List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

The last time we were good enough to cough up our first pick and recruit for need, we ended up with this bloke:

View attachment 897687

And used our other first round pick that draft on Lucas, memories

 

[TheKITC]

And used our other first round pick that draft on Lucas, memories

I've got a wild hypothetical... If we had of picked Daniel Talia (I remember praying we did pre-draft and being so disappointed with another flanker) instead of Kane Lucas, might we have taken Josh Schache instead of Jacob Weitering years later??

Stars may have aligned. Sliding doors... how do I tag Damien Barrett?

*X-Files music*

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

I've got a wild hypothetical... If we had of picked Daniel Talia (I remember praying we did pre-draft and being so disappointed with another flanker) instead of Kane Lucas, might we have taken Josh Schache instead of Jacob Weitering years later??

Stars may have aligned. Sliding doors... how do I tag Damien Barrett?

*X-Files music*

Probably means that we wouldn’t have loaded up on KPD in the 2010 draft: Watson (18), McCarthy (36).

Would have selected Jack Darling with pick 18 instead

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I've got a wild hypothetical... If we had of picked Daniel Talia (I remember praying we did pre-draft and being so disappointed with another flanker) instead of Kane Lucas, might we have taken Josh Schache instead of Jacob Weitering years later??

Stars may have aligned. Sliding doors... how do I tag Damien Barrett?

*X-Files music*

Wanted Talia as one of our picks as well, he’s coming towards the twilight years and as good as he’s been we’d need Weitering to take over from him, he was clear #1 imo...

 

[ABigOlDoofus]

IMO why would we want a slow, one dimensional player like Crouch?

Adelaide's issue is they have too many similar, slow mids with the Crouch brothers and Sloane.

As good as Cripps is, the fact he's not the quickest or the best spreader from a contest means we can't have other slow mids around him. We use Cripps and Ed at almost centre square bounce...supported by someone quicker like Martin/Murphy/Cunners/Setterfield (though Setters aint that quick).

Just because he's a FA doesn't mean we should go for him...he has to fit our team balance/structure and he will still cost salary cap that could potentially be used better elsewhere. I just don't think he'd actually improve us that much if at all.

I'm not a big fan of either of the Crouch brothers at all. Don't get me wrong, I'd take them for the right price, but they're not worth what we'd have to give up to get them.

They were both top 10 in disposals per game last year (Matt avg. 32, Brad avg. 30), but I'd almost take any other player in the top 50 for avg. disposals over them. Why? Because they do absolutely nothing with the ball. They're extractors, plain and simple, and don't do anything other than that really. They don't damage the scoreboard, they don't create opportunities to score with precise kicks inside 50, they're not that good defensively, they're not athletic enough to burst out of packs and surge the ball forward the only thing they do well is get the ball and give it to someone damaging. Don't get me wrong, extractors are important, but we only have so many resources to spend getting big fish, so surely the big fish we should be hunting are the damaging players the extractors are giving the ball to? Besides, we already have the best extractor in the league in Cripps, PLUS he is damaging going forward.

This argument also extends to our chasing of Wines, however he can be damaging going forward too, so I like his fit a lot better than the Crouch's.

I honestly see Brad staying at the Crows, unless he takes a massive paycut, cos I honestly don't see who would want him for his perceived price. 12 months ago I would have said GC would snap him up but they've actually made some really smart list management decisions lately, AND have a better, younger version of him in Rowell (although he has only played 3 games so I might be jumping the gun a bit on that one), so I doubt they take him either.

Of the FA's available to us in the off-season, here's who I think we should be looking at instead of Brad:

Zac Williams (RFA) - Been discussed a lot here, but whether we use him off of half back or in the middle, he is a real weapon with his elite kicking, incredible pace and speed, strong marking, and when put in the guts, strong pressure and tackling (from round 18-GF last year he averaged 5.5 tackles per game).

Isaac Smith (UFA) - Is he past his best? Yes. Will he play all 22 games for us? Hopefully not. But as proven in the few games so far this year, he can still influence matches and the knowledge and experience he can provide to our up and coming wingers in LOB and Cotrell would be invaluable. Would hopefully pick him up fairly cheaply.

Jack Viney (RFA) - Like Wines, is an inside bull/extractor to ease some load off of Crippa, however unlike the Crouch's has great tackle numbers, having averaged 7 a game multiple times in his career. Would only want one more of his type though, and since he's in the Melbourne leadership group I'm not sure how gettable he is.

Most of these guys have been discussed at length already, but just my two cents. I'm also not going to talk about who I think we should be targeting in trade, i.e McLean, Gus Brayshaw etc. because there's no indication at this point that they're either wanting to leave, or available.

Anyway, this was just a huge rant about why I would be fuming if we decided to target Brad if there are other fish available. Not the kind of player we want to be using prime capital on.

 

[F_therest]

I'm not a big fan of either of the Crouch brothers at all. Don't get me wrong, I'd take them for the right price, but they're not worth what we'd have to give up to get them.

They were both top 10 in disposals per game last year (Matt avg. 32, Brad avg. 30), but I'd almost take any other player in the top 50 for avg. disposals over them. Why? Because they do absolutely nothing with the ball. They're extractors, plain and simple, and don't do anything other than that really. They don't damage the scoreboard, they don't create opportunities to score with precise kicks inside 50, they're not that good defensively, they're not athletic enough to burst out of packs and surge the ball forward the only thing they do well is get the ball and give it to someone damaging. Don't get me wrong, extractors are important, but we only have so many resources to spend getting big fish, so surely the big fish we should be hunting are the damaging players the extractors are giving the ball to? Besides, we already have the best extractor in the league in Cripps, PLUS he is damaging going forward.

This argument also extends to our chasing of Wines, however he can be damaging going forward too, so I like his fit a lot better than the Crouch's.

I honestly see Brad staying at the Crows, unless he takes a massive paycut, cos I honestly don't see who would want him for his perceived price. 12 months ago I would have said GC would snap him up but they've actually made some really smart list management decisions lately, AND have a better, younger version of him in Rowell (although he has only played 3 games so I might be jumping the gun a bit on that one), so I doubt they take him either.

Of the FA's available to us in the off-season, here's who I think we should be looking at instead of Brad:

Zac Williams (RFA) - Been discussed a lot here, but whether we use him off of half back or in the middle, he is a real weapon with his elite kicking, incredible pace and speed, strong marking, and when put in the guts, strong pressure and tackling (from round 18-GF last year he averaged 5.5 tackles per game).

Isaac Smith (UFA) - Is he past his best? Yes. Will he play all 22 games for us? Hopefully not. But as proven in the few games so far this year, he can still influence matches and the knowledge and experience he can provide to our up and coming wingers in LOB and Cotrell would be invaluable. Would hopefully pick him up fairly cheaply.

Jack Viney (RFA) - Like Wines, is an inside bull/extractor to ease some load off of Crippa, however unlike the Crouch's has great tackle numbers, having averaged 7 a game multiple times in his career. Would only want one more of his type though, and since he's in the Melbourne leadership group I'm not sure how gettable he is.

Most of these guys have been discussed at length already, but just my two cents. I'm also not going to talk about who I think we should be targeting in trade, i.e McLean, Gus Brayshaw etc. because there's no indication at this point that they're either wanting to leave, or available.

Anyway, this was just a huge rant about why I would be fuming if we decided to target Brad if there are other fish available. Not the kind of player we want to be using prime capital on.

Agree wholeheartedly with your Crouch summary and why he doesn't appear to be a great fit for us. He'd be perfect for a team like Essendon.

Would love Zac Williams...is a NSW boy though. Geez i just looked him up, assumed he was one of their top draft picks but he was taken at #54 in the ROOKIE draft. Good for him.

Can't agree with ya on Smith...great player but he's almost 32. I'd much rather develop a younger mid, we have plenty of them. By Rd 1 2021 LOB will be a 4th year mid...you'd hope he'd be ready by then. Or from the weekends team, Dow/Philp/Fisher.

Can't see Viney leaving Melbourne...I also feel his output has diminished in the last year or so. I feel he doesn't improve us ENOUGH over what we have to be worth it...i'm only interested in guns that clearly improve our team.

Depending on cost, I would be interested in Wines...it'd be nice if he had a bit more speed/burst but he's a damn good player still as he showed on the weekend...definitely more damaging and aggressive than Crouch IMO.

Papley is still my no.1 target and we've clearly already got a foot in the door with him and the Swans after last year so is very realistic. A gun and can be basically a second Martin, playing forward/mid and providing a mix of skill with intensity. If we only add Papley during the off-season i'd be ecstatic...a year on surely a deal will get done if he's interested, like what happened with Gibbs & Kelly.

 

[therubbernub]

i dont really understand all the talk about small forwards and midfielders. We have some real talent coming through in Kemp, Philp Honey, Ramsay and not to mention Dow LOB, fisher, Stocker who didnt play on the weekend. Thats 8 players that are showing signs . Add owies to the forward mix .

 

[TheKITC]

i dont really understand all the talk about small forwards and midfielders. We have some real talent coming through in Kemp, Philp Honey, Ramsay and not to mention Dow LOB, fisher, Stocker who didnt play on the weekend. Thats 8 players that are showing signs . Add owies to the forward mix .

Kemp, Philp, Honey and Ramsay have played about 6 reserve scratch matches between them. Two of them maybe could end up as small forwards and one of those two is a rookie... Owies is a longshot but I am liking his small steps thus far.

Dow, O'Brien and Stocker will never be small forwards and have a ways to go to even give us any confidence at all beyond their potential (which I think they all have) that they will be long term players. I'm confident they all can make it, but on output they haven't done anything other than show glimpses to varying degrees. They are all two seasons away minimum before becoming reliable, productive senior players IMO.

Fisher is the only one at this stage who has any runs on the board and has given us anything tangible to go by to be able to say that he is a player. He looks a jet and granted, it could be at either or both of those positions mentioned.

We absolutely need depth in the midfield and we need it pretty darn soon if you ask me. We need to add to our stocks here in the short-medium term, I think that is undeniable.

 

[Team DJ]

Can't see Brad Crouch going anywhere to be honest.
Hes as thick as anything with his brother, Tex and Roo.
Hes just gotten into the pub business is SA too im pretty sure.

Crows will have some money off the books at years end, and is still in a decent age profile for them to want to keep.

 

[Team DJ]

Add that to the fact that he isn't necessarily a player of need and I'd focus elsewhere.

Can't see Brad Crouch going anywhere to be honest.
Hes as thick as anything with his brother, Tex and Roo.
Hes just gotten into the pub business is SA too im pretty sure.

Crows will have some money off the books at years end, and is still in a decent age profile for them to want to keep.

 

[Wily trout]

i dont really understand all the talk about small forwards and midfielders. We have some real talent coming through in Kemp, Philp Honey, Ramsay and not to mention Dow LOB, fisher, Stocker who didnt play on the weekend. Thats 8 players that are showing signs . Add owies to the forward mix .

Agree with you about the quality coming through from the last two drafts and Fisher, but we need some support for Cripps now. With so many kids showing really good signs, maybe it is the year to not go so,hard at the draft and trade for mature mids or go harder for Papley.

 

[HARKER]

i dont really understand all the talk about small forwards and midfielders. We have some real talent coming through in Kemp, Philp Honey, Ramsay and not to mention Dow LOB, fisher, Stocker who didnt play on the weekend. Thats 8 players that are showing signs . Add owies to the forward mix .

I don't think we can wait for every player to develop/be developed to the vision we may have for them.

We didn't need a large sample to see just how creative the likes of Betts & Martin have been forward.
Owies, Honey and co are unproven and won't get to any standard required for some years yet (and that's if they remain on the list), therefore if goal-kickers are available, we should have a look....and if they're not available....we should work even harder.

 

[blue healer]

Agree with you about the quality coming through from the last two drafts and Fisher, but we need some support for Cripps now. With so many kids showing really good signs, maybe it is the year to not go so,hard at the draft and trade for mature mids or go harder for Papley.

We seem to have been saying this for about 3 years now.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

We seem to have been saying this for about 3 years now.

Hence we've been a cellar-dweller

 

[DangerousD]

This year all we have to do to get Crouch to come to us is convince him. Crows will let him walk for an extra top 5 pick and I can’t see too many other Vic clubs being massive on him.

Get that done early and it makes us much more attractive for a contracted guy like Papley too.

Crouch is a must for mine as an FA.

Whilst I have been keen to get a Crouch, I’m only keen because he is free, I’m not sure he is the midfield type that we need. Guys like Treloar, Parker, Shiel, Kelly, Zorko, Bont, Cogs would suit us a lot better. Footballers of this caliber will cost a lot and I’m happy to pay up.

I know hise guys are contracted, I’m just referring to their playing style.

 

[DangerousD]

i dont really understand all the talk about small forwards and midfielders. We have some real talent coming through in Kemp, Philp Honey, Ramsay and not to mention Dow LOB, fisher, Stocker who didnt play on the weekend. Thats 8 players that are showing signs . Add owies to the forward mix .

Because the list you have just given, is 4 guys who have never played an AFL game or even a competitive VFL game, 2 players who aren’t in our best 22 and Fish who has been struggling.

 

[TheVapors]

I can definitely get behind the Papley talk, would be a great replacement for Eddie going into next year. A small forward setup of Papley, Martin, and Cuningham, with one rotating into the middle would be really dangerous.

I’d like to see if any of our young midfielders step up over the year before committing to trading in some experience. I’m still bullish that the talent we have is going to click at some stage. Wins like the one we had over Geelong can really instil some confidence in our players. If we can string a few more together, I think we’ll start to see some of our younger players really start to step up.

 

[HARKER]

I can definitely get behind the Papley talk, would be a great replacement for Eddie going into next year. A small forward setup of Papley, Martin, and Cuningham, with one rotating into the middle would be really dangerous.

I’d like to see if any of our young midfielders step up over the year before committing to trading in some experience. I’m still bullish that the talent we have is going to click at some stage. Wins like the one we had over Geelong can really instil some confidence in our players. If we can string a few more together, I think we’ll start to see some of our younger players really start to step up.

You'd like to see ..... I need to see

We can't just park all these young mids in the 2's whilst gaining some not-so-great mids and playing them in favour.
By the end of this year one or two of; Dow, Setterfield, Fisher or Kennedy have to come through and become starting midfielders.
They've all been in the system long enough to start stamping some authority.
We then have Stocker, Kemp, Philp next year.

A Coniglio would have been perfect (A genuine, quality goal-kicking mid) but I just don't see the same with BCrouch.
It just goes back to the same point: Who ever we aim for, should make our team immediately and visibly better.

 

[Manhattanite]

You'd like to see ..... I need to see

We can't just park all these young mids in the 2's whilst gaining some not-so-great mids and playing them in favour.
By the end of this year one or two of; Dow, Setterfield, Fisher or Kennedy have to come through and become starting midfielders.
They've all been in the system long enough to start stamping some authority.
We then have Stocker, Kemp, Philp next year.

A Coniglio would have been perfect (A genuine, quality goal-kicking mid) but I just don't see the same with BCrouch.
It just goes back to the same point: Who ever we aim for, should make our team immediately and visibly better.

Further to your point we have enough B graders right now (some may get to A but will take years to see) ... we need an A grader because many of our Bs won’t make our best 22 - which means if we have to trade two B graders for an A grader then we should even if it seems very expensive eg Dow + Fisher for Coniglio would seem overpaying but that’s probably what we need to do to get more A grade talent to balance out the B grade talent

p.s. yes I know Cogs was a free agent - just using him as an example of whom we should pay up for - Josh Kelly would be another total worth overpaying for




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[iAsbestos]

The CFC won't pay that, if for no other reason than to not lose face.

It makes for tricky navigation for us in that - What are the pieces we need that will get us closer to a list that can win a flag.
I don't care if the CFC are seen to be paying overs for a player they need, than to get a bargain we don't need. It's all relative.

Two firsts for a small fwd bloody dreaming

 

[iAsbestos]

Posted this a while ago, in another thread....

Between 2007-2014 drafts, only Kruezer and Cripps are still at the club, 2E, Holman and Gowers, the only others still in the game. Pretty damning

Classic Rodgers recruiting.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

i dont really understand all the talk about small forwards and midfielders. We have some real talent coming through in Kemp, Philp Honey, Ramsay and not to mention Dow LOB, fisher, Stocker who didnt play on the weekend. Thats 8 players that are showing signs . Add owies to the forward mix .

One limitation of relying on the draftees coming through is that generally they'll only replace the senior players going out the other end.

 

[bigm386]

Plus one thing about Rodgers/Hughes era, we seemed really good at finding players in the Rookie Draft.

Going back to 2003.

Carrazzo, Betts, Garlett, Sam Jacobs, Casboult, Simon White (not a world beater!), Tuohy, Ed Curnow and Tom Bell.

Obviously a heap of misses in there. But we seemed to do much better in the Rookie draft back in the day.

 

[HARKER]

Classic Rodgers recruiting.

But you have to add ECurnow, Rowe and Casboult to that list. That makes it so much better.

The Hughes/Rogers wash-up wasn't great to say the least but for this exercise...and to be fair...we do have to add back players that were traded out.
Yarran, Menzel, Tuohy, Jacobs, Gibbs was '06, Robinson & Garlett were ousted for indiscretions. Still not great though.

 

[Coona Blues]

You'd like to see ..... I need to see
…………………………………………………...………….
A Coniglio would have been perfect (A genuine, quality goal-kicking mid) but I just don't see the same with BCrouch.
It just goes back to the same point: Who ever we aim for, should make our team immediately and visibly better.

Absolutely Coniglio would have been perfect. However, I was ultra bullish on the merits of Jack Martin, however his contribution to the team
and ultimately the list balance goes beyond even my expectation. He is a genuine front line midfielder not just a forward come pinch hitter.
Jack brings to us that bridging player between Murphy and Ed Curnow and our pack of talented young midfielders that we have longed for.

This ultimately detracts from the forward dynamic. I was sceptical of longevity of Eddie after a lack lustre pre season (and rep game). Always
lauded the club for bringing him back. It was the one decision I couldn't agree with SOS's stance. Blind Freddie could see how much he could
bring to the group, even with limited on field output. Like most rejoicing after last Saturday. We live in hope he can compete for this season
and next. I had hope after our drafting last year that one of the young, somewhat speculative draftees would produce, particularly as small
medium forwards. More than ever before, I now have confidence we have sufficient talent and importantly, commitment on the list to preclude
the absolute need to trade in a mature player. Honey is looking like the "pea", but Owies is quietly building a case as well. While more midfielder,
Philp could easily be seen as a pressure forward in his formative years, and even Phillips has shown plenty already to be optimistic about.

Back to the midfielders. While maturing a little slower than we would like, Setterfield, Dow and Stocker provide a quality maturing young
inside core. Walshy is already a staple and his role will be adapted over time to find the best fit/balance. Zac Fisher is a proven young talent,
however his size is an issue in ascertaining his ongoing role. Cuningham has become more forward, but is plenty talented through the midfield.
Gibbons is an adequate mid, guaranteed to give 100%. I still have faith that Kennedy could play a significant role, he looked so much more
mobile in the vision of the Cats scratch match (remember the physical progression of one Daisy Thomas). Jack Silvagni may be being groomed
as our post EC stopper. LOB is a banker on the wing, more when than if he locks down a permanent spot. The x factor comes in the form of
Sam Philp and Brodie Kemp. Philp has pretty much shown himself to be AFL ready, banging down the door. Pace, endurance and is rapidly
honing his skills and spatial awareness, to an elite level. (I have a fear he will be held back too long to make room for Fisher, then Dow). Then
next season's fresh new addition in Kemp who could start at either end but is set on becoming an elite midfielder. Throw in Sam Ramsay, currently
"relegated" to the backline in "the twos" and perhaps Cottrell and we have a "pantry" bursting at the seams. Could I suggest that the cake we
are cooking will be so bloody tasty that we won't need to add any cream (trades).

Our new players in the recruitment team will want to score a target, but I can't help thinking that with the list we have and their impending
maturity the draft should be our very best friend.

Seriously, our only obvious needs are generation next, as in a project ruck and possibly a big bopper KPD to develop for when Jones and back
up Levi are finished. I have faith in Marchbank, but he is undersized as a key, and am optimistic with BSOS. Lists are going to be cut so with
a need to cull, I would be parting ways with Macreadie and reluctantly Goddard, thus the need to draft another. I will say that if Papley was
to be gettable for our first pick, he would certainly provide an immediate and then long term upgrade, as well as complementing rather than
competing with our young guns. Is it wrong that I see our midfield kids going straight past a Crouch or Wines within their first contracts, thus
stymieing our TPP schedule? I have previously trumpeted Williams as a free agent, but geez is one ugly dude