List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[GordonBlue]

I don't know. I always like Gibbons. He is crafty and creative, a natural footballer who makes things happen. I'd have him above Cottrell, Owies, Boyd and McDonald.

I won't have him above any of those for needs. If we need the wings covered, Cottrell add depth. Owies could force himself into the 22 and make the small hard to match up on forward his own. Boyd I don't know much about, however they must have seen something in him that they picked him up in the first place, again for a specific needs depth and McDonald's only game in the preseason, he was awesome. I don't want to lose him.

Gibbons simply does not specialise in anything and doesn't do the all round role as good as others. He could play a little bit in midfield, without ever really controlling that position. He could play forward and pop up with a few goals, but he was not the most natural forward. He isn't a terrible player, just that the quality and as general the team strength we're building does not require that type of player.

He could definitely benefit a team like GC, Hawthorn or Collingwood imo

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

Pretty accurate, apart from Owies IMHO (statistically and the eye test)

So you agree it was a contract decision, rather than retaining the better player? FMD

I stated recently, that Gibbo was in trouble due to contract status, not a softening of opinion

Realist

Now, can we move on?

I thought my "going jogging" comment was a sign that I was going to move on…

The one main reason I am keeping faith with Owies for 1 more year is the glimpses I’ve seen of him having goal sneak attributes, he just pops up in dangerous places. I see Gibbons as more a high half forward

To add to that, he was a late comer to the sport so I think it’s possible he could have a gear left to reach. Not likely but possible. Gibbons was absolutely maxing out what he had to offer IMO, and I’m pleased for him he got the chance to live his dream

I never brought up comparing him to others, that was you. All I did was ask had you come to the conclusion that he wouldn’t make it (I even took back those exact words)

Whenever he was to come out of contract was going to be it for him, which has been proven correct. The others you mentioned will likely join him next year

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Yep.
https://www.afl.com.au/news/659265/afl-confirms-2022-list-sizes-tweaks-rule-for-rookies

Cheers Bletch
The AFL once again make no sense with this rule at all…
Only between the ND & rookie draft can a contracted senior listed player be put onto the rookie list…
Dumb ass’s…

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Can't wait to see Carrol next year as I think this kid has potential...

Sent from my moto g(6) using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yep if there is a bolter in Rd1, it’ll be him

 

[Blueballs38]

Doc’s the sort of guy who would retire rather than clog our list. Selfless to the max.

The football gods can be cruel and they have used him as their douse

 

[TENACIOUS]

Surely the AFL could allow us to put Docherty on a LTI or Medical list and open an additional list spot..
There is no way Docherty plays next year, he should just be focusing on the important things in life like getting better..

 

[Arr0w]

Surely the AFL could allow us to put Docherty on a LTI or Medical list and open an additional list spot..
There is no way Docherty plays next year, he should just be focusing on the important things in life like getting better..

We don't need the AFL's approval to put him on the LTI list

 

[gunslingr]

Yes he has lightning instincts and reflexes, but it's his decision making that lets him down at the end of the chain.
He'll hunt and win the ball, evade a tackle or two, then elect to give it to someone under pressure rather than take the shot, or as you say, take a snap from further out than he needs to.

OK now you're talking about one of my biggest Carlton head scratchers from at least the last 5 years - why do so many players have such an aversion to taking a shot, particularly when it's a bit of a chaos ball around 30 metres out??

 

[PezzDogg95]

There is an AFL rule that states you can only retain 3 Category A rookies from the previous season on the rookie list.

Sounds like BS to me. Happy to be proved wrong. Over to you.

I can't remember where I first became aware of it, but while not the most reliable source, this wikipedia article states it.

Rookie list - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

First paragraph under 'List Management subheading provided below:

Each club is allowed to maintain a list of up to six eligible Category A rookies and three Category B rookies. Up to three rookies can be retained, with the player's permission for a second or third season,[2] with the others having to be either delisted or elevated to the primary list at the time of the National Draft. Only half of the salary paid by a club to players on the rookie list counts towards the league's salary cap.

This has been my long running understanding, and Carlton have not retained more than 3 Cat A rookies year-on-year for the last decade+ while I was under this impression.

It may have changed in recent years like the rookie list revamp in 2018, but i am not aware of that nor have I challenged it until now, as Carlton have always retained 3 or less rookies, so I never had any reason to.

 

[Blues_1864]

I can't remember where I first became aware of it, but while not the most reliable source, this wikipedia article states it.

Rookie list - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

First paragraph under 'List Management subheading provided below:


This has been my long running understanding, and Carlton have not retained more than 3 Cat A rookies year-on-year for the last decade+ while I was under this impression.

It may have changed in recent years like the rookie list revamp in 2018, but i am not aware of that nor have I challenged it until now, as Carlton have always retained 3 or less rookies, so I never had any reason to.

Wikipedia entry seems to be out of date. The specific clause in the AFL Rules 2021 basically says any player can be a Rookie for up to 3 years by agreement with the Club:

10.10 Retention of Rookie List Players
(a) A Club may retain a Player on its Rookie List for a second season provided it nominates such Player or Players using Form 32, prior to advising the AFL of its Primary List under Rule 6.1(a) and such Player consents to being nominated on the Rookie List for a second season.
(b) A Club may retain a Player on its Rookie List for a third season provided it nominates such Player or Players using Form 32 prior to advising the AFL of its Primary List under Rule 6.1(a) and such Player consents to being nominated on the Rookie List for a third season.

The rest of the document is here:

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2021/02/17/1c2e72af-a474-4a06-95af-7d4f41ae3aff/AFL-Rules-effective-16-February-2021.pdf

 

[PezzDogg95]

Wikipedia entry seems to be out of date. The specific clause in the AFL Rules 2021 basically says any player can be a Rookie for up to 3 years by agreement with the Club:



The rest of the document is here:

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2021/02/17/1c2e72af-a474-4a06-95af-7d4f41ae3aff/AFL-Rules-effective-16-February-2021.pdf

I stand corrected

 

[carltonchelsea]

There is an AFL rule that states you can only retain 3 Category A rookies from the previous season on the rookie list.

Sounds like BS to me. Happy to be proved wrong. Over to you.

*proven

 

[F_therest]

That's true and probably one of the more frustrating things about Fisher this year - he had too many attempts from around 50 when he needed to be closer. Possibly has the quickest hands/reaction time in the team and really needed to be crumbing rather than approaching the 50, lurching left, lurching left some more to add 5 -10 metres to his distance, and then shanking it (left) cos at that point he's just trying to get ball to boot

One big weakness of our team that really annoys me is we seem to have a lot of forwards who can't kick goals from 50m out.

None of Fisher, Fogarty, Owies and last year Betts can kick goals from a set shot if the man on the mark is 40m out. It really does cost us when shots from that range aren't legitimate goal-scoring opportunities, whereas you see some other small forwards like Papley and Charlie Cameron kick goals from outside 50m regularly.

 

[jezzatigerbrent]

Surely the AFL could allow us to put Docherty on a LTI or Medical list and open an additional list spot..
There is no way Docherty plays next year, he should just be focusing on the important things in life like getting better..

I don't know why but I think there is a precedent where you can apply for a special medical exemption... And be outside the main list but still tied to Carlton... And on a contract payment system

 

[PezzDogg95]

Surely the AFL could allow us to put Docherty on a LTI or Medical list and open an additional list spot..
There is no way Docherty plays next year, he should just be focusing on the important things in life like getting better..

I think its as simple as placing him on the Inactive List and signing an additional rookie through the supplemental selection period in December. Doc will still be contracted to the club and be paid his base salary. The club will gain an additional rookie as a list replacement.

I too don't expect him to play at all in 2022 due to the impacts of chemo, I look to Ramanauskas of Essendon who missed 2006 due to undergoing chemo as an example. If, however, Doc is deemed healthy and match fit enough to play AFL footy in the latter stages of the year, he can come off the inactive list as long as we have another LTI to replace him, which is likely to be possible late in the season.

I hope he recovers well, for his and his loved ones' sake. It was pleasing to see that he is feeling great at the moment and that the prognosis is promising.

I'm sure we'll see Doc at the club training during 2022, and I look forward to seeing him back out there in competition in 2023.

It's a great initiative the boys are putting together tomorrow to support Doc as well! Everyone associated with the club is behind him.

 

[Stamos]

First time I've heard that one. Where did you hear that?

Has always been the rule, except for last year when they cut lists and made changes to the requirements due to covid.

 

[Stamos]

Is this something that has changed to previous years?

It was a one-off for last year. You used to have to delist and re-draft.

Interestingly, you can now make that change after the ND, but prior to the rookie draft, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but would mean you could get to 38 on the senior list, then move 1 or 2 contracted players to the Rookie List for salary cap purposes.

 

[BlueTongue]

It was a one-off for last year. You used to have to delist and re-draft.

Interestingly, you can now make that change after the ND, but prior to the rookie draft, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but would mean you could get to 38 on the senior list, then move 1 or 2 contracted players to the Rookie List for salary cap purposes.

That sucks for a rookie listed senior like Kennedy. I think it should be before the ND, so the club is forced to make a decision on if the player is retained or elevated, so they still have a chance to make the ND if not. Not in the true spirit of what the rookie list is for and like a lot of the rules the AFL make, not specific enough and open to exploitation.

 

[Stamos]

That sucks for a rookie listed senior like Kennedy. I think it should be before the ND, so the club is forced to make a decision on if the player is retained or elevated, so they still have a chance to make the ND if not. Not in the true spirit of what the rookie list is for and like a lot of the rules the AFL make, not specific enough and open to exploitation.

Well, the rookie list is a bit of joke now anyway. It is completely removed from how it was intended, and now essentially serves as a way to save a little bit of salary cap space, and to have a lesser commitment to the 4-6 players on the list.

As for who the new rule sucks for, it's not the Kennedy type of player (who was advantaged by the 1 off change last year), it would be more the LOB type, a player who could possibly get squeezed off the senior list due to list space, but retained on the rookie list.

However, I'm not sure that the new rule will make a big practical change, perhaps just a little less certainty prior to the draft?

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

First time I've heard that one. Where did you hear that?

Not sure he's right.

See 6.2(d) and 10.11(a)....

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2020/03/21/6e5e3856-5aa6-4c8e-8cde-e65b98549b94/Amended-AFL-Rules-effective-19-March-2020-clean-FINAL-.pdf

 

[Ash24]

I don't know. I always like Gibbons. He is crafty and creative, a natural footballer who makes things happen. I'd have him above Cottrell, Owies, Boyd and McDonald.

You want me to rank the bottom of our list? Ok then…

I’d have him above Boyd and Cottrell, on par with Owies, below McDonald due to our lack of KPP (Young just replaced Cas and we were short last season, I’d keep OMac for this reason)

How’d I go? (Knowing you have Gibbons above Owies)

I'm quite surprised by how many of us here don't rate Owies. I understand he is 24 years old, but I thought he was in our top 2 most improved players this year and is definitely in our best 22 alongside Honey in the forward pockets.

I think we lack genuine pressure small forwards who are quick and crafty, especially after Eddie's retirement. Owies is a great replacement - kicking 14 goals in his first 9 games and averaging 3 tackles across the entire season. It would be a huge mistake if we got rid of him.

Same sort of goes for OMac, and I think SLC you touched on it well. He may not be in our best 30 players, but we need him unless we're planning on picking up new KPPs in the draft. He is so versatile and can play down back, up forward and pinch hit in the ruck too.

 

[AlecDuncan]

OMac is now behind Young as well as Marchbank. He'll be lucky to stay.

Agree with Owies though. Goal accuracy fell away after a bright start, but he still worked his backside off.

 

[Foucault1989]

I'm quite surprised by how many of us here don't rate Owies. I understand he is 24 years old, but I thought he was in our top 2 most improved players this year and is definitely in our best 22 alongside Honey in the forward pockets.

I think we lack genuine pressure small forwards who are quick and crafty, especially after Eddie's retirement. Owies is a great replacement - kicking 14 goals in his first 9 games and averaging 3 tackles across the entire season. It would be a huge mistake if we got rid of him.

Same sort of goes for OMac, and I think SLC you touched on it well. He may not be in our best 30 players, but we need him unless we're planning on picking up new KPPs in the draft. He is so versatile and can play down back, up forward and pinch hit in the ruck too.

Personally I don't think owies is quick or crafty. Most of his goals were from lead up marks not crumbing.

Handy player but I prefer Gibbons.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

OMac is now behind Young as well as Marchbank. He'll be lucky to stay.

Agree with Owies though. Goal accuracy fell away after a bright start, but he still worked his backside off.

Agreed, has the right work ethic does Owies. I remember one run down tackle in our defensive goal square!

 

[Foucault1989]

One big weakness of our team that really annoys me is we seem to have a lot of forwards who can't kick goals from 50m out.

None of Fisher, Fogarty, Owies and last year Betts can kick goals from a set shot if the man on the mark is 40m out. It really does cost us when shots from that range aren't legitimate goal-scoring opportunities, whereas you see some other small forwards like Papley and Charlie Cameron kick goals from outside 50m regularly.

Very true