List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[Metalcrusher]

Not sure you can say we've had the wrong or too few picks.

Between 2015 and 2019 we drafted 23 players, 11 of those were top 20 picks. I'd be very surprised if any club without priority picks would average better than 2 top 20 picks for 5 years.

Also in that period we traded in 11 former top 20 picks (6 of them were actually top 10). Incidentally 6 of those 11 have been delisted.

Of the 23 drafted we still have 17 on our list and the highest pick delisted was 47.

I'd argue that any problems we still have in list management is not the result of too few or the wrong picks. In my view we have regarded our draft picks as untouchable from a trade perspective and have been too reluctant use them to fill the gaps that have been identified. Other clubs (Brisbane and GWS to name 2) have been prepared to use even low draft picks as collateral to better balance their lists.

Someone predicted earlier that our premiership window will open in 2024 but if this is the case I'd seriously start to question the quality of our rebuild. We are not going to get the draft picks in the coming years that we have enjoyed. It is likely to be much harder for us to improve our list in the near future.

With near future retirements we really need those players we've supported and stuck by to finally come good. In my opinion too few have so far.

Having said all that I reckon we'll be in it up to our ears next year, if not this.

I would say our issue is in the development of said draft picks ....

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I would say our issue is in the development of said draft picks ....

development is always a funny one. People talk about how great sides like Geelong are at it because all of the late picks they have playing but they ignore the fact they haven’t developed apparently better/higher rated talents they have had on their list.
why I do worry about ours is because I can’t think of really anyone other then maybe Fisher and Williamson who is better then what you would have expected when they were drafted. (Since Cripps anyway)
It could be a fair mixture of drafting and development.

 

[El Topo]

Helps when young players are introduced as flankers/bench rotations rather than frontline mids. We're still reeling from the catastrophe that was 2018 to mid-2019.

 

[Arr0w]

Improvements will continue, especially with a standalone VFL side

 

[Metalcrusher]

Improvements will continue, especially with a standalone VFL side

I hope so.

 

[Arr0w]

I hope so.

Stop stressing tinny, just look at where we were in 2018, what other recent rebuilding timelines look like

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Helps when young players are introduced as flankers/bench rotations rather than frontline mids. We're still reeling from the catastrophe that was 2018 to mid-2019.

And playing them injured to teach them to endure was another crock of horse #%*+

 

[El Topo]

And playing them injured to teach them to endure was another crock of horse #%*+

sure as hell taught the fans to endure

 

[Robert Heatley]

I feel like we’ve taken a big step in this area, not only with what we’ve achieved - Saad, Williams and Fogarty all look to be ticks. Plenty of good reports about Parks, Durdin and Carroll, and don’t forget that we went hard at Graham! Would have been handy if he swapped sides. So far the list managers and recruiters look to have their act together. And from what I’ve seen of McDonald so far I don’t think he’ll be straight in and straight out!

 

[blue healer]

development is always a funny one. People talk about how great sides like Geelong are at it because all of the late picks they have playing but they ignore the fact they haven’t developed apparently better/higher rated talents they have had on their list.
why I do worry about ours is because I can’t think of really anyone other then maybe Fisher and Williamson who is better then what you would have expected when they were drafted. (Since Cripps anyway)
It could be a fair mixture of drafting and development.

Yeah, the drafting/development argument is a little like the chicken and egg one.

Geelong example isn't a bad one as even they don't get it right all the time, no one does, but they actually better identify players that fall short of expectations by trading early like Lang and Smedts, both drafted at 16, traded to us and we delist later for zip. Same can be said for some of those we traded from GWS.

Despite the criticism of our system by many we have still managed to turn Jones from an automatic delist to very good backman, Doc from a player with potential to AA, Plowman into a versatile backman, Cas into a 150 game player, Ed into a much better player than he looked like being 6 years ago just to name a few.

I think the club gets too many bad wraps on the development front. If people have a ceiling on their learning it doesn't matter how good the teacher they will not rise far above that.

I think we're not real good at identifying players ceilings.

 

[thylacine60]

Improvements will continue, especially with a standalone VFL side

don't reckon too many people are aware of the difference this is going to make - I've said it before, it's only part coincidence we've been shit for as long as we haven't had a carlton reserves team........

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Yeah, the drafting/development argument is a little like the chicken and egg one.

Geelong example isn't a bad one as even they don't get it right all the time, no one does, but they actually better identify players that fall short of expectations by trading early like Lang and Smedts, both drafted at 16, traded to us and we delist later for zip. Same can be said for some of those we traded from GWS.

Despite the criticism of our system by many we have still managed to turn Jones from an automatic delist to very good backman, Doc from a player with potential to AA, Plowman into a versatile backman, Cas into a 150 game player, Ed into a much better player than he looked like being 6 years ago just to name a few.

I think the club gets too many bad wraps on the development front. If people have a ceiling on their learning it doesn't matter how good the teacher they will not rise far above that.

I think we're not real good at identifying players ceilings.

Absolutely all those guys have developed unbelievably well and so has Cripps. All drafted by other regimes though, except for Plowman who was a pick 3 at GWS (SOS) who again you would hope as a pick 3 would turn out to be at the very least what Plowman is.
As you say chicken or the egg, maybe we are getting the most out of these kids but we have just been recruiting average-poorly. Maybe it’s the other way round. Personally I think it’s somewhere in the middle

 

[The Bighouse]

don't reckon too many people are aware of the difference this is going to make - I've said it before, it's only part coincidence we've been sh*t for as long as we haven't had a carlton reserves team........

But Box Hill...
Geelong was leading the race with this initially but Richmond have taken it to another level.

 

[BigBreakfast]

development is always a funny one. People talk about how great sides like Geelong are at it because all of the late picks they have playing but they ignore the fact they haven’t developed apparently better/higher rated talents they have had on their list.
why I do worry about ours is because I can’t think of really anyone other then maybe Fisher and Williamson who is better then what you would have expected when they were drafted. (Since Cripps anyway)
It could be a fair mixture of drafting and development.

True. Often those later picks have a chip.on their shoulders to prove themselves and just work harder than the higher picks who might have been given a bit of an arm chair ride and told they are brilliant since they were in nappies. It's funny what makes guys tick.

 

[mr_robot]

Anyone else think we'll continue to be a mediocre or bottom of the 8 side at best if we don't make some tough decisions at the selection table?

It's the same uninspiring stuff in my opinion.

Obviously Martin and Williams are shoe-ins. Jack was injured and LOB was a deer in headlights on occasion. But playing guys like an underdone Levi, a ball-butcher like Ed (who I love but the game is definitely going past him), an ageing and clearly not defensively minded Murphy or SPS, who I think needs a wake up call and a period of time dominating in the twos to become even slightly near the player we thought he'd become (Hell, i'm fairly sure he has never played a reserves game?)... this is hampering our chances of ever becoming a top tier side.

Even Richmond blooded blokes like Thomson Dow last year. And look at Sydney on the weekend.


Make the tough calls. "That contest you shirked on the weekend Murph? More of that rubbish and you'll be suiting up for your first VFL game ever."

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Anyone else think we'll continue to be a mediocre or bottom of the 8 side at best if we don't make some tough decisions at the selection table?

It's the same uninspiring stuff in my opinion.

Obviously Martin and Williams are shoe-ins. Jack was injured and LOB was a deer in headlights on occasion. But playing guys like an underdone Levi, a ball-butcher like Ed (who I love but the game is definitely going past him), an ageing and clearly not defensively minded Murphy or SPS, who I think needs a wake up call and a period of time dominating in the twos to become even slightly near the player we thought he'd become (Hell, i'm fairly sure he has never played a reserves game?)... this is hampering our chances of ever becoming a top tier side.

Even Richmond blooded blokes like Thomson Dow last year. And look at Sydney on the weekend.


Make the tough calls. "That contest you shirked on the weekend Murph? More of that rubbish and you'll be suiting up for your first VFL game ever."

I don’t think picking kids who aren’t up to it is the answer. We’ve been there and done that and it achieved nothing. Also you have to remember all the young kids we want to see also have glaring weaknesses so until they are sorted i don’t see the point. Most probably won’t end up to be half of the players the guys you want to replace currently are.

 

[Metalcrusher]

I don’t think picking kids who aren’t up to it is the answer. We’ve been there and done that and it achieved nothing. Also you have to remember all the young kids we want to see also have glaring weaknesses so until they are sorted i don’t see the point. Most probably won’t end up to be half of the players the guys you want to replace currently are.

We are lacking in KP depth (both ends), we are lacking in Ruck depth. If we are still playing SPS in a HBF role we are lacing depth there too.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Anyone else think we'll continue to be a mediocre or bottom of the 8 side at best if we don't make some tough decisions at the selection table?

It's the same uninspiring stuff in my opinion.

Obviously Martin and Williams are shoe-ins. Jack was injured and LOB was a deer in headlights on occasion. But playing guys like an underdone Levi, a ball-butcher like Ed (who I love but the game is definitely going past him), an ageing and clearly not defensively minded Murphy or SPS, who I think needs a wake up call and a period of time dominating in the twos to become even slightly near the player we thought he'd become (Hell, i'm fairly sure he has never played a reserves game?)... this is hampering our chances of ever becoming a top tier side.

Even Richmond blooded blokes like Thomson Dow last year. And look at Sydney on the weekend.


Make the tough calls. "That contest you shirked on the weekend Murph? More of that rubbish and you'll be suiting up for your first VFL game ever."

No.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Make the tough calls. "That contest you shirked on the weekend Murph? More of that rubbish and you'll be suiting up for your first VFL game ever."

That one v one going for the ball with edwards on the wing in the last - both blokes same age and edwards dancing around him like a witches hat shows where Murph is at present unfortunately

 

[mr_robot]

That one v one going for the ball with edwards on the wing in the last - both blokes same age and edwards dancing around him like a witches hat shows where Murph is at present unfortunately

Yep and it sets a terrible precedent for the guys under him. He's meant to be a leader but acts like that infers otherwise. I'm probably too critical of Murph but some of his acts over the years simply wouldn't be tolerated by other teams.

 

[F_therest]

Improvements will continue, especially with a standalone VFL side

Anyone know why we didn't have a standalone VFL side sooner? The benefits seem obvious. Play the exact same gameplan/structure with players in the same role in the VFL side so they can step into the AFL side and do the same thing. More control over the team.

 

[Arr0w]

Anyone know why we didn't have a standalone VFL side sooner? The benefits seem obvious. Play the exact same gameplan/structure with players in the same role in the VFL side so they can step into the AFL side and do the same thing. More control over the team.

If it was me, the timeline would have been the same.

Strip it back, build a list, clear debt, now build continuity, consistency, development

 

[Juddernaut08]

Yeah, the drafting/development argument is a little like the chicken and egg one.

Geelong example isn't a bad one as even they don't get it right all the time, no one does, but they actually better identify players that fall short of expectations by trading early like Lang and Smedts, both drafted at 16, traded to us and we delist later for zip. Same can be said for some of those we traded from GWS.

Despite the criticism of our system by many we have still managed to turn Jones from an automatic delist to very good backman, Doc from a player with potential to AA, Plowman into a versatile backman, Cas into a 150 game player, Ed into a much better player than he looked like being 6 years ago just to name a few.

I think the club gets too many bad wraps on the development front. If people have a ceiling on their learning it doesn't matter how good the teacher they will not rise far above that.

I think we're not real good at identifying players ceilings.

I think our issue with development has not being the standalone side thing like Arrow and others have said.

If players already know the system, they dont have as big a jump when they join the big time from vfl.

This is probably what has held back the younger crew.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

The question for me after 4 goal losses to the Tigers and Pies is ... who is Best 22 that we are missing?
Who’s pushing Murphy out (after we carry him to 300)? Who’s pushing Ed out? ...

Charlie (long way off, not sure what he comes back like)
Marchbank (often injured)
McGovern (often injured)
Betts (well past his best)
JSOS (attitude and class lifts him over a few)
TDK (Will become IMO, probably lacks endurance to dominate for long enough)
Cuningham (has tools we need, playing twos for a reason)
Newman (often injured)
L’Ob (I put him down to poor development, our lack of overlap run gives him a real opportunity)
Kennedy (depth)
MacDonald (injuries to McKay, TDK and Casboult makes him the perfect sub)


Untried
Kemp
Durdin
Carroll
Parks
Ramsay


Largely untried
Stocker
Philp
Owies
Cottrell
Honey

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I never thought I would say this but perhaps Kane Cornes

Kane Cornes

Age

42

Ht

183cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.5

5star

HB

11.0

5star

M

5.2

5star

T

3.3

5star

CL

2.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

is correct and Crippa is a $750k max player.. On current form to pay him any more would be irresponsible.

it seems like the new game style brought about by the rules and the decreased stoppages has completely negated his influence on the game, and perhaps he doesn’t have the engine to move across the ground to become dangerous, 12 months ago he was in the conversation as the best player in the comp, now it’s hard to see that he would be top 50.