List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Arr0w]

Arrow, things are somewhat different now compared to where we were only a couple of years back.
We have a large spread of young 'premium-paid' talent on the list. I'm not going to list every individual again, as you know who they are.

First of all, I don't know what will happen, none of us do, but have an idea of what may happen -

The next two years, we'll be targeting ready-made best 22 players. How many will we get, may determine how we view the rest of our list.
To be layering on more young 'to be developed' players just doesn't make sense, so let's discard that notion for the sake of this exercise.

e.g. Let's say we get Papley and a FA this year. They'll be best 22 players and we won't be paying a premium for depth.
Next year we'll also be targeting one or two players that immediately make us better. Say three to four players, whilst not utilizing our first rounders.
Something will have to give, as we won't be able to retain every young player we have on the list, having them playing seconds football.
I just can't see it any other way even factoring in, the demise of players Simpson, Betts, Kreuzer and Murphy, as we're largely speaking about the riches of young mids we have.

I can understand players picked up late, or through the RD just taking anything they're given and being happy to just be on the list, but this is rarely the case for first rounders. History will show you that and ones that have been discarded early in the piece are for reasons, often outside their football ability, alone.

In summary, I feel that you see that all our young players can be managed through and find homes in our best team and I just don't. That's all.

I agree we do see it differently. I can't see us targeting 3-4 players over the next 2 years that would be definitely best 22. Let's say we somehow attract the likes of Papley and Williams this year, add them to what our list looks like in the 28 year and under list. Other acquisitions, would be lesser, foot solider types that are purely cover, just like Newnes, Gibbons, who until our younger players push out of the side

Beyond this year, 28 years old and younger

Plowman Weitering Marchbank
Docherty Macreadie/BSOS Williamson
Walsh Cripps Setterfield
Martin Charlie Cuningham
Fisher McKay McGovern

TDK Kemp Stocker

LOB SPS Silvagni Dow

EMG : Newman Cottrell Kennedy Newnes Gibbons Lang Ramsay Philp Honey Pittonet

Gone Levi, Murphy, Ed, Simmo, Jones, Krooz, Betts

There will be injuries, form slumps and if the likes of Newnes, Gibbons, Pittonet types are then considered break glass options, we are in a good position. There will always be players moving, money, opportunities, family, but there is no reason to force a trade given what this group looks like in the future

Any high end draftee that doesn't progress, may look for a fresh start, but that is not just a Carlton occurrence, it is league wide

No reason we should ever again, emulate a Kennedy situation, as not only is it poor list management, it is a poor cultural decision, most times, they go hand in hand. This "having to give up something of quality", never ends well long term

 

[HARKER]

I agree we do see it differently. I can't see us targeting 3-4 players over the next 2 years that would be definitely best 22. Let's say we somehow attract the likes of Papley and Williams this year, add them to what our list looks like in the 28 year and under list. Other acquisitions, would be lesser, foot solider types that are purely cover, just like Newnes, Gibbons, who until our younger players push out of the side

Beyond this year, 28 years old and younger

Plowman Weitering Marchbank
Docherty Macreadie/BSOS Williamson
Walsh Cripps Setterfield
Martin Charlie Cuningham
Fisher McKay McGovern

TDK Kemp Stocker

LOB SPS Silvagni Dow

EMG : Newman Cottrell Kennedy Newnes Gibbons Lang Ramsay Philp Honey Pittonet

Gone Levi, Murphy, Ed, Simmo, Jones, Krooz, Betts

There will be injuries, form slumps and if the likes of Newnes, Gibbons, Pittonet types are then considered break glass options, we are in a good position. There will always be players moving, money, opportunities, family, but there is no reason to force a trade given what this group looks like in the future

Any high end draftee that doesn't progress, may look for a fresh start, but that is not just a Carlton occurrence, it is league wide

No reason we should ever again, emulate a Kennedy situation, as not only is it poor list management, it is a poor cultural decision, most times, they go hand in hand. This "having to give up something of quality", never ends well long term

That's a great start point, as no one has to 'prove' anything to the other.

........and as far as high-end draftees possibly looking for a fresh start. That's my point exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying and it makes more sense for us than for most other teams, given the amount of accumulated high-end selected draftees we have on the books.

Re. Targeting ready to go talent: Had we got our way we'd now have Coniglio, Papley and Martin on the books. 3 players that would have supplanted anything else we had on our list, in the one year.....and we'd still likely have seen Newnes and Betts involved. That would make for a lot of young talent not have been given much of a look in.

Given we targeted what would have been, 3 premium recruits last year, why would we not now be looking to add 3 over the course of the next 2 years?
What has changed so dramatically that they wouldn't be needed. i.e. Papley and Williams this year and at least one 'serious' player the next? Not much, I'd say.

Add 3 players that take over from the starting 22 you have listed and you'll soon see just how many players are going to have to bide their time.
You may be right though....and I may end up being right. Until then.....

 

[Red Bull]

Or Essendon were completely off their rockers for not accepting that offer knowing Danihers injury issues. Not a chance they'll get anywhere near that offer this year, even if they match Sydneys offer.

Adrian has a massive ego but he’ll have no choice other than to accept the compensation pineapple for Daniher this year.
I’d love to see him match any Sydney offer though and lose Joe for nothing through the PSD.
Even a goose like Adrian should learn from Cochrane’s grandstanding last year ...

 

[Arr0w]

That's a great start point, as no one has to 'prove' anything to the other.

........and as far as high-end draftees possibly looking for a fresh start. That's my point exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying and it makes more sense for us than for most other teams, given the amount of accumulated high-end selected draftees we have on the books.

Re. Targeting ready to go talent: Had we got our way we'd now have Coniglio, Papley and Martin on the books. 3 players that would have supplanted anything else we had on our list, in the one year.....and we'd still likely have seen Newnes and Betts involved. That would make for a lot of young talent not have been given much of a look in.

Given we targeted what would have been, 3 premium recruits last year, why would we not now be looking to add 3 over the course of the next 2 years?
What has changed so dramatically that they wouldn't be needed. i.e. Papley and Williams this year and at least one 'serious' player the next? Not much, I'd say.

Add 3 players that take over from the starting 22 you have listed and you'll soon see just how many players are going to have to bide their time.
You may be right though....and I may end up being right. Until then.....

Harks, your model for successful rebuilds just doesn't exist, in regards to trading out high end talent that is considered definite best 22

• Tigers started their rebuild in 2007 (many dispute this suggesting it was 2010, either way it makes little difference to the rest). While they brought in players from other clubs (none of which cost 2 x 1st rounders), they never lost one high end draftee that was considered best 22 at another club, prior to tasting success
• Lions, considered to be the most recent rebuilding club (started 2013) that could now taste success. Not one of their high end draftees that were traded out is considered a lock at another club, perhaps apart from Aish. They too have brought in players from other clubs (none of which cost 2 x 1st rounders)

Why are people trying to rewrite a successful formula?

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Can’t understand why he hasn’t played more games this year.

He's a great player and one we should seriously enquire about. Hoping they get a couple of players back around finals time and they drop him tbh

 

[Michael Jezz]

"I just remember sitting there and being captivated by the way Clarko spoke" jaegar o'meara on why he joined hawthorn.

Carlton do not land trades because our leadership in the admin and football department lack charisma. Our past leaders could sell the club to the player and the dream to the parents. The football salary is usually a toss of a coin between to clubs... the tiebreaker is coach and corporate contacts for life after football and whether the president and GM can sell the dream. MLG & Liddle need to lift their game. Teague doesn't have the standing in the game yet

 

[Michael Jezz]

How did they force SOS to do anything? So now you think SOS wasn’t keen on Papley and he wanted Butler. Do you remeber at trade time when SOS was asked if we were keen on Butler, he said no. Agresta was asked the same thing closely after and said we were keen.

SOS was scapegoated for what? There is nothing new in there that this whole forum didn’t already know. We went hard for Papley, we risked missing out on Butler as we prioritised Papley and Betts and Papley fell through.

If Papley came off, SOS would have been hailed as a master, but we miss out and people can’t wait to lay the blame somewhere else. Butler would have been great, sometimes you miss targets for various reasons, but this crap regarding Martin was SOS”s guy and Betts was Eddies and Elliss was Liddle“s and Papley was Agresta“s is garbage.

You might have a gripe with the journalist...my post is based on his article, which basically made me come to the conclusion SoS towed the line on trade targets, so blame others for not recruiting butler

 

[HARKER]

Harks, your model for successful rebuilds just doesn't exist, in regards to trading out high end talent that is considered definite best 22

• Tigers started their rebuild in 2007 (many dispute this suggesting it was 2010, either way it makes little difference to the rest). While they brought in players from other clubs (none of which cost 2 x 1st rounders), they never lost one high end draftee that was considered best 22 at another club, prior to tasting success
• Lions, considered to be the most recent rebuilding club (started 2013) that could now taste success. Not one of their high end draftees that were traded out is considered a lock at another club, perhaps apart from Aish. They too have brought in players from other clubs (none of which cost 2 x 1st rounders)

Why are people trying to rewrite a successful formula?

Arrow. There is no one successful formula and since you're brining up the Lions, it again proves my point.

What have they done the past couple of years? Brought in senior players in Neale and Cameron.
Their first pick in 2018 was #21. Their first pick in 2019 was #22 after trading up.
Using the rebuild timeline you put forward, it's exactly our time to be looking at premium senior players.

Using your formula with Lions starting at 2013 and us at 2015.
In the period 2013 - 2017 The Lions took on 8 first rounders
In the period 2015 - 2019 The Blues took on 11 first rounders........therefore we have several more first rounders.

I know, there's this reason and that reason and so on.....but if you want to follow the Brisbane model, look what they've done in recent years.

 

[Arr0w]

Arrow. There is no one successful formula and since you're brining up the Lions, it again proves my point.

What have they done the past couple of years? Brought in senior players in Neale and Cameron.
Their first pick in 2018 was #21. Their first pick in 2019 was #22 after trading up.
Using the rebuild timeline you put forward, it's exactly our time to be looking at premium senior players.

Using your formula with Lions starting at 2013 and us at 2015.
In the period 2013 - 2017 The Lions took on 8 first rounders
In the period 2015 - 2019 The Blues took on 11 first rounders........therefore we have several more first rounders.

I know, there's this reason and that reason and so on.....but if you want to follow the Brisbane model, look what they've done in recent years.

You keep missing the point Harks

Already mentioned both sides targeting players, as will we, but not at the expense of best 22 talent, nor paying overs/2 x 1st

I have never moved the goal posts in our discussion

 

[HARKER]

You keep missing the point Harks
Already mentioned both sides targeting players, as will we, but not at the expense of best 22 talent, nor paying overs/2 x 1st
I have never moved the goal posts in our discussion

Yes you have. We were talking about our young 1st rounders, not best 22 talent and yes, Brisbane did move on Schache as well as Aish.

Was Ben Keys a first rounder also? Pretty close, if not being one pick after Cuningham.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Arrow. There is no one successful formula and since you're brining up the Lions, it again proves my point.

What have they done the past couple of years? Brought in senior players in Neale and Cameron.
Their first pick in 2018 was #21. Their first pick in 2019 was #22 after trading up.
Using the rebuild timeline you put forward, it's exactly our time to be looking at premium senior players.

Using your formula with Lions starting at 2013 and us at 2015.
In the period 2013 - 2017 The Lions took on 8 first rounders
In the period 2015 - 2019 The Blues took on 11 first rounders........therefore we have several more first rounders.

I know, there's this reason and that reason and so on.....but if you want to follow the Brisbane model, look what they've done in recent years.

They didn't trade two firsts on a single player though ..

 

[HARKER]

They didn't trade two firsts on a single player though ..

And we have? I don't recall.

Here's the thing that has to be remembered though - After our first three picks in the 2015 draft the next 8 first rounders have been midfielders;
Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Walsh, Philp and Kemp on top of acquiring midfielders we invested in, that were former first round picks in Setterfield and Kennedy. We also took Fisher just outside of the first round in '16.

10 first round midfielders aged 22 and younger in our squad right now. Will they all fit? Can they all fit?
I don't think so and if not....they're going to want homes elsewhere.

 

[My Hat]

"I just remember sitting there and being captivated by the way Clarko spoke" jaegar o'meara on why he joined hawthorn.

Carlton do not land trades because our leadership in the admin and football department lack charisma. Our past leaders could sell the club to the player and the dream to the parents. The football salary is usually a toss of a coin between to clubs... the tiebreaker is coach and corporate contacts for life after football and whether the president and GM can sell the dream. MLG & Liddle need to lift their game. Teague doesn't have the standing in the game yet

You're overgeneralising from a single data point. Every player is different and will respond to something different.

- JOM was clearly impressed by whatever Clarko was selling.

- McGovern apparently came to us in part because he liked Teague so much.

- Martin came to us in part because of the opportunity to play alongside Betts.

- Pretty sure I remember one of last year's top draftees mentioning that Teague was the positive stand out among all of their coaches' interviews, but I can't find the article just now.

- On the other hand we missed out on Shiel despite the private plane, meeting with Judd, etc. Apparently that was because Shiel thought Essendon were closer to a premiership than we were.

TL;DR: Simplistic narratives are simple. Reality tends to be more complicated.

 

[Arr0w]

Yes you have. We were talking about our young 1st rounders, not best 22 talent and yes, Brisbane did move on Schache as well as Aish.

Was Ben Keys a first rounder also? Pretty close, if not being one pick after Cuningham.

Go back and read my statements

 

[HARKER]

Go back and read my statements

I don't read posts in full first time round. I'm sure as hell not going to go back for seconds.

I was talking about our depth of young talent that will find it hard to stay together and used some of your examples that weren't fully realised.

 

[Arr0w]

And we have? I don't recall.

Here's the thing that has to be remembered though - After our first three picks in the 2015 draft the next 8 first rounders have been midfielders;
Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Walsh, Philp and Kemp on top of acquiring midfielders we invested in, that were former first round picks in Setterfield and Kennedy. We also took Fisher just outside of the first round in '16.

10 first round midfielders aged 22 and younger in our squad right now. Will they all fit? Can they all fit?
I don't think so and if not....they're going to want homes elsewhere.

Labeling again? We have been through this right

Just stop regurgitating

 

[Eiffel 65]

I agree we do see it differently. I can't see us targeting 3-4 players over the next 2 years that would be definitely best 22. Let's say we somehow attract the likes of Papley and Williams this year, add them to what our list looks like in the 28 year and under list. Other acquisitions, would be lesser, foot solider types that are purely cover, just like Newnes, Gibbons, who until our younger players push out of the side

Beyond this year, 28 years old and younger

Plowman Weitering Marchbank
Docherty Macreadie/BSOS Williamson
Walsh Cripps Setterfield
Martin Charlie Cuningham
Fisher McKay McGovern

TDK Kemp Stocker

LOB SPS Silvagni Dow

EMG : Newman Cottrell Kennedy Newnes Gibbons Lang Ramsay Philp Honey Pittonet

Gone Levi, Murphy, Ed, Simmo, Jones, Krooz, Betts

There will be injuries, form slumps and if the likes of Newnes, Gibbons, Pittonet types are then considered break glass options, we are in a good position. There will always be players moving, money, opportunities, family, but there is no reason to force a trade given what this group looks like in the future

Any high end draftee that doesn't progress, may look for a fresh start, but that is not just a Carlton occurrence, it is league wide

No reason we should ever again, emulate a Kennedy situation, as not only is it poor list management, it is a poor cultural decision, most times, they go hand in hand. This "having to give up something of quality", never ends well long term

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[Arr0w]

I don't read posts in full first time round. I'm sure as hell not going to go back for seconds.

I was talking about our depth of young talent that will find it hard to stay together and used some of your examples that weren't fully realised.

So was I, clearly you misunderstood what I posted

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

You're overgeneralising from a single data point. Every player is different and will respond to something different.

- JOM was clearly impressed by whatever Clarko was selling.

- McGovern apparently came to us in part because he liked Teague so much.

- Martin came to us in part because of the opportunity to play alongside Betts.

- Pretty sure I remember one of last year's top draftees mentioning that Teague was the positive stand out among all of their coaches' interviews, but I can't find the article just now.

- On the other hand we missed out on Shiel despite the private plane, meeting with Judd, etc. Apparently that was because Shiel thought Essendon were closer to a premiership than we were.

TL;DR: Simplistic narratives are simple. Reality tends to be more complicated.

SA Dylan Stephens and Cameron Taheny both loved Teaguey’s interview process...

 

[Jimmyonesix]

And we have? I don't recall.

Here's the thing that has to be remembered though - After our first three picks in the 2015 draft the next 8 first rounders have been midfielders;
Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Walsh, Philp and Kemp on top of acquiring midfielders we invested in, that were former first round picks in Setterfield and Kennedy. We also took Fisher just outside of the first round in '16.

10 first round midfielders aged 22 and younger in our squad right now. Will they all fit? Can they all fit?
I don't think so and if not....they're going to want homes elsewhere.
[/QUO
I think the question at the moment is are they good enough to be in the team-- out of that list only SPS and Walsh ( Fischer to a lesser degree) have shown consistent form at any level setterfield still needs time to show a true 4 quarter game -- we were lucky the first year with our talls just not lucky with injuries

 

[Cripptonite]

SA Dylan Stephens and Cameron Taheny both loved Teaguey’s interview process...

Lachie Ash also publicly stated his first preference was Carlton before the draft. I’m pretty sure he liked Teague.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

When Harker and Arrow are online at the same time...

 

[Gethelred]

Lachie Ash also publicly stated his first preference was Carlton before the draft. I’m pretty sure he liked Teague.

He's was just getting ready to get drafted by GWS. After all, everyone knows that getting drafted there gives you a 1 in 4 chance of playing for Carlton inside 4 seasons.

 

[Brackets]

Harks, your model for successful rebuilds just doesn't exist, in regards to trading out high end talent that is considered definite best 22

• Tigers started their rebuild in 2007 (many dispute this suggesting it was 2010, either way it makes little difference to the rest). While they brought in players from other clubs (none of which cost 2 x 1st rounders), they never lost one high end draftee that was considered best 22 at another club, prior to tasting success
• Lions, considered to be the most recent rebuilding club (started 2013) that could now taste success. Not one of their high end draftees that were traded out is considered a lock at another club, perhaps apart from Aish. They too have brought in players from other clubs (none of which cost 2 x 1st rounders)

Why are people trying to rewrite a successful formula?

HARKER suggested moving on the likes of Jack and LOB though, not 'high end talent that is considered definite best 22'.

They're two very different discussions. It was more of a risk for the Lions to move on Schache and Aish than it would be for us to move on Jack and LOB, if we're projecting pre-draft potential. If we're talking output and position in best 22 though, it would be very similar.

 

[Arr0w]

HARKER suggested moving on the likes of Jack and LOB though, not 'high end talent that is considered definite best 22'.

They're two very different discussions. It was more of a risk for the Lions to move on Schache and Aish than it would be for us to move on Jack and LOB, if we're projecting pre-draft potential. If we're talking output and position in best 22 though, it would be very similar.

LOB is high end talent, why would we move him on if he hasn't reached maturity, nor an understanding as to why he is not currently in the side

We can still target/obtain the likes of Papley without fracturing the group of these future core players