Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[HBF]

Carlton offer Levi 1.2 million over 3 years and Levi knocked it back. Carlton (rightfully) won't offer any more.

http://aflnation.com.au/2017/08/13/1758/

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out Cas.

 

[HARKER]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

 

[BluesRule]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

If Casboult nets us a second round pick we start with a pick in each round then it is up to SOS.

Read that Kreuzer is still uncontracted on the weekend. What has happened to that trigger clause/renegotiation?

 

[Iamcarlton]

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out Cas.

With the salary cap going up significantly and if 400 is indeed the correct figure i dont blame Casboult for holding out given he is a FA . Probably depends on how much we value his contribution to the ruck department as well which has allowed Kruezer to have his best season ever . With that in mind id be offering more than 400 given 3 years at 400 would get us around pick 40 ? possibly lower (Maybe someone could confirm this ) in compensation if he left for that contract .

 

[Jimmae]

Yeah, I know that. The point of my post was more about his mentality. Any player who has some talent and Cripps' attitude has a very good chance of becoming a quality player.

If he has a little whine when people bring up the beep test, he doesn't have Cripps mentality. If true, he does what he does out on the football field because he believes he is better than everyone else by default.

That's not someone you want to be using a top pick on (again, if true).

Can somebody please tell me who is going to chop out Kruezer in the ruck if we let Casboult leave?

And don't say Phillips.

Depending on the stoppage: Rowe, McKay, Cripps, Curnow, Weitering, Jones.

Despite what the little mexican girl says.....this is one case you can't (shouldn't) have both...

True story: she's Aussie.

 

[Abyss]

Disagree wholeheartedly, we have room and salary to accommodate a senior player who is highly respected by our young players for another year should we want to.

Rarely gets on the park? Assuming he plays the remaining two rounds he'll have notched up 18 games a year for two straight seasons.

I'd much rather see another year for Daisy than I would the same for Sumner or Buckley at this stage. Those two guys are younger, sure, but their off-field contributions (or lack thereof) don't offset their poor on-field returns. Daisy at least can be a reliable leader of the club, can play predominantly at VFL level, but if someone like Matty Wright went down injured I'd be confident that Daisy could come in, get his 15-20 touches and craft a goal or two for himself or his teammates. He's playing an extremely selfless brand of football for Carlton - most of his work is in running and providing options up-field for players to kick to. He's running himself into the ground to do so, and if he wasn't doing it we'd be looking even slower in transition than we are. His skills have let him down at times (as have those of Simpson, Murphy, Kerridge, Graham etc.), and he's certainly not gonna be roosting goals from 45m out anymore, but he's got the work ethic and the intangibles to be a valuable contributor for at least one more season.

The biggest issue with Daisy is that many people are unable to look at him objectively based on current and future output. It always comes down to how much he's been paid over the last few seasons, or how much better he was at Collingwood and how he'll never be that player again. Forget all that. Daisy for 2018 on $300-400k is perfectly acceptable given where we're at as a club.

Nice insight you have shown on what he does onfield. It doesnt show on a broadcast. As i said I agree with the role he is playing, I just think there are, or have been better options out there in FA. We have a lot of smaller blokes onfield now, I dont want to see them getting smashed up al la Judd,Cripps and Murph etc with no response. Again, compare someone like Lewis, more recent premmies, who commands respect from the team and other opposition, and who took out our best player in Cripps when we played them and will probably play finals. Thomas isnt a matchwinner, and isnt going to play a role in our future. If he is recontracted and Simmo isnt, as a blues supporter I would have an issue.They are both in decline performance wise, and as a loyal clubman, if Simmo were to be released I think that would affect anyone in the playing group looking at the future. And I dont think we can afford them both with our light bodies. I need to trust the process HQ have in place, but do you think Thomas would have a position on any other list? Im all for a strengthening of the NB'S, but if thats the best we can do I am not convinced. These next two games against the swans and hawks will be more of the same....4000 days plus losing streak against Hawthorn ?And our smallish team getting ragdolled all day again? I just hope theres no major injuries dished out to our future up and comers. I have never got over his 1' playing time season on $600g a while ago, and the times hes been on the bench with an early injury post that (calves or whatever). He gets kudos for a the contract restructure this year, he should have done it years ago. We are staring down the barrell at another spoon and that is also part of his legacy. But I take your points, I was stoked with his baulk and sausage roll this year come to think of it, I used much precious data watching that a few times. Give the supporters more of that DT!

 

[ferrisb]

True story: she's Aussie.

Mind blown....

Next you'll tell me Old El Paso aint authentic Mexican food

 

[Blue__Balls]

Nice insight you have shown on what he does onfield. It doesnt show on a broadcast. As i said I agree with the role he is playing, I just think there are, or have been better options out there in FA. We have a lot of smaller blokes onfield now, I dont want to see them getting smashed up al la Judd,Cripps and Murph etc with no response. Again, compare someone like Lewis, more recent premmies, who commands respect from the team and other opposition, and who took out our best player in Cripps when we played them and will probably play finals. Thomas isnt a matchwinner, and isnt going to play a role in our future. If he is recontracted and Simmo isnt, as a blues supporter I would have an issue.They are both in decline performance wise, and as a loyal clubman, if Simmo were to be released I think that would affect anyone in the playing group looking at the future. And I dont think we can afford them both with our light bodies. I need to trust the process HQ have in place, but do you think Thomas would have a position on any other list? Im all for a strengthening of the NB'S, but if thats the best we can do I am not convinced. These next two games against the swans and hawks will be more of the same....4000 days plus losing streak against Hawthorn ?And our smallish team getting ragdolled all day again? I just hope theres no major injuries dished out to our future up and comers. I have never got over his 1' playing time season on $600g a while ago, and the times hes been on the bench with an early injury post that (calves or whatever). He gets kudos for a the contract restructure this year, he should have done it years ago. We are staring down the barrell at another spoon and that is also part of his legacy. But I take your points, I was stoked with his baulk and sausage roll this year come to think of it, I used much precious data watching that a few times. Give the supporters more of that DT!

Out of curiosity - which free agents do you reckon we'd be able to bring in to play that senior mentor type role for 2018? And as an extension of that - what is it about those players that makes you think they'd be a substantial upgrade on Daisy?

As far as size goes, I agree that we're looking a bit small this season, or more accurately we've had a combination of too many talls and smalls and not enough "in-betweeners". That will hopefully change for next season though if we can start the year with Cripps and Curnow back into the 22, Ciaran Byrne back into the 22, plus another preseason into Charlie, Willo, SPS, Cunners, Jack, Pickett, Fisher etc. The trick is going to be supporting those young players with smart operators who can efficiently and effectively set us up structurally. Gibbs, Murph, Kreuz - they're too quiet and too focused on their own games to be effective at "leading" properly.

Thomas getting a spot on another list? Irrelevant. No other club is in the same position as we are, so debating whether any given Carlton player is good enough to play elsewhere is comparing apples with gorringes.

And finally - there it is again. $600k per season and out with injury...makes it hard to fairly assess the bloke when that history has to be mentioned every. Single. Time.

 

[Big Red is back]

Phillips.

Can't play two perm rucks

 

[HBF]

I think that it will depend on who gets delisted by other clubs. Most clubs will probably not cut hard this year, which might mean that NG and BB get another year.

I think so too.
Both have shown enough to get another year anyway.

 

[Big Red is back]

I understood Levi was offered 380k base with numerous performance clauses enabling him to earn upto 550k.

Seems fair

 

[Sector 7G]

Can't play two perm rucks

Would it really be that much worse than CAZ? Phillips is a good contested mark and a good kick at goal. Harry might not like it because in the 2s Phillips was always getting in front of his run and taking marks inside 50 that had Harrys name on it. Might cost 5-10 or so goals a season and a couple of marks around the ground a game but be better relieving in the ruck. Neither would provide forward pressure or are able to manufacture goals out of nothing like a Kennedy.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

You could also spin it as saying that now is the time to trade for a Kelly (ideally a Kelly/Hopper package). If Gibbs stays, we've got 3-4 years of him and Murphy in their prime, in which case there is a need to accelerate improvement.

 

[I AM CARLTON]

If we get pick 1 offer that and 2nd round pick next year or Levi comp pick for Kelly and Hopper.

Midfield next year is Cripps, Gibbs, Kelly, Murphy, Hopper, SPS, Cuningham, Fisher & Curnow.

Very tasty midfield!!!!

 

[Wickzki]

Read that Kreuzer is still uncontracted on the weekend. What has happened to that trigger clause/renegotiation?

Worst case scenario is that they use the trigger. Best case scenario, for both parties, longer term contract at better money for Kreuze. It's not a big deal and will be hammered out.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

First time I can remember that we've fast tracked our draft picks from the previous year, and these guys are all 10 year mids.

Guys like Palmer, Graham, Smedts were only ever going to be depth, and they have been surpassed.

Would trade draft picks in this year's shallow draft and if we can get a Higgins around 15, and snare Kelly, will be doing cartwheels.

 

[Wickzki]

Out of curiosity - which free agents do you reckon we'd be able to bring in to play that senior mentor type role for 2018? And as an extension of that - what is it about those players that makes you think they'd be a substantial upgrade on Daisy?

Club looking at McVeigh.

Another name that I've heard recently whose looking to get into coaching after his career, potentially, is Mark LeCras. He hasn't been linked to us in any way, shape or form but might be attainable in that type of role (if he was willing to do a reverse Sam Mitchell).

 

[Pafloyul]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

I vote 'problem'. I'm not completely confident about where we are at and believe we could benefit from the currency.

 

[LordLucifer]

Carlton offer Levi 1.2 million over 3 years and Levi knocked it back. Carlton (rightfully) won't offer any more.

http://aflnation.com.au/2017/08/13/1758/

Who does he think he is, the new Jesaulenko ??

I hope we withdraw that offer and he goes off into the night for good.

 

[Sector 7G]

Who does he think he is, the new Jesaulenko ??

I hope we withdraw that offer and he goes off into the night for good.

I think he is just hoping to be the next Ty Vickery (without the shady underworld connections). If he can find some nuff nuff to pay him ridiculous numbers good luck to him and we will be over rewarded. Win Win

 

[I AM CARLTON]

Club looking at McVeigh.

Another name that I've heard recently whose looking to get into coaching after his career, potentially, is Mark LeCras. He hasn't been linked to us in any way, shape or form but might be attainable in that type of role (if he was willing to do a reverse Sam Mitchell).

LeCras no thanks he is on the slide big time. We already have Matt Wright as a better option than him!!!

 

[JustaBattler]

Andy Maher is pretty confident that Gibbs in now staying.
If that is so, that's fine. Gibbs has a contract and if things have changed, we can't push him out of the door.

It does though stifle our chances of trading hard.
After Gibbs, we really don't have much else that we'd want to trade with.

Does that present a bit of a problem or is it a good thing?

1. For the first time ever I am relaxed about Gibbs at Carlton based on what he has contributed week in week out - he has been putting his head over the ball when required and doing hard yards sans Cripps and Ed and doing them very well. Gibbs is worth much more than a high teens pick to Carlton. If he is happy to stay we win big time especially since ( even using my mongrel meter) ;

2. A Kelly added to Gibbs and Cripps playing off Kreuzer is a finals core.

3. You then have the luxury of playing Murphy | Cuningham | Pickett | Fisher as your genuine class outside run and distributors.

4. Inside rotations are handled by Ed Curnow |Kerridge and maybe a developing Polson coming on or a Williamson restructured to a midfield role.

If SOS can jag 2 quality mids and keep Gibbs - the midfield is pretty much set and normal drafting can keep it ticking over.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

If we get pick 1 offer that and 2nd round pick next year or Levi comp pick for Kelly and Hopper.

Midfield next year is Cripps, Gibbs, Kelly, Murphy, Hopper, SPS, Cuningham, Fisher & Curnow.

Very tasty midfield!!!!

And a tasty one for the next 5-6 years

 

[Soapy V]

If we get pick 1 offer that and 2nd round pick next year or Levi comp pick for Kelly and Hopper.

Midfield next year is Cripps, Gibbs, Kelly, Murphy, Hopper, SPS, Cuningham, Fisher & Curnow.

Very tasty midfield!!!!

Is Curnow the Charlie one? I believe he will be the best of the lot. Still believe Polson has the tools

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out Cas.

Personally think that's a pretty good offer for Levi. I wouldn't be offering anymore, but its a decent offer for his output. If he believes there is a better offer out there for him well good luck to him, wish you well wherever you land.