Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Pt 2

[FairKouta]

Yet i bet if the roles were reversed you would be saying the same thing about Stephenson. How is the first year not a good indicator? The kid was a few draft watchers number 1 player for a lot of the season and if it wasn't for his heart issue then possibly would have gone higher.


Give the kid some credit.

Because 1st years are not good indicators mcgrath from the dons won the rising star i am not sure he has improved this year. And i did say he is an amazing talent in my follow up posts, however I just think dow has more upside. What role reversal are you taking about ?

 

[bluegrass]

We were never going to get an A grade midfielder this year. We still need to hit the draft and get midfielders like you stated. Melbourne bowed to the pressure of trading their first round pick for DomTyson for pick two. That pick was Josh Kelly.. Imagine Melbourne now with Josh Kelly?? Need to try and target second tier players to improve our depth. Melbourne did this by getting Melksham and Hibberd. Once their nucleus was established they then targeted their most pressing needs Jake Lever. Getting a Shiel now would improve us in the short term however we'd have to give up a potential long term A grader. No short term fix. We're half way through this rebuild let's stay the course.

"Stay the course".

Three simple words. Should be the new club mantra.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Salary cap pressure or not, there is zero reason or incentive for GWS to do what people are suggesting should be the deal. None. It makes zero sense from a GWS perspective.

Not just salary cap pressure.
As I said in that post, GWS have a lot of players (around 6+) who become free agents at the end of 2019, and also Kelly comes out of contract then too.

If GWS loses Shiel in 2019 and also loses say another 2 players to free agency as well, GWS still gets the 1 pick only, and it most likely follows its first rounder. So if GWS finishes 4th next year, the compensation pick (16) would come after its first pick (15).

If GWS trades Shiel this year, GWS gets a better pick this year (our first pick in a swap) and would still get that compensation pick next year anyway for the other 2 free agents who leave.

Without Shiel’s salary, GWS also has a better chance of keeping one or more of Coniglio, Kelly, Cameron, Lobb, etc.

GWS can’t keep them all. IMO, it is good business for both clubs.

 

[DangerousD]

All of the talk of Stephenson is relatively pointless.
Looking like a top prospect, but not at all what we needed (or continue to need) going forward. In time, Charlie will play this role (3rd tall) and play it better.

Good list management is a sum of all parts.
We had already drafted and traded in medium and tall prospects and need to trust the process. Next step was (and is) midfielders. Even if Stephenson ends up having a phenomenal career, he just didn’t fit our needs.

Biggest load of garbage i have read in a long time.

Stephenson is a wingman/forward who might develop in to a forward/mid and you say we don't need this type of player? The kid has already kicked 24 goals this year, if you hadn't noticed, we are desperate for players who can kick goals.

Charlie is a hard running, high jumping CHF, they are totally different footballers.

Our club is crying out for dynamic, quick, athletic forwards who can play multiple roles and Stephenson fits the bill perfectly.

Im not unhappy with our pick, i love Paddy but your comments are so far off its not funny.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Not just salary cap pressure.
As I said in that post, GWS have a lot of players (around 6+) who become free agents at the end of 2019, and also Kelly comes out of contract then too.

If GWS loses Shiel in 2019 and also loses say another 2 players to free agency as well, GWS still gets the 1 pick only, and it most likely follows its first rounder. So if GWS finishes 4th next year, the compensation pick (16) would come after its first pick (15).

If GWS trades Shiel this year, GWS gets a better pick this year (our first pick in a swap) and would still get that compensation pick next year anyway for the other 2 free agents who leave.

Without Shiel’s salary, GWS also has a better chance of keeping one or more of Coniglio, Kelly, Cameron, Lobb, etc.

GWS can’t keep them all. IMO, it is good business for both clubs.

He still won’t get it

 

[THE_GUN]

Not sure there was a lot of confidence and moral around your club at the start of last season.

Best way to answer this is with Hardwicks comments prior to the season where he mentions that we have the best list hes had since his time and it was a top 4 team - Everybody laughed but hardwick was serious

 

[bluegrass]

I wouldn't swap Dow for anyone. Seriously the kid tackles like a machine, has Judd like burst speed and is tough as nails. I'm absolutely wrapt we got him.

Couldn't see that well yesterday with sun in my eyes the whole match, but caught a few glimpses of Dow shaped silhouettes doing gorgeous things to the ball.

 

[DangerousD]

Because 1st years are not good indicators mcgrath from the dons won the rising star i am not sure he has improved this year. And i did say he is an amazing talent in my follow up posts, however I just think dow has more upside. What role reversal are you taking about ?

I did read your follow up posts

I meant if Stephenson played for us you would be singing his praises and saying don't get excited by Dow. Im a big fan of Dow but also a big fan of Stephenson, wish we could of got both.

 

[FairKouta]

Biggest load of garbage i have read in a long time.

Stephenson is a wingman/forward who might develop in to a forward/mid and you say we don't need this type of player? The kid has already kicked 24 goals this year, if you hadn't noticed, we are desperate for players who can kick goals.

Charlie is a hard running, high jumping CHF, they are totally different footballers.

Our club is crying out for dynamic, quick, athletic forwards who can play multiple roles and Stephenson fits the bill perfectly.

Im not unhappy with our pick, i love Paddy but your comments are so far off its not funny.

Your posts make it seen like you are pretty unhappy about us getting paddy.
Jayden could be an outside mid/FWD maybe.
Paddy could be a dangerfield. Paddy has acceleration does not fall to ground tackles hard a side step all the tools. I think we need to give him time. Jayden is playing in a decent team Atm.

 

[FairKouta]

I did read your follow up posts

I meant if Stephenson played for us you would be singing his praises and saying don't get excited by Dow. Im a big fan of Dow but also a big fan of Stephenson, wish we could of got both.

I rate rayner higher than dow wish we got him but not jayden. I wish we had them all but the fact is we don't.
Reckon we will be ok. Give it time

 

[DangerousD]

Your posts make it seen like you are pretty unhappy about us getting paddy.
Jayden could be an outside mid/FWD maybe.
Paddy could be a dangerfield. Paddy has acceleration does not fall to ground tackles hard a side step all the tools. I think we need to give him time. Jayden is playing in a decent team Atm.

Let me be very clear, i am a big fan of Dow, he has done a fantastic job in a team that is struggling, he will only get better.

The issue i had in the post that i quoted, was the poster saying that 'we don't need players like Stephenson and Charlie will play his role and better'

To me, that is so far from reality that i felt compelled to comment. It had nothing to do with me not liking Dow.

 

[DangerousD]

I rate rayner higher than dow wish we got him but not jayden. I wish we had them all but the fact is we don't.
Reckon we will be ok. Give it time

Haven't seen much of Raynor but going off what ive seen of Stephenson and what ive seen (limited) and read on Raynor i would pick Steph ahead of him, but you're right, we can't have them all.

On the above though, the top 6 from last year barring LDU all look fantastic in what was a supposed weaker draft, this draft as been billed as elite at the top, its for this reason i would like to try trade pick 1 to get two top 10 picks.

Two good players (maybe great) imo will be better than one Lukosious

 

[FairKouta]

Haven't seen much of Raynor but going off what ive seen of Stephenson and what ive seen (limited) and read on Raynor i would pick Steph ahead of him, but you're right, we can't have them all.

On the above though, the top 6 from last year barring LDU all look fantastic in what was a supposed weaker draft, this draft as been billed as elite at the top, its for this reason i would like to try trade pick 1 to get two top 10 picks.

Two good players (maybe great) imo will be better than one Lukosious

I would trade pick 1 for shiel and setterfield.

 

[blue healer]

Best way to answer this is with Hardwicks comments prior to the season where he mentions that we have the best list hes had since his time and it was a top 4 team - Everybody laughed but hardwick was serious

Yeah he definitely had the last and loudest laugh but there was no shortage of doubters.

 

[THE_GUN]

Unlike some others I think this post is mostly garbage.

Carlton did not "trade out players to get draft picks and as a result bottomed out"

That is absolute crap.

Carlton bottomed out because they f***ed up about 8 consecutive drafts.

Of all the players who left only about 7 are still playing AFL.

Some left to join winning teams (Henderson, Gibbs)

Dylan Buckley- delisted played 1 game at GWS

Robinson and Garlett were shown the door for being pissed and involved in a fist fight at 5am on a Sunday morning in King St during the season and (Robinson) while injured - great for senior players to be setting the culture of the club while we're drafting all these young guys.

Tuohy, Betts and Waite wanted more $ than we were prepared to pay so left for the money - and no compensation was received for the last 2.

So tell me again - which players were traded out to get draft picks and deliberately bottom out????????

Feel free to come here and post - but stick to the facts and don't talk crap.



PS - and I really don't give a shit what Richmond did - its irrelevant to our situation.

Doesnt matter what the reasons were on why players were traded out the fact remains that they were

Henderson
Tuohy
Bell
Gibbs

Regards to players leaving to wanting more dollars and Carlton letting them go , It could also be looked at in a different way
You dont pay existing players that are proven and want money to stay and let them leave yet are prepared to bring in others like Palmer , Lobbe as salary cap dumps.

Fact remains that the chance that the blues would have received a PP would be extremely low , When you say that you dont care what Richmond did thats where you are wrong again as you have brought in 'The Man' From Richmond to effectively do what Richmond did.

Anyway the last thing im here to do is argue with you but im thinking the people running your club would be in a better position to make this choice than you and they have made it.

 

[Wickzki]

Best way to answer this is with Hardwicks comments prior to the season where he mentions that we have the best list hes had since his time and it was a top 4 team - Everybody laughed but hardwick was serious

All of the pressure on Richmond at the start of last year was extrinsic. The intrinsic was fine. It wasn't just Hardwick who believed in your squad. Of course, having the coach's belief is important for the playing group.

 

[The Bighouse]

We’re going to struggle with offering up suitable jumper numbers for any big trades unfortunately.
#44 may be available for Jake Lloyd if he wants to continue in the same number but probably couldn’t fit Shiel or Gaff into anything but #11, 13, 18, 24, 32.
We may not have completely thought this rebuild through.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Doesnt matter what the reasons were on why players were traded out the fact remains that they were

Henderson
Tuohy
Bell
Gibbs

Regards to players leaving to wanting more dollars and Carlton letting them go , It could also be looked at in a different way
You dont pay existing players that are proven and want money to stay and let them leave yet are prepared to bring in others like Palmer , Lobbe as salary cap dumps.

Fact remains that the chance that the blues would have received a PP would be extremely low , When you say that you dont care what Richmond did thats where you are wrong again as you have brought in 'The Man' From Richmond to effectively do what Richmond did.

Anyway the last thing im here to do is argue with you but im thinking the people running your club would be in a better position to make this choice than you and they have made it.

Yeah I reckon we'd be challenging top 4 if we still had those 4 blokes.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

It’s been explained about 5 different ways in a number of posts, if u don’t get it, then just get over it.
U don’t have to agree with it, but if u can’t even see the other option you obviously don’t understand how trading/fa works, reading up on it else where might help

I wont just get over it thanks very much. The explanations given don't make sense from a GWS perspective as I have said previously. Using our only midfield player of any similar equivalence, Patrick Cripps, if GWS approached us and say we will give you pick 1 for Patrick Cripps and our first round pick back, every single person on this forum would be blowing up deluxe, including yourself. Don't tell me Im wrong either, cos you know it would be true. Yet everyone proposing this trade thinks GWS should just bend over for it?

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Not just salary cap pressure.
As I said in that post, GWS have a lot of players (around 6+) who become free agents at the end of 2019, and also Kelly comes out of contract then too.

If GWS loses Shiel in 2019 and also loses say another 2 players to free agency as well, GWS still gets the 1 pick only, and it most likely follows its first rounder. So if GWS finishes 4th next year, the compensation pick (16) would come after its first pick (15).

If GWS trades Shiel this year, GWS gets a better pick this year (our first pick in a swap) and would still get that compensation pick next year anyway for the other 2 free agents who leave.

Without Shiel’s salary, GWS also has a better chance of keeping one or more of Coniglio, Kelly, Cameron, Lobb, etc.

GWS can’t keep them all. IMO, it is good business for both clubs.

None of the other players have any consequence or are connected in any way to whatever deal we may or may not do for Dylan Shiel.

 

[Pafloyul]

At another club not named Carlton.

Yeah, because we wouldn't want any more talented youngsters on our list. Let's bring in Sheil so we can feel a bit better at the end of the week after we've looked a little bit less crap when we lose.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Yeah, because we wouldn't want any more talented youngsters on our list. Let's get in Sheil so we can feel a bit better at the end of the week after we've looked a little bit less crap when we fail.

Im not one of the posters who are desperate to get Dylan Shiel mate.

 

[Metalcrusher]

He still has one year left on his contract (Shiel) atm and will be a RFA at the end of 2019 (BTW so is Tomlinson and Coniglio). Gibbs was 3 years older and netted 2 x 1st rounders + a few pick exchanges.

I agree with BrissyCFC ….. Pick one aside which does carry weight …. will not cut it, for BOTH parties.

Just cannot see SOS handing over potentially Pick 1 for Shiel, and likewise cannot see GWS accepting it. Doesn't make sense for either club. Another trade scenario will have to be brokered involving players (maybe from both sides) plus picks.

Just can't see it is all.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Doesnt matter what the reasons were on why players were traded out the fact remains that they were

Henderson
Tuohy
Bell
Gibbs

Regards to players leaving to wanting more dollars and Carlton letting them go , It could also be looked at in a different way
You dont pay existing players that are proven and want money to stay and let them leave yet are prepared to bring in others like Palmer , Lobbe as salary cap dumps.

Fact remains that the chance that the blues would have received a PP would be extremely low , When you say that you dont care what Richmond did thats where you are wrong again as you have brought in 'The Man' From Richmond to effectively do what Richmond did.

Anyway the last thing im here to do is argue with you but im thinking the people running your club would be in a better position to make this choice than you and they have made it.

in the words of carmello anthony: "go duck a sick champ"

 

[Soapy V]

As I said yesterday, I would happily have Phillips stay in the ruck and move Kruezer on. It upset a few posters. But Kruezer is no key piece that moves the goalposts for us at all. Phillips, who can provide more first choice tap opportunities, and an improved midfield, can move the goalposts as far as performances go.

IMO Kruezer at his best is as good as anyone. Key is being 100% fit. Need to manage him to be that and a fit Phillips will help