2014 Non-Crows AFL Discussion

[NikkiNoo]

Tb-4 was paid for by essendon.

Tb-4 was sourced, manufactured & delivered for use by Essendon.

Essendon players signed consent forms to take tb-4 as dank thought it wasn't banned. Big whoops!

Tb-4 is no longer in stock at essendon.

Intent was there & can't prove the drugs intended to be injected were not injected as records mysteriously disappeared.

The dog ate my homework won't wash...

To add further to the above points

The standard of proof ASADA has to get to for them to 'prove' that a violation of the code took place is a lot less than most people think. This isn't a trial, it's a tribunal. Intent is enough for a ban under the ASADA/WADA code.

The consent forms listed thymosin which could be any of the various forms. Essendon have tried the it was thymododulin defence with a dodgy photoshop job of a vial, but like you said Kane, there appears to be proof of the sourcing, purchasing and delivering of TB4 to Essendon and a little issue of the drug regime of injections lining up with TB4 and not other forms of 'thymosin'.

Also players have to know what they took, that is one of their responsibilities under the code they agreed to abide by. Essendon maintain all along they don't know what it was, but it wasn't harmful or illegal while still not being able to apparently state exactly what it was.

 

[soberphobia]

To add further to the above points

The standard of proof ASADA has to get to for them to 'prove' that a violation of the code took place is a lot less than most people think. This isn't a trial, it's a tribunal. Intent is enough for a ban under the ASADA/WADA code.

The consent forms listed thymosin which could be any of the various forms. Essendon have tried the it was thymododulin defence with a dodgy photoshop job of a vial, but like you said Kane, there appears to be proof of the sourcing, purchasing and delivering of TB4 to Essendon and a little issue of the drug regime of injections lining up with TB4 and not other forms of 'thymosin'.

Also players have to know what they took, that is one of their responsibilities under the code they agreed to abide by. Essendon maintain all along they don't know what it was, but it wasn't harmful or illegal while still not being able to apparently state exactly what it was.

It is all a good conversation point. The wrongs and rights of a situation. Ultimately it will come down to the players and what they will accept. The AFL who is the biggest player will not want Essendon to have a ban but a significant fine or penalty will be acceptable. The competition being compromised will not be acceptable to the AFL which is trying to re-negotiate a TV deal. This will end up in a compromise deal with Essendon taking a few hits but not taking any fatal blows.

Call me a cynic if you will.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Well you can call me naive but I don't think the AFL have any jurisdiction over what penalties the Essendon players get, so their re-negotiating of the TV rights deal is irrelevant.

 

[cmndstab]

Well you can call me naive but I don't think the AFL have any jurisdiction over what penalties the Essendon players get, so their re-negotiating of the TV rights deal is irrelevant.

My understanding is that it is the AFL who will impose the penalties on Essendon. ASADA only get involved then if they think the penalties are insufficient, in the form of an appeal.

 

[footy4ever]

It is all a good conversation point. The wrongs and rights of a situation. Ultimately it will come down to the players and what they will accept. The AFL who is the biggest player will not want Essendon to have a ban but a significant fine or penalty will be acceptable. The competition being compromised will not be acceptable to the AFL which is trying to re-negotiate a TV deal. This will end up in a compromise deal with Essendon taking a few hits but not taking any fatal blows.

Call me a cynic if you will.

Not cynical at all. Very realistic.

I think it could go either way.

A) Players get off, which is what the AFL would want, and Essendon get fined which is what the AFL also want.

B) Players get matches, but with concessions, backdating of penalties, all players conveniently become available for selection just before the season starts.

It will all stink in the end.

 

[jenny61_99]

My understanding is that it is the AFL who will impose the penalties on Essendon. ASADA only get involved then if they think the penalties are insufficient, in the form of an appeal.

Asada make recommendation re the penalty, afl apply it. If afl adjust penalty as advised, asada or wada can appeal.

 

[PrideOf]

As mentioned over on the main board, this isn't about Essendon being found innocent.

If they get off, it's because they successfully hid evidence, argued about definitions, hired a great lawyer and their PR was first-class. For a party to claim such innocence that would be redeemed once all the evidence was out, they've done a stunning job in making sure it never saw the light of day.

There is a massive difference between innocent and found not guilty.

Personally, I'm expecting they'll get off, then we'll be subjected to a Press Conference with Hird and Little sitting there saying, "we've been vindicated, we told you we were innocent, it was always all about the players, we just want to move on and look forward blah blah blah."

 

[NikkiNoo]

It is all a good conversation point. The wrongs and rights of a situation. Ultimately it will come down to the players and what they will accept. The AFL who is the biggest player will not want Essendon to have a ban but a significant fine or penalty will be acceptable. The competition being compromised will not be acceptable to the AFL which is trying to re-negotiate a TV deal. This will end up in a compromise deal with Essendon taking a few hits but not taking any fatal blows.

Call me a cynic if you will.

The players have no say in it now that it is at Tribunal stage. The time for them to have a say in their penalty was at the Show Cause Notice stage which they said nothing about.

For the first time ever ASADA are leading the prosecution in a case like this and will be recommending the penalty to the Tribunal which is not the normal AFL tribunal but a lot more separate one. The AFL are not the biggest player. WADA are the biggest player and as the AFL is a signatory to the WADA code if they want to break from it they will jeopardise all that money they receive from the government for stadium upgrades, programs they run etc etc. The caveat for receiving this govt assistance money is that they are WADA signatories. WADA were very pissed at the lenient sentences given to the NRL players, which was a full 1 year sentence but backdated. The NRL players were involved in a doping system that ran for a couple of weeks mostly outside their club to a degree. The Essendon players were involved in a systematic doping program that ran from the club for 18 months. Their penalties should be more severe. This is the largest team doping prosecution under the WADA code in the world and the rest of the sporting world is watching very closely.

The competition won't be compromised because even if all the players receive lengthy bans Essendon will still be able to field a team due to the team sizes (and the AFL already is putting a contingency in place for them to have top up players).

 

[Mike Smyth]

Yeah I'm fairly certain players will get at least a year.

Nope they will get a 6 week slap on the wrist. If it was a self-sufficient non-Victorian club (i.e AFC, West Coast or Freo) then there would be 12 month suspensions handed out.

 

[footy4ever]

Nope they will get a 6 week slap on the wrist. If it was a self-sufficient non-Victorian club (i.e AFC, West Coast or Freo) then there would be 12 month suspensions handed out.

I hope you are completely wrong, but this is what I've maintained all along. I hope I'm also completely wrong.

 

[mattymac]

Yeah the AFL will do everything in its power to minimise the impact on the competition. Any punishment to the players will be wholly or mostly somehow 'served' before the season starts

 

[footy4ever]

NikkiNoo, where are you? I need someone to convince me that the offending Essendon players will be sitting in the stands for at least a season, including those who have run away to other clubs.

 

[fabs33]

NikkiNoo, where are you? I need someone to convince me that the offending Essendon players will be sitting in the stands for at least a season, including those who have run away to other clubs.

Sounded like "Scooby Doo, where are you?" in my head.

 

[Deaneus!]

The players have no say in it now that it is at Tribunal stage. The time for them to have a say in their penalty was at the Show Cause Notice stage which they said nothing about.

For the first time ever ASADA are leading the prosecution in a case like this and will be recommending the penalty to the Tribunal which is not the normal AFL tribunal but a lot more separate one. The AFL are not the biggest player. WADA are the biggest player and as the AFL is a signatory to the WADA code if they want to break from it they will jeopardise all that money they receive from the government for stadium upgrades, programs they run etc etc. The caveat for receiving this govt assistance money is that they are WADA signatories. WADA were very pissed at the lenient sentences given to the NRL players, which was a full 1 year sentence but backdated. The NRL players were involved in a doping system that ran for a couple of weeks mostly outside their club to a degree. The Essendon players were involved in a systematic doping program that ran from the club for 18 months. Their penalties should be more severe. This is the largest team doping prosecution under the WADA code in the world and the rest of the sporting world is watching very closely.

The competition won't be compromised because even if all the players receive lengthy bans Essendon will still be able to field a team due to the team sizes (and the AFL already is putting a contingency in place for them to have top up players).

I bet Ahmed Saad is watching closely.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Nope they will get a 6 week slap on the wrist. If it was a self-sufficient non-Victorian club (i.e AFC, West Coast or Freo) then there would be 12 month suspensions handed out.

Absolutely no chance Asada/Wada will accept a pathetic 6 week suspension. Guaranteed appeal.

As nikkinoo mentioned, if the Afl don't give a decent suspension period they can kiss goodbye to significant government funding.

 

[BACCS]

Anyone watch Danger in the Nutri Grain Sports Star Challenge that was up on the GC a few weeks ago? He won the comp along with Kurt Gidley from NRL

 

[Moonwatcher]

Anyone watch Danger in the Nutri Grain Sports Star Challenge that was up on the GC a few weeks ago? He won the comp along with Kurt Gidley from NRL

Maybe he has found a sport that he is good at

 

[DD#23]

Anyone watch Danger in the Nutri Grain Sports Star Challenge that was up on the GC a few weeks ago? He won the comp along with Kurt Gidley from NRL

just flicking through the good bits now, Patty pulls a few big numbers! guns it on the repeat sprints on the bike

EDIT: and Matt Poole runs a 14.1 in the beep test on sand freak.

 

[PrideOf]

Nope they will get a 6 week slap on the wrist. If it was a self-sufficient non-Victorian club (i.e AFC, West Coast or Freo) then there would be 12 month suspensions handed out.

When Essendon's penalties are handed down, I wonder what our club will get?

 

[PrideOf]

Sounded like "Scooby Doo, where are you?" in my head.

Nikki Nikki Noo, where are you ... great, now that will be in my head all day.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Nikki Nikki Noo, where are you ... great, now that will be in my head all day.

Ruh Roh?

 

[Scrotes2000]

As mentioned over on the main board, this isn't about Essendon being found innocent.

If they get off, it's because they successfully hid evidence, argued about definitions, hired a great lawyer and their PR was first-class.

The main thing I want to see come out of this is more focus put into guidelines/checks so it won't happen again. Have they looked into what they can do to prevent this kind of thing? Or is the whole fiasco just enough to make sure clubs are more careful from now on?

 

[PrideOf]

The main thing I want to see come out of this is more focus put into guidelines/checks so it won't happen again. Have they looked into what they can do to prevent this kind of thing? Or is the whole fiasco just enough to make sure clubs are more careful from now on?

It'll be like most things in the AFL. Many clubs are breaking the rules, but the AFL's view is to punish one as a warning for the others. The trick is not to be the one that gets caught.

Carlton: salary cap breaches
Essendon: PEDs and supplements
Melbourne: tanking
Adelaide: payments outside the cap

 

[DD#23]

Yeah the AFL will do everything in its power to minimise the impact on the competition. Any punishment to the players will be wholly or mostly somehow 'served' before the season starts

if that were to happen, at the VERY least they should be banned from having a preseason

 

[mattymac]

if that were to happen, at the VERY least they should be banned from having a preseason

Watch it drag on until pre-season is almost over and then "retrospective" sentences get handed down. Yes, all things AFL I am a cynic. I can't see the league letting one of the VFL princess clubs get properly punished. We've seen this already with their "draft sanctions" where they were removed from the first round then given back a first round pick so they wouldn't be hurt too much. Rotten to the core.