List Mgmt. 2014: The List

[bluelad]

Just a quick point regarding on field leadership and us being soft as butter... How impressive has Dunstan been for the Saints? That kid bleeds toughness and was captain of SA U18's. These are the kids we need to go for. Lets just hope Crippa turns out.

 

[LordLucifer]

We could certainly pry a late 2nd or early 3rd round pick for Robinson from a struggling club like Melbourne. Mclean would be a third round pick at best.

You are right about Robinson but we wouldn't get a box of Cheezels for McLean nowadays.

 

[LordLucifer]

We just re-signed Walker, could we really trade him?

(I'm not suggesting we do. I don't want to. Just asking if you're actually allowed to do that)

We can certainly trade him but I don't think it would be smart list management. Leave him in the forward line for the remainder of his career and it is one slot we won't have to worry about during the rebuild process.

 

[BM123]

You are right about Robinson but we wouldn't get a box of Cheezels for McLean nowadays.

Hard to argue with this.

 

[LordLucifer]

Armfield, Dennis – 3rd rounder (very doubtful)
Bell, Tom – 3rd rounder (doubtful)
Bootsma, Joshua – 3rd rounder (extremely doubtful)
Buckley, Dylan – 2nd rounder (not tradeable at present)
Byrne, Ciaran (R) nothing
Cachia, Jaryd (R) nothing
Carrazzo, Andrew 3rd rounder (no way, finished)
Casboult, Levi nothing (more than likely correct)
Cripps, Patrick – 1st rounder (not tradeable at present)
Curnow, Edward – 2nd rounder (no way, third at best)
Docherty, Sam – 2nd rounder (not tradeable at present)
Ellard, David – nothing
Everitt, Andrejs – 3rd rounder
Garlett, Jeff – 3rd rounder
Gibbs, Bryce – 1st rounder (more like second)
Giles, Cameron – 2nd rounder (not tradeable at present)
Graham, Nicholas – 2nd rounder (not tradeable at present)
Henderson, Lachlan – 1st rounder (not tradeable at present)
Holman, Nick 3rd rounder (not tradeable at present)
Jamison, Michael 1st rounder (dreaming !!)
Johnson, Blaine (R) nothing
Judd, Chris – 2nd rounder (highly doubtful)
Kreuzer, Matthew – 2nd rounder (????)
Lucas, Kane – 3rd rounder (be lucky to get a 4th)
McInnes, Andrew nothing
McLean, Brock nothing
Menzel, Troy 2nd rounder (not tradeable at present)
Murphy, Marc 1st rounder (might be more like a 2nd)
Reynolds, Luke (R) nothing
Robinson, Mitch – 3rd rounder (maybe)
Rowe, Sam – nothing
Scotland, Heath (R) nothing
Sheehan, Ciaran (R) nothing
Simpson, Kade - 3rd rounder
Temay, Tom nothing
Thomas, Dale 1st rounder (don't think so)
Tuohy, Zach 3d rounder (maybe)
Waite, Jarrad nothing
Walker, Andrew 2nd rounder
Warnock, Robert 3rd rounder (we couldn't even give him away)
Watson, Matthew 2nd rounder (3rd at best)
White, Simon nothing
Wood, Cameron (R) nothing
Yarran, Christopher 2nd rounder

Comments in italics, you have been very generous with your trade values.

 

[gbatman]

This is our list summed up in a way where we can see where the changes need to come from and be made. It's not pretty but it's not disastrous but we are on a cliff edge, we could easily go over and be a bottom 4 side if we do things wrong here like draft poorly or lose the coach.
Players capable of playing in a Premiership Side
Judd, Murphy, Henderson, Jamison, Simpson, Gibbs, Thomas, Walker.

These guys are our top players, our cream. They are not a very good cream compared to the top teams in the league's best but they are ok. Would likely get games in top 4 sides. Not enough Talls and onballers in this list to worry the better sides or enough players in this list in general.

Needs to be about 18 players in this list for us to challenge for a premiership.


Limbo
Kreuzer, Warnock.

When your midfield's up to it, your rucks are much of a muchness. Neither are stars, both offer very little in the air, Kreuzer offers a little at ground level. I've seen some very middle of the road rucks win premierships but it helps if you have a ruck who's also a quality footballer.


Players who might sneak into a premiership side
Yarran, Everitt, Tuohy, Carrazzo, Waite, Garlett

Mostly peripheral players, Carrazzo has had times where he's been in the top group, so has Waite and Garlett briefly. Yarran is pushing for that top group as is Tuohy. These guys might get a game in a top 4 team but would be fringe players at best.


Unlikely to be top 4 quality ever
Lucas, Watson, Robinson, Mclean, Rowe, Bell, Ellard, Casboult, White, Armfield, Curnow

Too slow, too soft, poorly skilled, too small, never achieve elite stats, never do a lot, often make mistakes, just no polish we've heard it all. These players play regularly for us and some are best 22 which says it all. Move them on at all costs because while they are capable players, they are poor footballers who aren't up to playing in a top side and most likely never will be. Just keeping good kids out of the team. If any club offers us a third round pick for any of these players we shouldn't think twice because they aren't worth a third round pick and would be doing us a favor.


Up and Comers who look good
Menzel, Buckley, Docherty, Giles, Holman, Graham, Cripps

Get these kids into the team and make a play for four years time. Other kids, free agents and trades will come in in the meantime, we need to back these guys and back Shane Rogers and Mick Malthouse to build a team capable of going all the way. They are our only hope at this stage.


Up and comers who need to do more
Bootsma, Temay, McInness

There is ability here, but they aren't doing enough. Get one or two from this group who make it and we are winning.


Probably too old to see our next Premiership
Judd, Simpson, Mclean, Waite, Carrazzo, Jamison, Walker
(Jamison, Walker and Simpson strike me as playing until their mid 30's maybe).

While they are playing good and there are no obvious replacements they need to stay to help the young players develop around them, if they are lucky some may be a part of a quality Carlton team but in reality will bow out at the beginning of a Carlton resurgence in four or five years time. Waite looks finished to me.

Rookies
Scotland - Should retire despite looking like he'd be able to play good footy, just keeping a kid out if he does play. Been a champion player.
Reynolds - Showing a bit.
Wood - Honest ruckman, nothing wrong with that, not the marking goal kicking ruckman we're looking for though.
Cachia - Just doesn't have the ability, won't make a top AFL team.
Johnson - Like the look of this kid. Watch this space.
Sheehan and Byrne - Have a bit to work on but are always a chance.


Cold hard truth
We are here because of two reasons:

1. Ratten's misjudgment of our list & players: Thought we were a shot at a flag some how, gave away draft picks for poor players like Mclean. Poor judgement of players saw minimal list turnover and unwilling to trade fringe players because he couldn't tell who was and who wasn't going to make it until they had played 100 odd games or been on the list for 5 or 6 years and had become worthless at trade time.

2. Wayne Hughes - Drafting history at Freo was poor, he blundered at Carlton. Early days had a lot of early picks, anyone could have gone to those drafts and picked half decent players and he did, never can we say we got the best player with our number 1 pick (Murphy our closest). Rarely picked players with second and third round draft picks who could actually play. When we improved our draft picks got higher and things got harder and Hughes was found out big time, barely picking top line players from 2009 onward in the ND and we are paying for it now. If you don't master the National Draft you will fail and we are failing. Sacked for good reason, one thing our club has got right.


Let Mick do what Mick does best, cultivate a list, play the kids, maybe finish lowly for a few seasons playing a young team, get some handy draft picks, trade heavily, prune the list heavily and turn the team inside out. Let Rogers show us what he and his team are made of, would love to see what he can do with early picks.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

This is our list summed up in a way where we can see where the changes need to come from and be made. It's not pretty but it's not disastrous but we are on a cliff edge, we could easily go over and be a bottom 4 side if we do things wrong here like draft poorly or lose the coach.
Players capable of playing in a Premiership Side
Judd, Murphy, Henderson, Jamison, Simpson, Gibbs, Thomas, Walker.

These guys are our top players, our cream. They are not a very good cream compared to the top teams in the league's best but they are ok. Would likely get games in top 4 sides. Not enough Talls and onballers in this list to worry the better sides or enough players in this list in general.

Needs to be about 18 players in this list for us to challenge for a premiership.


Limbo
Kreuzer, Warnock.

When your midfield's up to it, your rucks are much of a muchness. Neither are stars, both offer very little in the air, Kreuzer offers a little at ground level. I've seen some very middle of the road rucks win premierships but it helps if you have a ruck who's also a quality footballer.


Players who might sneak into a premiership side
Yarran, Everitt, Tuohy, Carrazzo, Waite, Garlett

Mostly peripheral players, Carrazzo has had times where he's been in the top group, so has Waite and Garlett briefly. Yarran is pushing for that top group as is Tuohy. These guys might get a game in a top 4 team but would be fringe players at best.


Unlikely to be top 4 quality ever
Lucas, Watson, Robinson, Mclean, Rowe, Bell, Ellard, Casboult, White, Curnow

Too slow, too soft, poorly skilled, too small, never achieve elite stats, never do a lot, often make mistakes, just no polish we've heard it all. These players play regularly for us and some are best 22 which says it all. Move them on at all costs because while they are capable players, they are poor footballers who aren't up to playing in a top side and most likely never will be. Just keeping good kids out of the team. If any club offers us a third round pick for any of these players we shouldn't think twice because they aren't worth a third round pick and would be doing us a favor.


Up and Comers who look good
Menzel, Buckley, Docherty, Giles, Holman, Graham, Cripps

Get these kids into the team and make a play for four years time. Other kids, free agents and trades will come in in the meantime, we need to back these guys and back Shane Rogers and Mick Malthouse to build a team capable of going all the way. They are our only hope at this stage.


Up and comers who need to do more
Bootsma, Temay, McInness

There is ability here, but they aren't doing enough. Get one or two from this group who make it and we are winning.


Probably too old to see our next Premiership
Judd, Simpson, Mclean, Waite, Carrazzo, Jamison, Walker
(Jamison, Walker and Simpson strike me as playing until their mid 30's maybe).

While they are playing good and there are no obvious replacements they need to stay to help the young players develop around them, if they are lucky some may be a part of a quality Carlton team but in reality will bow out at the beginning of a Carlton resurgence in four or five years time. Waite looks finished to me.

Rookies
Scotland - Should retire despite looking like he'd be able to play good footy, just keeping a kid out if he does play. Been a champion player.
Reynolds - Showing a bit.
Wood - Honest ruckman, nothing wrong with that, not the marking goal kicking ruckman we're looking for though.
Cachia - Just doesn't have the ability, won't make a top AFL team.
Johnson - Like the look of this kid. Watch this space.
Sheehan and Byrne - Have a bit to work on but are always a chance.


Cold hard truth
We are here because of two reasons:

1. Ratten's misjudgment of our list & players: Thought we were a shot at a flag some how, gave away draft picks for poor players like Mclean. Poor judgement of players saw minimal list turnover and unwilling to trade fringe players because he couldn't tell who was and who wasn't going to make it until they had played 100 odd games or been on the list for 5 or 6 years and had become worthless at trade time.

2. Wayne Hughes - Drafting history at Freo was poor, he blundered at Carlton. Early days had a lot of early picks, anyone could have gone to those drafts and picked half decent players and he did, never can we say we got the best player with our number 1 pick (Murphy our closest). Rarely picked players with second and third round draft picks who could actually play. When we improved our draft picks got higher and things got harder and Hughes was found out big time, barely picking top line players from 2009 onward in the ND and we are paying for it now. If you don't master the National Draft you will fail and we are failing. Sacked for good reason, one thing our club has got right.


Let Mick do what Mick does best, cultivate a list, play the kids, maybe finish lowly for a few seasons playing a young team, get some handy draft picks, trade heavily, prune the list heavily and turn the team inside out. Let Rogers show us what he and his team are made of, would love to see what he can do with early picks.

Agree with almost all your assessment, except Curnow. He was the 2nd best tagged in the comp last year, every club needs at least one lock down player.

 

[crizis]

Walker, Menzel, murphy, Judd, Simpson, Buckley, cripps, Henderson, armfield, bell, Waite, everitt, Thomas, jamison, casboult, carrazzo, kreuzer.

These are the only players that have both enough consistent skills/work ethic with the percentages varying. Excluding the youngsters and rookies. The rest need to be traded over the next 1,2 and 3 years for new blood.

 

[BM123]

Just a quick point regarding on field leadership and us being soft as butter... How impressive has Dunstan been for the Saints? That kid bleeds toughness and was captain of SA U18's. These are the kids we need to go for. Lets just hope Crippa turns out.

Cripps was VC of WA and Holman was captain of Vic metro from memory.

 

[thylacine60]

Pretty fair pedigrees. Mean nothing of course.

 

[The Edukator]

I'm loathe to write off of Watson yet. Needs a little more time.

Maybe I have tinted glasses on but he's one I hope for a lot.

 

[bluelad]

Cripps was VC of WA and Holman was captain of Vic metro from memory.

Nice, wasn't aware.

 

[thylacine60]

Your awareness level must LIFT!!

 

[gbatman]

Agree with almost all your assessment, except Curnow. He was the 2nd best tagged in the comp last year, every club needs at least one lock down player.

The way I see it if you can't play you tag, not always the way but Curnow is borderline in my opinion, was shocking the other night but wasn't alone. The way I see it we need to find out if Graham can play his role, if he can then maybe Curnow is worth something in a trade and we replace him with Graham. Never been impressed with how Curnow uses the ball, he Bell and Robinson just too many wasted opportunities there.

 

[bluelad]

Definitely the most embarrassing post on this forum that I've been apart of, I think some of the other boys on here would agree

I was actually thinking of Cachia when he was Co-captain with Scully in his jnr. days. If only he turned out something a little more. Interested to see him this yr.

 

[No1Suspect]

The way I see it if you can't play you tag, not always the way but Curnow is borderline in my opinion, was shocking the other night but wasn't alone. The way I see it we need to find out if Graham can play his role, if he can then maybe Curnow is worth something in a trade and we replace him with Graham. Never been impressed with how Curnow uses the ball, he Bell and Robinson just too many wasted opportunities there.

Graham isn't a tagger he is a ball winner, it wouldn't make sense to try and turn him into one.

Let him do what he does best and let the opposition worry about tagging him, if nick is going to replace anyone on our list it's McLean

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Graham isn't a tagger he is a ball winner, it wouldn't make sense to try and turn him into one.

Let him do what he does best and let the opposition worry about tagging him, if nick is going to replace anyone on our list it's McLean

Ryan Crowley is one of the most important players in the comp to his team, taggers are important which is why Curnow is a valuable asset. In saying this, plenty of great ball winning, high possession midfielders start there careers as taggers, so couldn't hurt to send Graham in and see how he goes.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

How anyone can make a judgement on Temay and Watson as not good enough at this stage is laughable

Someone like Bootsma yes, because he's been woeful at AFL level and rumour has it hasnt shown the commitment to improve (not following his diet)

Whereas Temay is a 2nd year pkayer who hasbt debuted yet (not surprising, hardly reason to throw him under the bus) and Watson (who as a young KPD has shown enough, key position players dont immediately make an impact and he's tracking nicely I think)

 

[No1Suspect]

Ryan Crowley is one of the most important players in the comp to his team, taggers are important which is why Curnow is a valuable asset. In saying this, plenty of great ball winning, high possession midfielders start there careers as taggers, so couldn't hurt to send Graham in and see how he goes.

Worked well for Gibbs mr fix it, Kruez up forward albeit injured now was really working well? how about lets not try and change the natural instinct our players have... Carrots and Curnow are our taggers we don't need another negating mid, Nick gets plenty of the pill and kicks goals as well, something our mids don't do enough of.

 

[LordLucifer]

I'm loathe to write off of Watson yet. Needs a little more time.

Maybe I have tinted glasses on but he's one I hope for a lot.

We all "hope" for them but at what stage do you have call it quits ??

Watson was picked up in the same draft as Mitchell & McCarthy and they were punted last year. Watson must be coming to the end of his realistic tenure at the club.

One of the biggest issues we have had at the club is holding on to players for an eternity in the misguided hope that they will come good. Nice theory but the problem for us is they never do. Hartlett & O'Keefe are two most recent examples where they were given contract extensions unnecessarily and they never repaid the faith.

Would this happen at any of the other better performing clubs ?? I think not, cannot see Hawthorn holding on to someone who has struggled to perform or earn some senior selection over a four-year period.

If we punt them and they end up elsewhere and do well, then that's our loss because we were incapable of bringing the best out of them. Hanging on to a player in the knowledge that they will never make it just clogs up a spot on the list that could go to another more serious contender.

'Fortune favours the brave" - its an old cliché but it couldn't be more apt when applied to our player management.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Menzel, Grayham, Cripps, Docherty Giles and Watson will be our core in 5 years time

Buckley, Temay, Holman, all have positions in the future

And they'll be joining the foundation of

Kreuzer, Gibbs, Murphy, Yarran, Lucas, Garlett, Henderson, Touhy, Curnow

At this stage our first priority should be to figure out what the hell Lucas is going to do. Is he tradeable, do we persist? He's the only one in that middle age brackey who should be the foundation for the future who we don't know about. The others will all be top 15 players in our side in 4 or 5 years, but Lucas we have no idea about

Then our second priority is to begin to blood our young core, of Cripps and Giles and Docherty? Menzel is already proving he has what it takes and benefiting from the experience. What we dont want to do is force these boys to play too big too early. Gibbs and Murphu and even Kreuzers development has been stunted by coming in and having to do it all from day 1. Murphy has been tagged since about his first game and Gibbs was our mr fixit, ruining his centre work. Thankfully we'll have Murphy and Gibbs (fingers crossed) for 5-8 more years to blood our youth in the proper way. Look at Geelong with players like Stokes, Christensen etc becoming great because they were protected by a midfield of Bartel, Corey, Kelly and Johnson

 

[BluStreak]

Maybe we are trying to fit Watson into a position that is not best for him. Rather than being our CHB or FB how about our 3rd tall.
He reads the play well and is developing into backline general, he is using his voice etc, he needs more games before we decide on his future.
Leave Jamison as our FB, Henderson as our roaming CHB and continue to groom Giles as a replacement for them.
Solidify the back lines with Simpson, Everitt and Buckley

Casboult needs to play (again to determine what we get from him) in the forward line (prefer FF) with Waite CHF, Walker, Menzel, Garlett & Kruezer.

Every player in Navy Blue to fly the flag.
Why are Murphy and Buckley having to sort out their own battles?
When the team comes together to protect, defend each other then we will see a team (imo) playing as a team.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Maybe we are trying to fit Watson into a position that is not best for him. Rather than being our CHB or FB how about our 3rd tall.
He reads the play well and is developing into backline general, he is using his voice etc, he needs more games before we decide on his future.
quote]

Sounds remarkably similar to what we used to say about Thornton.

 

[Deep Blue]

Just a quick point regarding on field leadership and us being soft as butter... How impressive has Dunstan been for the Saints? That kid bleeds toughness and was captain of SA U18's. These are the kids we need to go for. Lets just hope Crippa turns out.

Yeah, like the look of Dunstan for sure; very happy with Crippa though - great game on the weekend.

 

[etsal1]

Just a quick point regarding on field leadership and us being soft as butter... How impressive has Dunstan been for the Saints? That kid bleeds toughness and was captain of SA U18's. These are the kids we need to go for. Lets just hope Crippa turns out.

From what I saw from Crippa on Sunday. Leadership & playing your guts out, is not not something we will have to worry about with him.