Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[SkyhorseTamer]

Ross Lyon's team WAS stacked with them and they fell short because of it.

I really don't want to read people sprouting about how we need to hold onto "depth players" and then follow up in an in-match thread calling for those same players to be banished for ever as soon as possible because they are not up to it.

It comes across as an ever repeating circular discussion that bores the bejesus out of me.

I accept that there will be players in positions 31-40 who may not be the first picked or relied on but there really needs to be a change in the mindset of supporters about this if they want to be more successful onfield and finals.

Umm. Supporters can have whatever mindset they want. They don't run the list management department.

 

[LordLucifer]

Umm. Supporters can have whatever mindset they want. They don't run the list management department.

Thank god for that too !!

 

[Davey33]

Strange - bizarre actually - you're not interested in the views of women posters.

well well, didnt quite realize the storm i kicked up....please accept my sincerest apologies for any offense caused- NONE was obviously intended, am posting from NYC where it's the middle of the night so forgive me if not all my posts are perfectly executed....

 

[thylacine60]

hardly a storm - how hard is inclusiveness?

 

[Davey33]

You really need to have watched his VFL games, he's struggled this year. Whereas Graham has done well in the VFL and you need to reward form not favouritism.

well seems like that might have changed this week:
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2017-07-26/vfl-player-review-round-14

but in a year where we've lacked experienced players who could have a run through the middle and particularly tag I think he would've added alot if played more often.
About the VFL form thing, could just be one of those things that when he gets on the grOUND IN the bigtime he hits his straps , i mean he's played 130+ games and had some really good games before injury last yr ( not 2/3 years ago)also

 

[Jimmae]

soo he WAS fit and then became unfitter?

He was fit enough for juniors, then busted his foot and hasn't really lifted his standard since.

Fit enough to make a difference in pre-season but wasn't putting in as much between games so got found out in the season proper. If people are right about his diet he doesn't deserve another contract.

That said, something's changed in the last few weeks, so hopefully he's had that wake-up call already.

 

[Weiterbot23]

He was fit enough for juniors, then busted his foot and hasn't really lifted his standard since.

Fit enough to make a difference in pre-season but wasn't putting in as much between games so got found out in the season proper. If people are right about his diet he doesn't deserve another contract.

That said, something's changed in the last few weeks, so hopefully he's had that wake-up call already.

Go on...

 

[Jimmae]

Go on...

Go back a page

 

[Aphrodite]

This is not the SRP Board.

Thread has been cleaned up.

 

[Keyza]

I wouldn't complain if the AFL gave us a priority pick, but I don't think it's good for the game.

If they made the rules clear on what triggered one then teams would tank for them.

If they keep it a secret then everyone will always feel hard done by when they don't get one.

They will look at a range of things, not just wins and losses.
Brisbane in part received one last year due to them lacking first round players on their list and how many players that they had lost in recent years.
Based on the second part, look at the quality senior players we have lost, many more than Brisbane have.
Supporters from other clubs sit back and makes jokes about our players leaving, and the same will probably happen again this year. Yet they don't think we should get any help either.
If a club that has beaten us 5 out of the last 6 times we have played them get a PP then why shouldn't we?

 

[Arr0w]

They will look at a range of things, not just wins and losses.
Brisbane in part received one last year due to them lacking first round players on their list and how many players that they had lost in recent years.
Based on the second part, look at the quality senior players we have lost, many more than Brisbane have.
Supporters from other clubs sit back and makes jokes about our players leaving, and the same will probably happen again this year. Yet they don't think we should get any help either.
If a club that has beaten us 5 out of the last 6 times we have played them get a PP then why shouldn't we?

We didn't lose them (Apart from Waite & Bell), we either let them go or moved them on, through poor People/List Management

Betts - Wanted slightly more money, $50K a year I believe and we said no, then gave Daisy much more than the contract Eddie signed at the Crows
Sauce - Wanted more opportunities, after we traded for Warnock
Robinson & Garlett - Were moved on, we know the reasons why
Grigg - Swap Collins for him, because Ratten didn't rate him

That is a lot different than players wanting out of Brisbane

 

[reubsblues]

Just looking at the draw and i doubt we will win another game but i can see north and Brisbane both winning 1 or 2 and they play each other in the last round so id say we finish second last at best that give us pick 2 so if kelly nominates us do we give it up for kelly or do we manufacture up something else to get kelly? I suppose it all comes down to weather gibbs stays or goes as well

 

[Pafloyul]

Ross Lyon's team WAS stacked with them and they fell short because of it.

I really don't want to read people sprouting about how we need to hold onto "depth players" and then follow up in an in-match thread calling for those same players to be banished for ever as soon as possible because they are not up to it.

It comes across as an ever repeating circular discussion that bores the bejesus out of me.

I accept that there will be players in positions 31-40 who may not be the first picked or relied on but there really needs to be a change in the mindset of supporters about this if they want to be more successful onfield and finals.

Agreed, the more we (read 'the club' as a whole) argue ourselves into thinking we can't do without them, the more those types breed like rabbits. We started getting out of that way of thinking by the time of the last trade/draft period. Now it has come back with a vengeance now that it looks like we mightn't top or even equal last year's effort. It's protectionism resurfacing.

 

[katmanblue]

Passenger 57?

White man cant jump

On SM-N920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[therubbernub]

Agreed, the more we (read 'the club' as a whole) argue ourselves into thinking we can't do without them, the more those types breed like rabbits. We started getting out of that way of thinking by the time of the last trade/draft period. Now it has come back with a vengeance now that it looks like we mightn't top or even equal last year's effort. It's protectionism resurfacing.

On the one hand you have the people that believe that we should be able to fill our list up with lynch's , kelly's, betts's, rance's et al. And on the other hand you have those that think that you stop once you get around 15 good to great players.
The former are unrealistic as there will never be a salary cap big enough, and to most modern days supporters, this is pretty obvious and not contestable.
The later are busy building there ideal paper sides and thinking that good depth players that can play a role are fine as they will be lifted by the rest of the team in the top 15 players.
But it is stating the obvious, however that there are injuries and player fatigue to account for. So instead of needing just 15 good to great players , the figure is closer to 20-25. Then the decision making comes down to "where do we need that depth of good to very good players? " Again, obviously -it is the midfield- because the midfield forms the largest group of players in the team structure , and because of the amount of wear and tear that midfielders subject their body to. Todays running game dictates that there are 6-7 midfielders of quality in your team -of which at least 4 need to be close to elite if you want a chance at the premiership. But you can extend the numbers to 10-11 quality midfielders to allow for attrition during the year. It is however virtually impossible IMO to extend the numbers of near elite midfielders beyond 4 due to salary cap balance. If 1 or more of any clubs top midfielders goes down for the season then it is nearly impossible to progress far in the finals. When a club like carlton with its young developing midfield, loses a player of the calibre of Cripps (Murphy last year) it becomes even harder for the rest of the players to pick up the slack. In our case 2 of our top 4 are now out for the season when Ed is taken into account.
I know its arguable that our top 4 mids: Cripps, Murphy, Gibbs, Ed are near elite but it is instructive to look at our results against highly rated teams with these 4 up and running eg GWS Swans, crows and demons. We can compete with the best teams on our day, which tells me that our top midfielders are nearly good enough. Surely adding Kelly would put the issue beyond doubt that out top 4 mids were more that competitive.
If we go with say 11 quality mids being required (4 elite)
1 Murphy
2 Gibbs
3 Cripps
4 Kelly
5 Ed
6 Kreuzer
7 Cuningham
8 Fisher
9 SPS
10 ?
11 ?

So if we take the view that we get Kelly (no certainty) and we retain Gibbs (no certainty) then, we are ok for elite midfield talent next year. What needs to be remembered of course is that those near elite mids are required to get you to top 4 only if you have the depth of good mids below them. I see that Cuningham . Fisher , SPS have what it takes and will certainly have a quantum leap in output with another preseason behind them. I am quietly confident that we can include them in 7,8 and 9 positions. Which leaves us 2 mids short but only of the level of "good" not elite.
The question is with regard to 10 and 11. Are there players on our list that are capable of moving into those positions, as long as they have the quality above them to allow them to perform a role. So now we get back to whether players of the ilk such as the following

Kerridge. Is showing signs . Has stepped up during ed and Cripps absence. Obviously not at their level, but possibly good enough for position 10
Graham. Not sure. But worth giving another year to see

Or can the following defenders be repurposed
Docherty. Can play midfield, but is the cost to the defensive structure too great?
Byrne. hard as a cats head. i would love to see him trialed as a Mid
Williamson. Definitely has the poise and disposal to take a step into the midfield

Or Forwards
Charlie. Like Docherty, definitely capable, but is the opportunity cost too high?
Wright. Probably needed in the forward line to kick goals
Lamb. I have liked his ability to spot targets going into our F50
Thomas . can provide the running

Others
Boekhorst. maybe
Polson. maybe

All of the above mentioned players have claims for survival on our list as midfield contributors . There are some that dont. I feel that those not mentioned will be delisted (not protected)

Buckley
Armfield
Gorringe
Smedts
Jaksch
Palmer
JGM
Galucci

 

[rp84]

On the one hand you have the people that believe that we should be able to fill our list up with lynch's , kelly's, betts's, rance's et al. And on the other hand you have those that think that you stop once you get around 15 good to great players.
The former are unrealistic as there will never be a salary cap big enough, and to most modern days supporters, this is pretty obvious and not contestable.
The later are busy building there ideal paper sides and thinking that good depth players that can play a role are fine as they will be lifted by the rest of the team in the top 15 players.
But it is stating the obvious, however that there are injuries and player fatigue to account for. So instead of needing just 15 good to great players , the figure is closer to 20-25. Then the decision making comes down to "where do we need that depth of good to very good players? " Again, obviously -it is the midfield- because the midfield forms the largest group of players in the team structure , and because of the amount of wear and tear that midfielders subject their body to. Todays running game dictates that there are 6-7 midfielders of quality in your team -of which at least 4 need to be close to elite if you want a chance at the premiership. But you can extend the numbers to 10-11 quality midfielders to allow for attrition during the year. It is however virtually impossible IMO to extend the numbers of near elite midfielders beyond 4 due to salary cap balance. If 1 or more of any clubs top midfielders goes down for the season then it is nearly impossible to progress far in the finals. When a club like carlton with its young developing midfield, loses a player of the calibre of Cripps (Murphy last year) it becomes even harder for the rest of the players to pick up the slack. In our case 2 of our top 4 are now out for the season when Ed is taken into account.
I know its arguable that our top 4 mids: Cripps, Murphy, Gibbs, Ed are near elite but it is instructive to look at our results against highly rated teams with these 4 up and running eg GWS Swans, crows and demons. We can compete with the best teams on our day, which tells me that our top midfielders are nearly good enough. Surely adding Kelly would put the issue beyond doubt that out top 4 mids were more that competitive.
If we go with say 11 quality mids being required (4 elite)
1 Murphy
2 Gibbs
3 Cripps
4 Kelly
5 Ed
6 Kreuzer
7 Cuningham
8 Fisher
9 SPS
10 ?
11 ?

So if we take the view that we get Kelly (no certainty) and we retain Gibbs (no certainty) then, we are ok for elite midfield talent next year. What needs to be remembered of course is that those near elite mids are required to get you to top 4 only if you have the depth of good mids below them. I see that Cuningham . Fisher , SPS have what it takes and will certainly have a quantum leap in output with another preseason behind them. I am quietly confident that we can include them in 7,8 and 9 positions. Which leaves us 2 mids short but only of the level of "good" not elite.
The question is with regard to 10 and 11. Are there players on our list that are capable of moving into those positions, as long as they have the quality above them to allow them to perform a role. So now we get back to whether players of the ilk such as the following

Kerridge. Is showing signs . Has stepped up during ed and Cripps absence. Obviously not at their level, but possibly good enough for position 10
Graham. Not sure. But worth giving another year to see

Or can the following defenders be repurposed
Docherty. Can play midfield, but is the cost to the defensive structure too great?
Byrne. hard as a cats head. i would love to see him trialed as a Mid
Williamson. Definitely has the poise and disposal to take a step into the midfield

Or Forwards
Charlie. Like Docherty, definitely capable, but is the opportunity cost too high?
Wright. Probably needed in the forward line to kick goals
Lamb. I have liked his ability to spot targets going into our F50
Thomas . can provide the running

Others
Boekhorst. maybe
Polson. maybe

All of the above mentioned players have claims for survival on our list as midfield contributors . There are some that dont. I feel that those not mentioned will be delisted (not protected)

Buckley
Armfield
Gorringe
Smedts
Jaksch
Palmer
JGM
Galucci

Good summary. I'm not quite sure we will have 7 comes off the senior list, though we might. We need to find space for two to three trades, one DFA, and probably 3 draft picks. Do we need to upgrade ASOS? Probably. Going through that, we need up to 8 spots. Would think there is a chance of Boek swap for Balic, so that is one spot for one trade.

I would think Buckley, Army, Gorringe, Jacksch and Palmer all come off the senior list. Smedts is also likely. Still need one more senior list spot.

If Gibbs goes, as does Levi, we have our spots.

 

[Neadsy83]

Good summary. I'm not quite sure we will have 7 comes off the senior list, though we might. We need to find space for two to three trades, one DFA, and probably 3 draft picks. Do we need to upgrade ASOS? Probably. Going through that, we need up to 8 spots. Would think there is a chance of Boek swap for Balic, so that is one spot for one trade.

I would think Buckley, Army, Gorringe, Jacksch and Palmer all come off the senior list. Smedts is also likely. Still need one more senior list spot.

If Gibbs goes, as does Levi, we have our spots.

Smedts and Palmer are both contracted for 2018, we still have another 18 players coming out of contract including Cunners! I'd say there will be 8 list changes minimum..

 

[rp84]

Smedts and Palmer are both contracted for 2018, we still have another 18 players coming out of contract including Cunners! I'd say there will be 8 list changes minimum..

Who else do you see going off the senior list? Didn't know about Smedts and Palmer still being contracted. That makes it very tight.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

If we manage to swap boekhorst for balic I'll eat my own poo.

 

[HBF]

Fitness.

100% this.
Needs to get games of footy under his belt.
Suspect he'll play more AFL footy next year.

 

[Navara79]

If we manage to swap boekhorst for balic I'll eat my own poo.

Seriously? Why even say that?

 

[Blue__Balls]

Who else do you see going off the senior list? Didn't know about Smedts and Palmer still being contracted. That makes it very tight.

My opinion only:

Gone in 2017
Buckley (del)
Jaksch (del)
White (del/ret)
Armfield (ret)
Gorringe (del)
Casboult (FA)?
Gibbs (Trd)?

Galluci (del)
Sheehan (del)
Korchek (del)
Glass-McCasker (del)

7 from the senior list, 4 rookies.

(EDIT: Boekhorst for Balic would be a great result too, but if they don't want him I expect he'll stay for another year on minimum wage and we'll send Freo a third or fourth rounder).

 

[HBF]

If we manage to swap boekhorst for balic I'll eat my own poo.

Its been quoted now ST.
Good luck.

 

[therubbernub]

Smedts and Palmer are both contracted for 2018, we still have another 18 players coming out of contract including Cunners! I'd say there will be 8 list changes minimum..

Didnt Palmer sign a new 2 year deal with GWS ending in 2017?

 

[rp84]

If we manage to swap boekhorst for balic I'll eat my own poo.

I want a youtube video of this