Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[Mondyboy]

Too Little too late

Maybe.


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[thylacine60]

Played 23 AFL games. Half the time dropped and half the time injured since being here. Cant use youth as an excuse as mature age recruit.

Can't find how many games he has played in the VFL. 9 for 2017 but earlier years?

You want the Boek to kick on?

God help me I'm open to it on what I've seen of late.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I honestly hope not.

We are not retaining Gibbs for the chance of getting a flag while he's around. We retained him purely as experience and to give us a core of maturity to enable us to play the kids around.

Gibbs and Murphy are not getting a flag at Carlton. Accept that and move on.

Last year we valued Gibbs experience more than what Adelaide were offering to pay in exchange. If we had have traded him last year the kids we played this year would have been flogged from pillar to post.

We've got a solid 20 more games into all of our kids this year. If we were to also obtain Kellys services, Gibbs experience suddenly become superfluous to needs when weighted against his trade value of a mid first rounder.

Getting Kelly in enables a trade of Gibbs. If trading Gibbs gets us pick 12, and we can trade [4 and 12] to GWS for say.. [Kelly and 23], then that is a massive win when our window opens early next decade.

Didnt ask for your trade Gibbs spiel have seen it more than enough . Was simply stating the facts Gibbs has a 5 year contract with 2 to run so the clubs thinking is clearly at odds to yours....

 

[ODNBlue]

I actually disagree that Dusty has no earning capacity post-footy. With the right management support he does have commercial value. Kids love him, and he played for the biggest Victorian club. I don't accept that it's all now and nothing later. Agree the variable is some of his scaly mates and whether he can keep it on the straight and narrow, but he's actually managed pretty well given his background.

He's terrible with the kids (personal experience). He has the personality of a shoebox (personal experience). When his career is done, he'll fade into obscurity, most likely only punctuated by his arrest.

 

[F_therest]

I know this sounds a bit negative but please let's not resign Boekhurst for two more years.

Yes, in two games (only 2) he has shown some good bits of play. Bits and pieces. In others and over the years he has been here, he has shown mostly horror form, scared outside, cant hold feet, cant take a contested grab, hardly sticks a tackle, runs the boundary as close as you can, and poor kicking. Yes, he can do these things for 2/3 games to earn a 300-400k contract...but he cant sustain it.

The guy is out of contract and what we have seen this year is his absolute best. He is close enough to peak AFL age as we took him at an older age. His body wont get much bigger from here. Please, lets not fall into his trap of trying his absolute hardest for 3 matches and then have him on our list for 2 more years. Like Buckley, he gets ragdolled and cant hold his feet in any useful situation. He cant think through things like a Fisher who is so mentally quick he hardly gets caught.

We should thank him and he can thrive back in the WAFL. Wayne Hughes, again, **** you very much.

When looking to retain a player you have to look at a decent body of work. He just doesnt have that. LJ was a change of position and a larger stretch of games...and is also still a risk come the new season that he might revert now that he has got a contract.

Go baggers and sign Cuningham fast. Love that guy. hits hard, can kick.

Firstly, he's shown some good signs in more than 2 games...but the last few have definitely been his best. They have actually been very good.

From what i've seen he can keep his feet, he's been sticking tackles lately and his kicking has been good and penetrating.
Yes he may not have worked as hard as maybe he should have previously, but the same has been said about Pickett. If the penny has dropped we could have a real player here. Jones himself has also said he is far fitter and stronger now than his previous self.

Also, the type of outside player he is, that type of player was always going to struggle in our poor side that played a very slow, defensive game.
It's not a coincidence that we've seen him play his best games for the club lately when we've been playing a faster game style, which we will continue to do next year and beyond.

Our midfield is also very shallow, it won't be fixed just in this off-season. Can't see the harm in giving him even a 1 year deal...he'll have to take it.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

God help me I'm open to it on what I've seen of late.

That's your problem right there. There is no god... unless you are talking about Ablett senior.

Boekhorst's future is in some hack country town where the annual competition is to hurl the skinny guy over a boundary fence instead of a discus. Longest throw wins a can of fosters and a date with their own mum.

 

[thylacine60]

I did not know that.

 

[F_therest]

Too Little too late

Why? Jones' resurgence happened very late given his 3 year contract and Lamb as well.

 

[Iamcarlton]

Why? Jones' resurgence happened very late given his 3 year contract and Lamb as well.

Agree , Boltons coaching influence on some of our players is only just starting to kick in . Not sure who or how many but it may be wise to hold fire on mass sackings for 1 more year .

 

[djw1952]

Apart from J.Brown mentioning it on the couch a couple months back, there has been next to no media noise about Carlton being a major player in the Josh Kelly race.

Am I just being negative or am I right in thinking we are buckley's chance of recruiting him?

Marc Smurf3 said recently that he will either be at GWS or Carlton next year.......choice between having finals success immediately, or coming back home for family reasons. I think that is how he put it............

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Not always an accurate source unless it comes direct from the Club.

Some 'paid employee journalists' aren't always right.

Would you expect the AFL / journalist to correct any mistakes?

 

[Malifice]

If we managed to get Kelly and Hopper imo it changes everything.

No it doesn't. I don't know if you've been listening to the coach this year, but we are on a journey. We will not deviate from the roadmap. Green shoots. Yada yada.

The plan is to get in as many talented under 23 year-old players as we can, with a window that opens 2020 onwards, looking for a period of sustained success thereafter. Getting in talented under 23 year-old players does not change the plan; it is the plan.

Getting in Kelly improves our chances of sustained success from the start of next decade. It also provides a core of experience, in enabling us to trade Gibbs and get in even more talented under 23 year-old players.

The next 2 to 3 years are all about list management, recruiting and development (a journey) to put on the park the best available young list at the start of the 2020 season, to enable us to have a period of sustained success throughout the next decade.

We won't be compromising that plan to retain senior players to try to pinch an earlier flag.

It's going to be a lot easier to win a premiership with three near A graders in Murphy, Gibbs and Kruezer then it will be later on when they are all retired.

Those three players are largely only still in the side to provide a core of experience to build the kids around. They will almost certainly not play in our next flag assault aside from being there to help develop the kids during the journey.

I'm surprised we're now two years into this reset, and I'm still reminding people of this fact.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

We turned down pick 13 last year, why would we agree to a similar pick in a weaker draft?

We turned down 13 and Jarryd Lyons.
As I understood it, we would have taken 13 and either McGovern or Cameron.

 

[Malifice]

Didnt ask for your trade Gibbs spiel have seen it more than enough .

Cool. We're done talking then.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

No it doesn't. I don't know if you've been listening to the coach this year, but we are on a journey. We will not deviate from the roadmap. Green shoots. Yada yada.

The plan is to get in as many talented under 23 year-old players as we can, with a window that opens 2020 onwards, looking for a period of sustained success thereafter. Getting in talented under 23 year-old players does not change the plan; it is the plan.

Getting in Kelly improves our chances of sustained success from the start of next decade. It also provides a core of experience, in enabling us to trade Gibbs and get in even more talented under 23 year-old players.

The next 2 to 3 years are all about list management, recruiting and development (a journey) to put on the park the best available young list at the start of the 2020 season, to enable us to have a period of sustained success throughout the next decade.

We won't be compromising that plan to retain senior players to try to pinch an earlier flag.



Those three players are largely only still in the side to provide a core of experience to build the kids around. They will almost certainly not play in our next flag assault aside from being there to help develop the kids during the journey.

I'm surprised we're now two years into this reset, and I'm still reminding people of this fact.

That's because the coach knows we can't get both Kelly and Hopper. If those two players came in and we could nab someone like Gaff next year then there is no reason why you can't win a grand final with those three players. It would actually be easier to then trying to find three players to replace them in the future. All trading Gibbs would do is give us another 18 year old who is probably statistically a 50/50 chance of being above average.

 

[blue healer]

I honestly hope not.

We are not retaining Gibbs for the chance of getting a flag while he's around. We retained him purely as experience and to give us a core of maturity to enable us to play the kids around.

Gibbs and Murphy are not getting a flag at Carlton. Accept that and move on.

Last year we valued Gibbs experience more than what Adelaide were offering to pay in exchange. If we had have traded him last year the kids we played this year would have been flogged from pillar to post.

We've got a solid 20 more games into all of our kids this year. If we were to also obtain Kellys services, Gibbs experience suddenly become superfluous to needs when weighted against his trade value of a mid first rounder.

Getting Kelly in enables a trade of Gibbs. If trading Gibbs gets us pick 12, and we can trade [4 and 12] to GWS for say.. [Kelly and 23], then that is a massive win when our window opens early next decade.

I get that you want Gibbs out but 2 years ago what odds would you have given that Bob Murphy would be still at the Bulldogs (albeit injured) when they won a premiership?

If those running the club think we are not a chance of a flag (with or without Gibbs) in 3 years time then why the **** are they even bothering.

 

[Red Bull]

No it doesn't. I don't know if you've been listening to the coach this year, but we are on a journey. We will not deviate from the roadmap. Green shoots. Yada yada.

The plan is to get in as many talented under 23 year-old players as we can, with a window that opens 2020 onwards, looking for a period of sustained success thereafter. Getting in talented under 23 year-old players does not change the plan; it is the plan.

Getting in Kelly improves our chances of sustained success from the start of next decade. It also provides a core of experience, in enabling us to trade Gibbs and get in even more talented under 23 year-old players.

The next 2 to 3 years are all about list management, recruiting and development (a journey) to put on the park the best available young list at the start of the 2020 season, to enable us to have a period of sustained success throughout the next decade.

We won't be compromising that plan to retain senior players to try to pinch an earlier flag.



Those three players are largely only still in the side to provide a core of experience to build the kids around. They will almost certainly not play in our next flag assault aside from being there to help develop the kids during the journey.

I'm surprised we're now two years into this reset, and I'm still reminding people of this fact.

I'm surprised you are surprised ...

 

[blue healer]

He's terrible with the kids (personal experience). He has the personality of a shoebox (personal experience). When his career is done, he'll fade into obscurity, most likely only punctuated by his arrest.

Should have the money to post bail though.

 

[Arr0w]

As much, as we would all enjoy the "emotional nourishment" of Murphy, Gibbs and MK being part of a flag at Carlton, I am afraid it just won't happen, especially Murphy.

Unless of course we do a Hawks or Dogs and win one ahead of schedule

 

[Blue For Life]

Apart from J.Brown mentioning it on the couch a couple months back, there has been next to no media noise about Carlton being a major player in the Josh Kelly race.

Am I just being negative or am I right in thinking we are buckley's chance of recruiting him?

I think the fact that there has been no noise coming out of the CFC, is a sign of maturity.
The club under Bolts and SOS, are keeping their cards close to their chest.
Reason being is there are to many scenarios that have to play out.
Are we into every talented player requesting a trade, in contract or even not contemplating change?
Yes we would be enquiring.
Have some trades been agreed on already, no matter what the CFC would be all over it.
Say nothing, be all over every possibility and confirm only when the trade has been completed is the professional way.
After all is said and done this year SOS and co will have earned their money and members/ supporters will be pleasantly surprised and happily with the outcome with the new Blues players.

 

[Malifice]

I get that you want Gibbs out but 2 years ago what odds would you have given that Bob Murphy would be still at the Bulldogs (albeit injured) when they won a premiership?

Bugger all odds.

But importantly the Bulldogs didn't change their drafting strategy. They retained a handful of experienced players, but traded most of them out or let them walk as free agents.

It wasn't a case that they traded for Boyd and then all of a sudden they decided to load up for a flag. They just got lucky and pinched one early.

We might get lucky and pinch one early as well. My point above was we shouldn't be changing our drafting strategy (getting in as many talented under 23 year-old kids as we can) simply because we managed to get in two talented under 23 year-old kids in one trade period.

If those running the club think we are not a chance of a flag (with or without Gibbs) in 3 years time then why the **** are they even bothering.

We are on a journey. We will not deviate from the roadmap. Green shoots.

It's bad enough Bolton has to say this every single press conference, I find myself repeating it every second post I make as well.

We are engaged on a total reset of the list. We need to get in kids, then get those kids to 100+ games as soon as possible while avoiding floggings along the way.

We are literally pretty much half way through that reset. We have another one year to go (officially), but more than likely it will be two or three (including free agency and list development post recruitment).

We are retaining an experienced core of players to give the kids something to play around and to stop them from getting flogged every week.

Melbourne made the mistake 10 years ago of gutting their list of experience. It's taken this long for them to recover.

 

[Malifice]

Should have the money to post bail though.

Ben cousins likes this.

 

[1981]

Firstly, he's shown some good signs in more than 2 games...but the last few have definitely been his best. They have actually been very good.

From what i've seen he can keep his feet, he's been sticking tackles lately and his kicking has been good and penetrating.
Yes he may not have worked as hard as maybe he should have previously, but the same has been said about Pickett. If the penny has dropped we could have a real player here. Jones himself has also said he is far fitter and stronger now than his previous self.

Also, the type of outside player he is, that type of player was always going to struggle in our poor side that played a very slow, defensive game.
It's not a coincidence that we've seen him play his best games for the club lately when we've been playing a faster game style, which we will continue to do next year and beyond.

Our midfield is also very shallow, it won't be fixed just in this off-season. Can't see the harm in giving him even a 1 year deal...he'll have to take it.

Makes mistakes under pressure

 

[thylacine60]

you mean like every player on the list?

 

[Pafloyul]

Didnt ask for your trade Gibbs spiel have seen it more than enough . Was simply stating the facts Gibbs has a 5 year contract with 2 to run so the clubs thinking is clearly at odds to yours....

Which was obviously put in place before we started the rebuild. I don't like all this 'keep all our decent players and bring more in by trading away early draft selections' spiel that's resurfacing, it's so very 'old Carlton'.