List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Posted this a while ago, in another thread....

Between 2007-2014 drafts, only Kruezer and Cripps are still at the club, 2E, Holman and Gowers, the only others still in the game. Pretty damning

I imagine Curnow, Cas and Robbo would be in that range too. It was a very poor period though.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Yep they just weren’t as good as we hoped exactly the same as what could happen to us now.
These are some of the players, age and some of the credientials of that list in 2009

Backline
Russell 22 (2nd in B&F in a Finals year). Thorton 25 (Handy player who almost played 200 games. Hawthorn chased extremely hard). Armfield 22 (almost 150 game player)

Yarran 18 (Hugely talented pick 6) Jamison 25 (hugely underrated reliable defender, rarely beaten) Scotland 28 (B&F, AA squad, 268 games, second most touches in AFL season)

Stevens 29 (star player) Gibbs 20 (one of the highest rated pick 1 in history) Simpson 24 (club great)

Fisher 24 (kicked 39 in a year). Waite 26. (What could’ve been but still a very good player) Andrew Walker 22 (kicked 56 in a season)

Garlett 19. (Kicked over 40 goals four times and 39 in his second season) Fev (Star) Betts 22 (one of the greatest small forwards of all time.)

Kruezer 19 (pick 1). Murphy 21 (AFL MVP, pick 1) Judd 25 (one of the leagues greats)

All those guys were 29 or less. Nearly all you would’ve thought had 4 years left.
That gives us 4 years to add to that core.

that’s not mentioning
Houlihan 27,
Carrazzo 25, one of the leagues best taggers.
Grigg 19, ended up a premiership player
Hadley 23 already was a premiership player
Jacobs 21, AA
Hampson 21, pick 17
Bower 21, pick 19
Hartlett 22, pick 24
Robinson 19, still a very handy player.
Houlihan 27, 200 game player.

that list won 13 games that season and you would’ve thought no one would retire within three years and about 75% of them would’ve had improvement in them. It was a much younger side then we have now and most likely far out performs us.
Nothing wrong at all with how that list was built, and there is huge depth considering that we had so many years to add to it. they just didn’t live upto the hype and we stuffed up the second faze.

as I said just look at the ages of those guys

What a great post and summary. A couple of points to remember:

1. We have previously rebuilt via the draft
2. We did have the list depth and talent

We just flowered it up good and proper in every sense of the word.
Which makes me sad.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Fair point. But at least they only drafted Jordan Gysbert.

who?

 

[DangerousD]

The main difference being that we didn't attempt to improve draft position at all. The only players who were on the trade table either asked for the trade (Jacobs, Hamill a bit earlier) or were sacked like Fevola. Kennedy being part of the Judd trade. We only targeted established players during this time (Judd, Warnock, McLean, missed on O'Keeffe). The strategy simply wasn't there.

Trading up wasn’t a thing that happened much during those years, but I dispute we didn’t do a proper rebuild, we hit the draft consistently for years, adding a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks and as you said, we also added experienced players, we also added top end youth from other teams (Henderson), the strategy is very similar, build through the draft and add experienced players after bringing in the kids.

The only difference is, they were all really bad footballers or were developed so bad, that they became bad footballers.

 

[Arr0w]

You don’t have to have that strategy to rebuild but.

The club never embraced the draft, a dedicated rebuild until 2015

Even when we had talent, we were arrogant, thinking we had done enough and generally traded in players that were either finished as players, or never good enough

While I believe we have made mistakes from 2015, like any club, it is drastically better than previous eras

I have no issue targeting FA's or contracted player, with premium picks, as long as we continue to replenish youth/from below through the draft

We are on the right track, it's not a time to be impatient

 

[reubsblues]

What's Luke Parkers contract status
He is the type of player we should be targeting
still only 27 plays inside and outside can go forward and kick goals

 

[Doro]

Trading up wasn’t a thing that happened much during those years, but I dispute we didn’t do a proper rebuild, we hit the draft consistently for years, adding a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks and as you said, we also added experienced players, we also added top end youth from other teams (Henderson), the strategy is very similar, build through the draft and add experienced players after bringing in the kids.

The only difference is, they were all really bad footballers or were developed so bad, that they became bad footballers.

Geelong, Hawthorn and St kilda all traded into the draft and were the main contenders through the years mentioned along with Collingwood. There was no free agency at the time so the top end of the draft was the best way of getting the elite players into the club. Happy to disagree on this previous rebuild, as I said the strategy throughout was lacking.

 

[Juice030103]

Is there anyone out there that people are actually confident about coming to carlton?

 

[swuzzlebubble]

The "starved of opportunity" recruiting tends to have a pretty low success rate

 

[DangerousD]

That list only had the one elite player in Judd. Fev had his Brownlow moment just after our elimination final loss and Stevens was a level below elite. Murphy was thereabouts in 2011 but injury brought that to a halt. Compare that to the stars in the Hawthorn and Geelong sides of the time, we didn't get multiple picks in the first round other than 2005 and we didn't get far in finals because of it.

Taking 10 first round draft picks, 5 second rounders and 6 third rounders, in 8 drafts, whilst bringing in the best player in the comp, is more than enough for any club.
lots of great players there, if only one is elite, then currently we only have one elite player too.

Saying the reason we didn’t do well, was due to not bringing in enough first rounders, when we brought in 10 compared to the Hawks 11 in the years 2004-2011, is a bit silly. The reason why we didn’t kick on, is because 3/4 of the players we brought in were garbage.

 

[ABigOlDoofus]

What's Luke Parkers contract status
He is the type of player we should be targeting
still only 27 plays inside and outside can go forward and kick goals

Contracted until 2021 where he is a restricted FA.

However, he's been a part of their leadership group since he was 22, and is now one of their co-captains. I see absolutely 0 chance of anyone dislodging him from the Swans as it stands. It would require a Crows-esque cultural collapse for him to want to leave IMO.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Is there anyone out there that people are actually confident about coming to carlton?

Of the names being spoken about recently, the only one id have any level of confidence about is Wines. Then probably only a small level of confidence.

 

[thylacine60]

Is there anyone out there that people are actually confident about coming to carlton?

funny story.........

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Whoever mentioned Brayshaw is on the money. He, Viney, Harmes or even Petracca might show some interest if we shake the tree. Must be sick of competing for the same footy.

McLean, Richards, Jong, Wallis all in a similar predicament at the Dogs, and all would improve us.

Id be interested in having a crack at Viney.

 

[DangerousD]

Posted this a while ago, in another thread....

Between 2007-2014 drafts, only Kruezer and Cripps are still at the club, 2E, Holman and Gowers, the only others still in the game. Pretty damning

This is at the heart of my little disagreement with you in regards to rebuild and strategy. I feel the strategy was there, build talent through the draft, take lots of first and second rounders, then trade for needs.

Its clearly evident by your above post, that our recruiting (or development) was totally utterly garbage. I see a big rebuild, that fell over a big cliff.

 

[Juddernaut08]

who?

exactly

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

We’ve got the mid we need, he’ll be back next season

 

[katmanblue]

Contracted until 2021 where he is a restricted FA.

However, he's been a part of their leadership group since he was 22, and is now one of their co-captains. I see absolutely 0 chance of anyone dislodging him from the Swans as it stands. It would require a Crows-esque cultural collapse for him to want to leave IMO.

So your saying there's a chance?

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[katmanblue]

funny story.........

Tragedy not comedy

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[DangerousD]

Whilst I am very keen to bring in a quality player come trade time, I think we need to be prepared to pay up or miss out, below is a few previous trades. We aren’t going to get any top end player for a packet of chips. But as long as they are the right player, does the cost in picks, matter in the end?

Jaeger: Pick 10 and a 2nd
Shiel: 2 first rounders with a 2nd coming back
D.Smith: complicated trade, but gave up pick 11
Prestia: Pick 6
Cameron: Pick 12

 

[TheKITC]

The "starved of opportunity" recruiting tends to have a pretty low success rate

Not really sure I would agree with that...

Josh P. Kennedy springs to mind instantly, Ben McGlynn who went with him was a very good role player. Ricky Henderson (outright delisted) has been very good for Hawthorn. Josh Bruce has forged a good career and had his moments. Tom Lynch. Josh Jenkins (the first time around). Jay Shulz. Jarryd Lyons. Marley Williams (I'm no fan but he's found a spot). Hayden Crozier. Dan Butler has started well, kind of wish we got him.

Basically name your ruckman: Stef Martin, Jarrod Witts, Darren Jolly, Ivan Maric, Sam Jacobs (kind of), Toby Nankervis etc. etc.

Heath Scotland was exemplery for us, as Liam Jones is shaping up to be. Marc Pittonet has started well. Ed Curnow has done well.

I'm sure I've missed plenty and have not even bothered mentioning players who were constantly overlooked at drafts, who could be included in being legitimately and totally starved of opportunity. If you have a role in mind and don't expect AA level, there are 100% players to be found...

 

[Jimmyonesix]

involved?! Wouldn't think that's common practice?!
- Thinks Carlton played 'their cards' too soon and badly in not getting his management on-side before trying to deal with Sydney

Trading up wasn’t a thing that happened much during those years, but I dispute we didn’t do a proper rebuild, we hit the draft consistently for years, adding a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks and as you said, we also added experienced players, we also added top end youth from other teams (Henderson), the strategy is very similar, build through the draft and add experienced players after bringing in the kids.

The only difference is, they were all really bad footballers or were developed so bad, that they became bad footballers.

Injuries derailed us during that period then malthouse Didn't help -- kruezer Murphy Gibbs Judd ( how many games they play together ) final against WC Gibbs kruezer out,,
Losing fevola totally changed our structure Especially since Kennedy gone - Waite missed a lot ..
we weren't hawthorn or Geelong but when we had a core we didn't know how to add and build around it to cover injuries or improve our list .. probably should of hired better staff for Ratten as he had a game plan than when side was at full strength was more than competitive -- then he had to re jog without fev's goals ..

All in all we turned 8-10 years pain into 20 ..

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Whilst I am very keen to bring in a quality player come trade time, I think we need to be prepared to pay up or miss out, below is a few previous trades. We aren’t going to get any top end player for a packet of chips. But as long as they are the right player, does the cost in picks, matter in the end?

Jaeger: Pick 10 and a 2nd
Shiel: 2 first rounders with a 2nd coming back
D.Smith: complicated trade, but gave up pick 11
Prestia: Pick 6
Cameron: Pick 12

This year all we have to do to get Crouch to come to us is convince him. Crows will let him walk for an extra top 5 pick and I can’t see too many other Vic clubs being massive on him.

Get that done early and it makes us much more attractive for a contracted guy like Papley too.

Crouch is a must for mine as an FA.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Not really sure I would agree with that...

Josh P. Kennedy springs to mind instantly, Ben McGlynn who went with him was a very good role player. Ricky Henderson (outright delisted) has been very good for Hawthorn. Josh Bruce has forged a good career and had his moments. Tom Lynch. Josh Jenkins (the first time around). Jay Shulz. Jarryd Lyons. Marley Williams (I'm no fan but he's found a spot). Hayden Crozier. Dan Butler has started well, kind of wish we got him.

Basically name your ruckman: Stef Martin, Jarrod Witts, Darren Jolly, Ivan Maric, Sam Jacobs (kind of), Toby Nankervis etc. etc.

Heath Scotland was exemplery for us, as Liam Jones is shaping up to be. Marc Pittonet has started well. Ed Curnow has done well.

I'm sure I've missed plenty and have not even bothered mentioning players who were constantly overlooked at drafts, who could be included in being legitimately and totally starved of opportunity. If you have a role in mind and don't expect AA level, there are 100% players to be found...

Yes I meant apart from those

 

[F_therest]

This year all we have to do to get Crouch to come to us is convince him. Crows will let him walk for an extra top 5 pick and I can’t see too many other Vic clubs being massive on him.

Get that done early and it makes us much more attractive for a contracted guy like Papley too.

Crouch is a must for mine as an FA.

IMO why would we want a slow, one dimensional player like Crouch?

Adelaide's issue is they have too many similar, slow mids with the Crouch brothers and Sloane.

As good as Cripps is, the fact he's not the quickest or the best spreader from a contest means we can't have other slow mids around him. We use Cripps and Ed at almost every centre square bounce...supported by someone quicker like Martin/Murphy/Cunners/Setterfield (though Setters aint that quick).

Just because he's a FA doesn't mean we should go for him...he has to fit our team balance/structure and he will still cost salary cap that could potentially be used better elsewhere. I just don't think he'd actually improve us that much if at all.