List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[DangerousD]

Im optimistic.

But even if he doesnt, Setters. SOS. Kemp.

We need speed not size. Wines is better than all those I named sure, but we have a massive hole in other areas the cap and draft assets are better used for.

I agree we need speed and not size and I agree Wines is better than all you mentioned, im Not sure where SOS as a kid has come from, 60 odd games so far, 22 games under 10 possessions, not once over 20, is slow, Setters is slow, Cripps is slow and Kemp hasn’t played a single game.

Recruiting a mid like Wines or Wines, aside from injury, you are certain of the player you’re getting, you know the output, you aren’t hoping that he all of a sudden gets faster and can find the ball.

Cost is key, as with a lot of the trades and names being mentioned.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I agree we need speed and not size and I agree Wines is better than all you mentioned, im Not sure where SOS as a kid has come from, 60 odd games so far, 22 games under 10 possessions, not once over 20, is slow, Setters is slow, Cripps is slow and Kemp hasn’t played a single game.

Recruiting a mid like Wines or Wines, aside from injury, you are certain of the player you’re getting, you know the output, you aren’t hoping that he all of a sudden gets faster and can find the ball.

Cost is key, as with a lot of the trades and names being mentioned.

Main 2 points youre missing is:
1) we have finite resources
2) the holes we have in other spots have less emerging talent

Who do we have showing actual AFL ability atm in the other areas of need?

At least in this hole we have 3 players who have played AFL level and played some great games.

We dont have any youngsters who have shown anything close to that in the other areas:
-wheres our papley?
-laird/williams?
-kelly?
-whitfield?
m

 

[Jeremias]

Newman is out injured and it’s subjective whether He is in our best side, he might have played every game, we don’t know and he might be passed by next year.

Injured currently but has been selected every time he has been available. Don't think he has missed a game for any reason other than injury.

Regardless of what some fans think, clearly the MC (spanning two senior coaches) believe him to be in our best side.

Anyway, the main point with him is that he isn't and hasn't been a failure as a pick up. Far from it.

Hardly a failure at the moment, but I don’t see a future with him and unless he cements himself as a regular best 22, I’d say it would be a failure.

That's fair. I'm not yet convinced but it's hard to not be impressed by what he has done in 2020. Jury is still out.

Lots of people don’t need pages of excuses why we picked up who we did, the fact some lasted 1 season and others two before being delisted Or others barely making the side in 3 seasons says enough. Context is subjective, I have 9 out of those 13 as being very bad.

They're not excuses though. They're reality and if we're being honest about their evaluation then surely the whole picture has to be considered.

Some were failures certainly. Others not so much when you consider the bigger picture.

Most of the list and you could add 4 or more to that might have cost stuff all picks, but all cost a list spot for 1-3 years, all took a list spot from someone else that could have contributed to the football club, all contributed to the revolving door of players coming and going from our club, lots of their attitudes to playing were questioned during their time at the club. We talk about culture a bit, bringing in so many players only to turf them straight away, did not help in that regard.

Again, context.

Some may have been able to contribute more but we were hardly an attractive destination through that period.

Someone like Phillips will be written off as a bust by a lot of people, but when you consider that he (a) got us Plowman for less than what he otherwise would have cost, and (b) enabled us to rid ourselves of Warnock and his grossly inflated contract...I call that a good result for the club.

As for culture...I don't think any of us are in a position to be talking seriously about that and whether any of these guys contributed negatively to it. How on earth would we know?

I cringe when I see people defend the recruitment of some of these players and the excuses some throw about, their recruitment has held our rebuild back, SOS“s biggest blemish for me.

Again, not making excuses. But if people are going to ignore half the story to suit their narrative then I'm going to pull them up on it in the hope that the bigger picture is considered. I think it's important.

I don't believe anyone could seriously argue that recruiting a few of these blokes has held back our rebuild in any significant manner.

my point that you have completely missed, is that we have built a good list but are in desperate need of a top liner to support Cripps, we can not wait another 2-3 years hoping one of these fringe players comes good... we need to be aggressive and get a proven player who will waltz into our midfield round 1 2021.

I didn't miss any part of your post.

I agree with you that we need to aim high now and I think the club knows that...having done exactly that over the past few years.

People will naturally look at the guns, but list management is just as much about lifting the floor that it is adding to the ceiling. There has always been a place for bringing in good solid role players on the cheap, and there always will be.

 

[katmanblue]

It all depends on if we can trust the reported figures. Charlie at the time of signing was reported at $800,000, Ricciuto has said Gov is on $800,000 (I thought it was around $650,000), Cripps was reported in the paper last week at $950,000 (both Gawn and Bradshaw have said it was miles off)

Im not sure many supporters would be interested in offering even remotely big $$$$ to SPS and Jones, but our cap situation comes about by simply banking the extra money that we haven’t been spending the last 3 years, what amount we have left though is debatable, but it has to be spent.

Jack Martin is on a reported $1.7M this year, heavily front ended. Probably drops to about $400k next year. $3M over 5years. That's a huge chunk of change freed up.

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[katmanblue]

So from what I'm reading, Kemp is going to be either an intercepting defender, big bodied midfielder with pace or a Toby Greene type forward. Sounds good.

All at the same time too. We are gonna have to play with 16 on the field.

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[katmanblue]

Kemp could do a reverse Toby

Tnuc?

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[katmanblue]

My point with the above is that, lots of people have all of these inclusions but never really mention who goes out. Ask yourself, who goes out for Charlie, then who goes out for Marchbank, who goes out for Kemp and who goes out for SOS?

We are slow and have a tall on ball brigade, we currently, if fit are playing two KPF and Gov, if SOS is fit, who does he replace? With our current side, I would hate to think we would drop a running/faster player, which would further slow us down.

Im just not sure where he fits.

SOS replaces Ed

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[katmanblue]

Lang, Fasolo, Newman, Kennedy, Lobbe, Smedts, Pickett, Palmer, Sumner, Lamb, Phillips, Jaksch, Whiley,

Lang, Newman, Kennedy and Pickett are probably the only ones that count.

The rest were just warm bodies really. Had to get rid of the crappy contracts on the books and replace with cheap ones over multiple years. These guys were just placeholders.

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[Manhattanite]

Wines will not be cheap and is in the exact age bracket you have mentioned. Crouch will cost nothing by way of picks but will attract a pretty serious salary.

The others are kids who have shown varying degrees of promise.

Which cheap easy out of contract targets have we tried and failed with?

I don’t agree with your two assumptions - I don’t think Wines will be more than a late first round or early second round pick because the Power are OK with him leaving as he seems to have issues with their coach and vice versa. * will probably pick him up as part of the Fantasia trade that will occur. But I think if we got a future second back from the Swans that would almost be enough for the Power if Wines nominates us.

As for Crouch I don’t see any club except North paying more than $600K for him. That talk of $1 million was just his agent trying to see if the Suns were desperate - and they no longer are. Not many clubs will want him so there won’t be much of a bidding war. If we did pick him up I doubt it would be for more than $650K at most and only because we couldn’t get other mids or needed our draft picks for other trades so had to pick up a free agent mid.



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[DangerousD]

Main 2 points youre missing is:
1) we have finite resources
2) the holes we have in other spots have less emerging talent

Who do we have showing actual AFL ability atm in the other areas of need?

At least in this hole we have 3 players who have played AFL level and played some great games.

We dont have any youngsters who have shown anything close to that in the other areas:
-wheres our papley?
-laird/williams?
-kelly?
-whitfield?
m

Im all for targeting half backs like Williams and forwards like Papley, I am concerned about lack of support in midfield for Cripps, that’s where the majority of the game is wn or lost.

 

[DangerousD]

Injured currently but has been selected every time he has been available. Don't think he has missed a game for any reason other than injury.

Regardless of what some fans think, clearly the MC (spanning two senior coaches) believe him to be in our best side.

Anyway, the main point with him is that he isn't and hasn't been a failure as a pick up. Far from it.

He has been a solid pick up, wish some earlier trades had his output, hopefully he gets back to where he was and holds his spot.

Again, context.

Some may have been able to contribute more but we were hardly an attractive destination through that period.

Someone like Phillips will be written off as a bust by a lot of people, but when you consider that he (a) got us Plowman for less than what he otherwise would have cost, and (b) enabled us to rid ourselves of Warnock and his grossly inflated contract...I call that a good result for the club.

As for culture...I don't think any of us are in a position to be talking seriously about that and whether any of these guys contributed negatively to it. How on earth would we know?

Phillips wasn’t one of the guys I thought were very bad, he played semi regularly and I disagree with the justification that he and others allowed us to get Plowman cheaper, I don’t think we got a bargain.

when I mentioned culture, I am referring to the the many times that I’ve read on here, the lack of care, effort displayed by some of the poor recruits over the past 5 years, the ones who know they’re not part of anything long term, it’s my opinion that bringing in lots of players and cutting lots of players, sometimes even the ones you have just recruited, would not be good for club culture.

It doesn’t make for a good work place.

Again, not making excuses. But if people are going to ignore half the story to suit their narrative then I'm going to pull them up on it in the hope that the bigger picture is considered. I think it's important.

I don’t think it’s ignoring anything, the story and context you are talking about is largely exaggerated in my opinion and a justification that makes many feel better about getting a lot of these players. We don’t have to agree on this, but just because lots of people agree does not make your context or version of the story, the truth.

I think it’s a lot more simple, SOS recruited these guys, he obviously really rated them, he picked a lot of them up with 1st round draft choices, he may have liked them as people and I think gambled by bringing them across, he gambled that more of them would pull their finger out at a new club or more would have a better injury run and make good on their talent.

 

[Arr0w]

Im all for targeting half backs like Williams and forwards like Papley, I am concerned about lack of support in midfield for Cripps, that’s where the majority of the game is wn or lost.

Williams can play through the middle

 

[Bluechip66]

I like Jack... but do his aggression and effort stand out so much just due to the fact that our other youngsters don't show much by comparison?

Not just Blues.....but the whole AFL

 

[DangerousD]

SOS replaces Ed

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SOS to start in the square with Cripps, Setters and Pit? I haven’t seen a slower midfield.

SOS is yet to have a 20 possession game and a 3rd of his games gets less than 10 touches, from that to starting midfield is doubtful

 

[DangerousD]

Lang, Newman, Kennedy and Pickett are probably the only ones that count.

The rest were just warm bodies really. Had to get rid of the crappy contracts on the books and replace with cheap ones over multiple years. These guys were just placeholders.

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Surely if your after Warm bodies, we could have done better using the VFL, WAFL or SANFL

 

[CJMB]

SOS replaces Ed

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I'm not sure he'd actually be an effective tagger on players on than a particular type. Jack matched up well against Fyfe, but he's hardly going to be able to manage the diversity of run-with roles that Ed does. Ed's tank and running ability allows him to keep working away at even more nimble opponents. I feel like jack would do well at the stoppage but then more often than not his man would just run off him all day. We're already getting killed on the spread as is.

I can see Jack being called up for that role every now and then when the direct opponent suits him but I'm not sure I see him as a week-in-week-out starting centre tagging mid.

 

[DangerousD]

Williams can play through the middle

has played very good football there, he can also play wing and has played as a defensive forward.

I’m all in on him and he gives us draft and trade flexibility.

now let’s talk turkey, what will it cost?

$$$$$$

 

[Arr0w]

has played very good football there, he can also play wing and has played as a defensive forward.

I’m all in on him and he gives us draft and trade flexibility.

now let’s talk turkey, what will it cost?

$$$$$$

Cap TTP will probably change given current conditions

But happy to pay him $700K a year to get it done

 

[HARKER]

Williams just ticks every box for us.
I think we'd be crazy to be restricting our efforts to BCrouch and not looking at Zac.

Free Agent - Zac Williams
Trade For - Tom Papley
Trade for - A back up KPD

...and more than anything....develop what we have and develop them well.

 

[HBF]

SOS to start in the square with Cripps, Setters and Pit? I haven’t seen a slower midfield.

SOS is yet to have a 20 possession game and a 3rd of his games gets less than 10 touches, from that to starting midfield is doubtful

JSOS could go in there should Cripps need a break. He certainly makes us a better team, and with all of our tall forwards he is certainly one that can play in a different position.

 

[CJMB]

Williams just ticks every box for us.
I think we'd be crazy to be restricting our efforts to BCrouch and not looking at Zac.

Free Agent - Zac Williams
Trade For - Tom Papley
Trade for - A back up KPD

...and more than anything....develop what we have and develop them well.

It's Williams then daylight then Crouch when comparing those two free agents.

 

[Big Bank]

Excellent post - some really intriguing options there.
If I recall correctly I’m fairly sure Cedric Cox has a connection to some of the indigenous players on our list. Could be worth a quiet word re crossing over.

Cox is from Halls Creek, where SPS is from.

 

[DangerousD]

Cap TTP will probably change given current conditions

But happy to pay him $700K a year to get it done

Lets ignore the possibility of a changed cap, as currently nothing has changed, the AFL could add more games next year to make up for shortcomings who knows.

In a normal market, without any change, what are you offering?

 

[Arr0w]

Lets ignore the possibility of a changed cap, as currently nothing has changed, the AFL could add more games next year to make up for shortcomings who knows.

In a normal market, without any change, what are you offering?

Start at $700 base, plus incentives

 

[katmanblue]

Im all for targeting half backs like Williams and forwards like Papley, I am concerned about lack of support in midfield for Cripps, that’s where the majority of the game is wn or lost.

I think our lack of effective wings is more of an issue. İn our losses, we are often getting out-worked and are getting outnumbered around the ball.

We need two-way runners who can kick.

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