List Mgmt. 2018 St Kilda Trade Thread Part 1

[st_trav_ofWA]

see thats where we differ i think. i dont think the guys would have put that effort in under clarko at hawthorn. if they did it would be extremely rare and i think this list would be playing finals, two seasons ago in 2016.

i dont think its the list. the list is good. i think the players are a product of their environment and coaching.

i agree the list is good but where is the leadership ? that may fall in part on Richo for the team he selects but it also falls on the recruitment and the players we have available ... our best leaders didnt make the best 22 now thats not saying you just give Weller and Dunstan games but the cupboard is bare for leaders , hopefully this is the kick in the arse for the guys to make the step up and become the leaders they were looking for on Friday

 

[VDS66]

i agree the list is good but where is the leadership ? that may fall in part on Richo for the team he selects but it also falls on the recruitment and the players we have available ... our best leaders didnt make the best 22 now thats not saying you just give Weller and Dunstan games but the cupboard is bare for leaders , hopefully this is the kick in the arse for the guys to make the step up and become the leaders they were looking for on Friday

This has been evident for over a year now.

Rather than bring in some wise heads, they have kept faith in the young players to step up into that role.

Roo was the only one to really grab the game by the scruff last year.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

The key to success for any organisation stems from the management.

The right board makes good decisions in terms of personel.

This has a flow on effect down the line.

The current lit have done so much right during its tenure. And made mistakes but the good outweighs the bad in terms of professionalism and stability.

So we are getting there. It's been a massive cultural and operational shift in dynamics.

We have a history of great players and handy coaches, yet we haven't won a flag mainly due to moronic decisions from the top.

Hopefully those days are now behind us.

this is it in a nutshell ... a huge cultural change doesnt happen over night .. yes mistakes have been made lots of them have but a lot has gone right we are going to have ups and downs but its important to stick with the change reverting to old ways , looking for quick fixes is going to get us back on that "same ol StKilda" merry go round...

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

And everyone we get wrong, it sets us back.

Same with most teams.

Collingwood are a different kettle of fish than us obviously but going through similar drafting hiccups which are holding them back as well.
Although they have drafted some very good kids the last few seasons its just not clicking for them.
Jesse White, Quinten Lynch, Daniel Wells , Chris Mayne etc havnt worked as quick fix's and some of their kids are injury prone or dick heads.
Jury still out on their coach as well.
Improve the gameplans/coaching out and draft another couple of guns and i think both Stk and Coll could turn things around really quickly.
Hopefully us before them.

 

[gringo2011]

This is fair.

It sounds typical St.Kilda dreaming about a saviour coach.
Cant remember Clarko being the saviour after we beat them by 75 points last year.

But I do see and understand the angst. We have been asked since 2012 to be patient.
Well we had high hopes this year but so far they have been gravely disappointing.

We have been patient and now want to see improvement.

I always wondered how we could rebuild during compromised drafts. Well it looks like it was pretty hard.

Am as disappointed as the rest here but there are 21 more rounds.

Imagine how Hawks and Sydney fan felt after 6 rounds ladt season.

We arent either of those two teams but we arent the team we saw on Friday.

At our best we are a 6-8 team. But thats it. Without aome top end talent we will not get much higher than that.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

I know Hawks and Swans fans and they had the last decade of awesome performances to hang their hat on. It’s hard to feel disappointment when success comes easy. Excuses are running thin now, I didn’t have huge expectations even, just don’t lose ground, develop kids push toward finals for next year etc.?Instead on our biggest game as far as exposure and at a point that could have signed on a heap of extra members we shat the bed. We stopped playing decent footy sometime last year and seem to have accepted our place as a mid table mediocre club only we are too lazy to even hold on to the mid table thing. We had a game based around hard work and grinding down others and with out that we are just exposed as frauds. If they don’t have a massive effort in the Crows game and st least give us pride in their performance I’m cancelling our memberships. I’m sick of it.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

This has been constructivevident for over a year now.

Rather than bring in some wise heads, they have kept faith in the young players to step up into that role.

Roo was the only one to really grab the game by the scruff last year.

bang on .. we though Roo on one leg was replacable but its the other stuff Roo brings that have left us with a void ... at the moment we have a foot soldier when we need a general ...
BJ sure would be handy now

 

[Yawkey way]

And everyone we get wrong, it sets us back.

Same with most teams.

Yes it does but in our case we more or less decided to bottom out.

Letting Goddard and del Santo walk ensured a hard landing and this year was always going to be tough without roo and joey.

If I had any say at the club I would be having a good look at the recruiting team along with player development.

My point is that it's easier to maintain your position in my opinion than it is to climb up the ladder and it's not always obvious who is to blame. I really couldn't say with any certainty who is to blame for our current state, recruitment, development, coach, player attitude or a combination of all of those.

The melts have been pretty funny and totally predictable given how insipid we were, the question still remains though. If we are ever going to challenge for a flag again what is it we need to fix?.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

bang on .. we though Roo on one leg was replacable but its the other stuff Roo brings that have left us with a void ... at the moment we have a foot soldier when we need a general ...
BJ sure would be handy now

In hindsight Luke Hodge playing for a year or 2 leading into a coaching role looks like a pretty good move for Brissy.
Would love that General on our half back flank right now till fill the void .

 

[VDS66]

Yes it does but in our case we more or less decided to bottom out.

Letting Goddard and del Santo walk ensured a hard landing and this year was always going to be tough without roo and joey.

If I had any say at the club I would be having a good look at the recruiting team along with player development.

My point is that it's easier to maintain your position in my opinion than it is to climb up the ladder and it's not always obvious who is to blame. I really couldn't say with any certainty who is to blame for our current state, recruitment, development, coach, player attitude or a combination of all of those.

The melts have been pretty funny and totally predictable given how insipid we were, the question still remains though. If we are ever going to challenge for a flag again what is it we need to fix?.

We are almost at the same point as where Melbourne were when they created out all their senior players. **** I hope we don't end up the same.

 

[Yawkey way]

We are almost at the same point as where Melbourne were when they created out all their senior players. **** I hope we don't end up the same.

Cleveland Browns have had I think it's 12 first round picks since 2012 and have won 1 game in the last two years.

We desperately need to keep winning 9 or 10 games at least, once you fall down that rabbit hole like Melbourne did it's a long way back.

I mean could we say with any certainty that if Clarko was coaching us we would make finals?. I couldn't so it just adds to the perception outside of the club and the internal feeling that we are a basket case if you go for the coach sacking.

IMHO we have to stay the course and grind our way back, if we can pull off a recruiting coup so much the better but there is no magic bullet for us.

Having said that you just can't serve up that rubbish from last Friday and expect to get away with it, the players must show some desperation and put their bodies on the line for the club. I will never be happy with loosing but I can live with a team that gives 100%.

 

[#gosaintas]

In hindsight Luke Hodge playing for a year or 2 leading into a coaching role looks like a pretty good move for Brissy.
Would love that General on our half back flank right now till fill the void .

We have Geary for that

 

[George]

We have Geary for that

Geary doesn't play half back flank.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

We have Geary for that

Geary doesn't play half back flank.

And with all respect to Gears if i had the choice of Geary for the rest of his career OR Hodge for 1 or 2 seasons onfield guiding our kids then staying on as a coach id pick Hodgey every day of the week.

 

[StCicatriz]

i agree the list is good but where is the leadership ? that may fall in part on Richo for the team he selects but it also falls on the recruitment and the players we have available ... our best leaders didnt make the best 22 now thats not saying you just give Weller and Dunstan games but the cupboard is bare for leaders , hopefully this is the kick in the arse for the guys to make the step up and become the leaders they were looking for on Friday

the cupboard certainly isnt bare based on what we selected at the draft. a number of players were drafted/traded with leadership in mind:
newnes
ross
dunstan
longer
billings
mccartin
goddard
weller
brown
stevens
they were basically high leadership potential type selections

couple that with what we spoke about earlier with the existing leaders and its more than enough

i think the problem is you are seeing the outcome as being poor so therefore they must be poor. where as i'm looking at what they were identified as prior to joining the club and how that has been developed.

like i said the likes of roughead, rioli, burgoyne etc. were not leaders over night. if anything they were not seen as leadership material prior to stepping foot inside hawthorn i.e. the opposite of the list i gave above. yet they've developed into leaders along with a bunch of others

the other issue outside the leadership is their performance. here's why i dont think its recruitment. the majority of our selections were rated by other clubs, outside of the smokies. we know this. other clubs would have picked them if we didnt. so they had the talent at the time of stepping foot into the club. they've then shown what they can do, albeit inconsistent. so they've clearly got what it takes. they just havent progressed at the rate we would have liked and struggle to be consistent. 1st qtr lapses show this. they just aren't focussed/turning up. round 1 last year against melb another example. you can draw a pretty good picture about how they have the talent but its not being utilised.

this all happened at melbourne. melbourne didnt identify that their recruitment was broken. change the recruiter and bang you're ok. the recruitment for them was an after thought when they started to fix it. it was their player development. roo's had to come in and rebuild pretty much the entire football dept. specifically how they develop their players. btw that recruiter is still there from the pies ;-)

its like "is jack watts shit because we made the wrong selection, or is jack watts shit because of how we have developed him"

jack watts had the talent. you can argue his pick placement, but he was a very good prospect. the difference is they absolutely butchered his development. which took years to undo. in some cases it gets to a point where they just have to change clubs.

you could put buddy into the melbourne system under bailey and neeld and he wouldnt have survived.

 

[George]

And with all respect to Gears if i had the choice of Geary for the rest of his career OR Hodge for 1 or 2 seasons onfield guiding our kids then staying on as a coach id pick Hodgey every day of the week.

I'm just sick of the Geary bashing. It's been happening for years from people who don't have a clue what Geary's role is (not you).

Obviously everyone would pick Hodge, so would I. Arguably the greatest captain of all-time, multiple premiership player, Norm Smith medalist compared to a guy that's come off of the Rookie List and in his 2nd year as captain, taking over the job from someone who is regarded as our greatest ever player.

Gee we don't even give them a chance anymore.

 

[StCicatriz]

In hindsight Luke Hodge playing for a year or 2 leading into a coaching role looks like a pretty good move for Brissy.
Would love that General on our half back flank right now till fill the void .

thats the one! brilliant call.

he is exactly the type we need, although i do feel you need to get the football dept sorted for him to really get some gains into the players.

 

[StCicatriz]

exactly our history is filled with coaches thrown on the scrap heap ... why would any "in Demand" coach even consider coming to us ? you could say thats all history but its still fresh the whole fall out on Lyon leaving.. then Watters sacking (even though justified), the Choco Williams offer then retraction or offer and then a sacking of Richo ... you would have to be mad to think St Kilda is a good prospect to coach at ...
for all his faults we simply must keep Richo , we cant afford another sacking, another re-start, another "st Kilda being St Kilda"... what we can do though is surround him with the best assistants

the issue isnt the sacking of people. all clubs sack coaches.

its in how we are run. every single administration is a basket case. some are better than others, but they're still bad.

which means you dont get the resources you need. continually impacted by bad decisions. plus the weight of bad decisions built up over time

 

[STK2020]

In hindsight Luke Hodge playing for a year or 2 leading into a coaching role looks like a pretty good move for Brissy.
Would love that General on our half back flank right now till fill the void .

That bloke Goddard we HAD was pretty handy .

 

[#gosaintas]

I'm just sick of the Geary bashing. It's been happening for years from people who don't have a clue what Geary's role is (not you).

Obviously everyone would pick Hodge, so would I. Arguably the greatest captain of all-time, multiple premiership player, Norm Smith medalist compared to a guy that's come off of the Rookie List and in his 2nd year as captain, taking over the job from someone who is regarded as our greatest ever player.

Gee we don't even give them a chance anymore.

Geary's had every chance. He's still getting a game. Last year as Capt for him I hope.

 

[George]

Geary's had every chance. He's still getting a game. Last year as Capt for him I hope.

What is Geary doing wrong?

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

I'm just sick of the Geary bashing. It's been happening for years from people who don't have a clue what Geary's role is (not you).

Obviously everyone would pick Hodge, so would I. Arguably the greatest captain of all-time, multiple premiership player, Norm Smith medalist compared to a guy that's come off of the Rookie List and in his 2nd year as captain, taking over the job from someone who is regarded as our greatest ever player.

Gee we don't even give them a chance anymore.

This is just my opinion and im far from being a club insider so im just going from what i see.
I rate Geary as a Extremely Good foot soldier. Skills so/so but hard as a cats head and would put his body on the line every week without a doubt.
Ive heard he is pretty vocal out on the field and is very well respected by the players and coaching staff.
Was a bloody tuff gig to follow in Roo's footsteps and for all i know he was the best man for the job. Wouldnt have been my personal choice but im smart enough to realize the club knows a shitload more about our team list than i do. So ill back him and the club in 100%.
Now do i think he would be a walk up start at every other AFL club. IMO id say no.
Not a knock on him at all. Just a snapshot of where our list is at the moment.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

If I had any say at the club I would be having a good look at the recruiting team along with player development.

My point is that it's easier to maintain your position in my opinion than it is to climb up the ladder and it's not always obvious who is to blame. I really couldn't say with any certainty who is to blame for our current state, recruitment, development, coach, player attitude or a combination of all of those.
.

Some good points you bring up.

A few of us here we put the issue down as coaches with 2 offshoots of that being poor tactics and in turn poor player development as they are playing in a system where hard work, tackling and pressure is valued over all else.

Why I feel we are in a precarious situation if we don't act at the end of the season is because, if we don't, we will waste years of development on our recruits from the past few years (hello Melbourne). Sadly it might already be too late. But make a move soon and we might still be able to salvage a few players from the wreckage and these players will be the launching pad for our next assault.

The most depressing/alarming scenario is the one many espouse "it's not the coaches, we don't have the cattle." That essentially means our drafting, development or both have failed because we picked a bunch of duds. Then we are in a lot of trouble and will take years and years to recover.

We can't just stay in a holding pattern because of our history and the need to follow the "stability" mantra for the sake of it. This will lead us to doom also.

Tough decisions coming up over the next few months. Will be interesting to see how we act and if any at our club come out of the pack and take some real leadership.

 

[plugger66]

Yes it does but in our case we more or less decided to bottom out.

Letting Goddard and del Santo walk ensured a hard landing and this year was always going to be tough without roo and joey.

If I had any say at the club I would be having a good look at the recruiting team along with player development.

My point is that it's easier to maintain your position in my opinion than it is to climb up the ladder and it's not always obvious who is to blame. I really couldn't say with any certainty who is to blame for our current state, recruitment, development, coach, player attitude or a combination of all of those.

The melts have been pretty funny and totally predictable given how insipid we were, the question still remains though. If we are ever going to challenge for a flag again what is it we need to fix?.

There was nothing wrong with letting Dal and BJ go at the time but the club stuffed up letting both Joey and Roo retire together. I cant believe they were that dumb. We have made errors for many years and this lot haven't changed.

 

[plugger66]

What is Geary doing wrong?

Nothing. The guy has no credibility when talking about Geary. The funny thing is he is clearly the best option but he doesn't even want him in the side.

 

[VDS66]

The only reason you sack a coach is if you have a guaranteed superior replacement, or if he stinks and has lost the players.

sheer madness otherwise.