Training 2021 Training - pics, reports etc

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passmark said:
I don’t follow every utterance from the club but they have appear to have been talking about tall defender coverage a lot.

we got parks but he’s not KPD shape. I would have thought we’re well served of KPD types atm but maybe they have some risk assessment that shows is deficient.
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Spot on.

Clearly the club sees something that I don't, but why pick up a mid-sized defender in Parks when our needs are a proper KPD?

That now just denies us of a list spot to use for the MSD. My only 'hope', is that Charlie's injury isn't progressing and is put on the LTI list. Although I would much prefer a fully fit C. Curnow than a key defender any day of the week.
 
The Return of the Paf said:
There's depth then there's Goddard, which one is McDonald?
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Crap like this makes my blood boil. Part of the team, of the club and contributed heaps to the group. Injuries played a major part in his limited agility and parting ways was probably appropriate with the list cuts. Just cannot handle this level of disrespect. The only Blues players you might hear me disparage are those who fail through lack of commitment.
 
Coona Blues said:
Crap like this makes my blood boil. Part of the team, of the club and contributed heaps to the group. Injuries played a major part in his limited agility and parting ways was probably appropriate with the list cuts. Just cannot handle this level of disrespect. The only Blues players you might hear me disparage are those who fail through lack of commitment.
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And I can't handle this level of disrespect for differences of opinion and your reactionary outrage in regards to people's perceived motives for commenting. It was a comment in regards to list management tactics, I have no views on Goddard one way or the other, other than fact that he had a job at the club and now we no longer need him, and I wonder whether McDonald is a step above. Simmer down; and who are you to judge what is a lack of commitment or whether something else is at play? You are just guessing to suit your selective attitude. I safe my ire for the list managers, when they get it wrong.
 
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Coona Blues said:
Crap like this makes my blood boil. Part of the team, of the club and contributed heaps to the group. Injuries played a major part in his limited agility and parting ways was probably appropriate with the list cuts. Just cannot handle this level of disrespect. The only Blues players you might hear me disparage are those who fail through lack of commitment.
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Exactly and there have been some I was happy to see dropped off the list in recent years - Goddard was not one of them and neither was Polson.
Both those guys gave their all and even when not too many were watching in the reserves.

In the end though and no matter which player it is, they didn't get to our club of their own accord, but some can get a little 'distracted' along the way.
 
ferrisb said:
They scrapped that idea and are going with one mid-season draft.

I would really like to keep a pick open for that. There has to be a bunch of 18/19yo kids that bloom next year or simply have the opportunity to show their wares after an interrupted 2020...
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Good-o. The split rounds would have a pretty big impact on lower leagues (they’re not fans of the mid-season draft pillaging).
Only pitfall is that hopefully we’re high up the ladder & the better players may be gone.
Inactive/LTI will unfort likely be avail for someone’s spot (or a sneaky retirement).
 
Beast__Mode said:
If Callum Moore is the answer, we’re asking the wrong question.
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Out of the three training with us, which would you least want on our list?
 
Our last list spot is not for someone who is going to be best 22, a 100 gamer or a premiership player, it's going to go to someone who adds balance to our list, is a good reserves player and if need be can come in as cover if injuries hit hard. A McDonald or Moore will do that, an 18 year old wont. They come in, play one season and then our list moves forward again as we find someone more long term. Much in the same way guys like Mullett, Shaw and O'Shea were and people just couldn't understand that at the time.

Happy to draft one of these guys and for them to play some good reserves footy and maybe one or two AFL games and support the list for a season. You don't use every pick on players who have some level of potential to become long termers.

I still thing Macreadie should have been persisted with or at least given a spot in our VFL team. Perhaps his body was a write-off. Hopefully he gets a state league spot. IMO was just coming into an age bracket where he should start to be competing at AFL level, had plenty of talent, not many talls play AFL and go ok in their first season. I wonder where he is playing this season?

Our young guys look good but it's going to be hard to break into a fit Carton side this season. Dow, Stocker etc might be playing mostly in the reserves this season. They will be looking to push Murphy out and Curnow out down the track. They just need to play well and consistently and give the efforts the coach wants of them. If our youngsters are to edge them out they need to match or better them with physicality, run, pressure and be able to win 25 or more possessions regularly at AFL level and there have been no fringe youngsters who have looked like doing that yet at this level. Whatever deficiencies these older guys have, it's irrelevant until we have younger guys who can match them and they haven't shown that yet.

There is going to be a lot to prove from our young group this season.
 
Again...if that's the case then why waste Maher's time with an ITT. McDonald I can see an argument for. Moore has consistently proven he's not AFL standard. If you can find a player with an average draft hand that's a good competitive advantage. If there are two spots up for grabs even better. Don't know why we'd waste our time with Moore again. Sign him up as a vfl player
 
Ninja Worrier said:
Again...if that's the case then why waste Maher's time with an ITT. McDonald I can see an argument for. Moore has consistently proven he's not AFL standard. If you can find a player with an average draft hand that's a good competitive advantage. If there are two spots up for grabs even better. Don't know why we'd waste our time with Moore again. Sign him up as a vfl player
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100%

Not up to AFL. Just sign him for the VFL squad and look else where
 
Ninja Worrier said:
Again...if that's the case then why waste Maher's time with an ITT. McDonald I can see an argument for. Moore has consistently proven he's not AFL standard. If you can find a player with an average draft hand that's a good competitive advantage. If there are two spots up for grabs even better. Don't know why we'd waste our time with Moore again. Sign him up as a vfl player
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Happy enough with the train ons, although a bit perplexed with Moore. Must be a good bloke and bring plenty to the dynamic on the training track. Perhaps one who dominates and leads at the lower level, thriving on being the go to guy, but perhaps struggles with his spot as no. 22 in the top team. We are all wired differently.

McDonald on face value a tad underwhelming as all but insurance. From memory 82 games at top level defending behind a group of downhill skiiers perhaps worse than our own in recent times. He may thrive in a better structured side. They went down the path of importing Lever and May, sending a message to
the bloke that he was not appreciated. Motivation would have been difficult. May have more upside than many of us realise.

Maher is a free hit. Touted as a possible late first rounder by some, he missed out on the draft. We will have 3 months or so to assess him and may unearth a
steal. Might come down to needs versus "no cost" quality addition. We may be stocked up on young mids, but if they all come good we will have a GWS type scenario of topping up on decent picks for those potentially squeezed out while maintaining the best of them.
 
gbatman said:
Our last list spot is not for someone who is going to be best 22, a 100 gamer or a premiership player, it's going to go to someone who adds balance to our list, is a good reserves player and if need be can come in as cover if injuries hit hard. A McDonald or Moore will do that, an 18 year old wont. They come in, play one season and then our list moves forward again as we find someone more long term. Much in the same way guys like Mullett, Shaw and O'Shea were and people just couldn't understand that at the time.

Happy to draft one of these guys and for them to play some good reserves footy and maybe one or two AFL games and support the list for a season. You don't use every pick on players who have some level of potential to become long termers.

I still thing Macreadie should have been persisted with or at least given a spot in our VFL team. Perhaps his body was a write-off. Hopefully he gets a state league spot. IMO was just coming into an age bracket where he should start to be competing at AFL level, had plenty of talent, not many talls play AFL and go ok in their first season. I wonder where he is playing this season?

Our young guys look good but it's going to be hard to break into a fit Carton side this season. Dow, Stocker etc might be playing mostly in the reserves this season. They will be looking to push Murphy out and Curnow out down the track. They just need to play well and consistently and give the efforts the coach wants of them. If our youngsters are to edge them out they need to match or better them with physicality, run, pressure and be able to win 25 or more possessions regularly at AFL level and there have been no fringe youngsters who have looked like doing that yet at this level. Whatever deficiencies these older guys have, it's irrelevant until we have younger guys who can match them and they haven't shown that yet.

There is going to be a lot to prove from our young group this season.
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Brilliant!
 
katmanblue said:
Out of the three training with us, which would you least want on our list?
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me? Moore. Looking at he and McDonald as coverage options - I’m more comfortable in our ability to manufacture a forward set up without resorting to Moore than the same equation down back.

For mine it would be

1. McDonald
2. Maher
3. Mid season draft
 
Beast__Mode said:
me? Moore. Looking at he and McDonald as coverage options - I’m more comfortable in our ability to manufacture a forward set up without resorting to Moore than the same equation down back.

For mine it would be

1. McDonald
2. Maher
3. Mid season draft
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Would be shocked if its not Mcdonald, desperately need that KPD depth.

Moore is horrible, VFL at best, please no.

Maher would be nice I guess, but surely we have enough midfielders by now.

Desperately need Paddy, Obrien to come good, would be a shame until end of time if they faulted.

100% bullish on Dow, Diesel gives the campaigner the thumbs up, good enough for me.

Fingers crossed, break-out season.
 

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Moore did some good things as a midfielder in the scratch matches so maybe we are tempted to have a more serious look at that even though it's a Longshot. As a tall he will give cover which with what is available is all we can hope for and what we need.
 
gbatman said:
Moore did some good things as a midfielder in the scratch matches so maybe we are tempted to have a more serious look at that even though it's a Longshot. As a tall he will give cover which with what is available is all we can hope for and what we need.
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I think we are more than well-stocked for midfielders and that Moore would be behind the majority of our youngsters to get a game.
 
gbatman said:
Our last list spot is not for someone who is going to be best 22, a 100 gamer or a premiership player, it's going to go to someone who adds balance to our list, is a good reserves player and if need be can come in as cover if injuries hit hard. A McDonald or Moore will do that, an 18 year old wont. They come in, play one season and then our list moves forward again as we find someone more long term. Much in the same way guys like Mullett, Shaw and O'Shea were and people just couldn't understand that at the time.
Click to expand...

One could make an argument that our list was too top heavy to begin with. By cutting the excess KPP's and replacing them with smaller running players, our list is now more balanced.

Clearly Macreadie, Goddard, BSOS and O'Dwyer were not at the level because no one has entertained picking them up. Knowing that, our depth is arguably no different to what it was last year before the delistings.

We do, however, need a long term developing KPD to replace Jones in the next 3-4 years. Neither McDonald or Moore are that option though.

McDonald is a liability in defense and Moore averaged just 3 disposals per game and didn't hit the scoreboard. Keep in mind he also gave away 3 free kicks. It was like playing with 17 players on the ground. Quite simply, it's not an option. An 18 year old draftee would have more impact than both those two players, so selecting them based on age thinking they'll have a greater impact is a fallacy.

With list spots reducing, every spot on the list counts. If you can't see a player potentially forming part of your next premiership side, he shouldn't be on the list. Everyone on the list needs to be able to step up and play a role if required. They don't have to do anything special, just play a role for the team. If they're unable to offer anything of value, it's time to look elsewhere.
 
Eiffel 65 said:
One could make an argument that our list was too top heavy to begin with. By cutting the excess KPP's and replacing them with smaller running players, our list is now more balanced.

Clearly Macreadie, Goddard, BSOS and O'Dwyer were not at the level because no one has entertained picking them up. Knowing that, our depth is arguably no different to what it was last year before the delistings.

We do, however, need a long term developing KPD to replace Jones in the next 3-4 years. Neither McDonald or Moore are that option though.

McDonald is a liability in defense and Moore averaged just 3 disposals per game and didn't hit the scoreboard. Keep in mind he also gave away 3 free kicks. It was like playing with 17 players on the ground. Quite simply, it's not an option. An 18 year old draftee would have more impact than both those two players, so selecting them based on age thinking they'll have a greater impact is a fallacy.

With list spots reducing, every spot on the list counts. If you can't see a player potentially forming part of your next premiership side, he shouldn't be on the list. Everyone on the list needs to be able to step up and play a role if required. They don't have to do anything special, just play a role for the team. If they're unable to offer anything of value, it's time to look elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I like the balance of our list. You need a lot of mids because there are a lot in the team, we have a couple of older ones and they won't all make it.

It makes it hard to retain and pick up players like those due to list sizes. I think Macreadie would be still on a list somewhere if it wasn't for that. The rest didn't show enough however they should be looking to get back into the reserves system. It stuffed it for project players and injury prone players.

We need to find a jones replacement but there is no panic there IMO. We have time and one player can be traded in. If our list rebuild has been successful then we will have currency to do that. Someone who is not a raw 18 year old will pop up. Would not be against getting an older guy in a few years who is still a top player but has a few years left.

McDonald and Moore aren't great but in 2021 will give us a hell of a lot more than an 18 year old will, especially an 18 year old taken with a late pick who isn't very good or mature and that is all they have to do. No I'm not having an 18 year old taken late in the draft come in on the back of a few injuries to play on Jeremy Cameron or Jack Riewoldt in 2021, not ever will that work out better than McDonald or Moore. We can address the centre half back hole at the end of next year. You pick a Moore or a McDonald to play one season, do their job for one season, hope you don't need them and use a more premium pick on a teenager or make a trade for a good young tall defender at the end of next season and bring in a tall who has a bit of quality. You've got that very wrong I'm afraid, you do not only fill your list with players who have the potential to make it.

It's likely that all way have to do is provide Kemp some time to develop if he is going to become a CHB so easy done if we already have a player developing. You can't just have developing teenagers, you also need players who can come in and compete physically and do a reasonable job. You need that balance or you quickly get found out and the floggings start. If you look at the list history of teams that have become very successful like Richmond you will see plenty of mature recruits of similar age and quality to Moore and McDonald selected to cover the teams depth and prevent playing kids who aren't any good or ready to play at that level.

No issues with taking a mature player to play one season to cover a hole. Would rather recruit an 18 year old with a better pick than take a chance on one who most likely can't play or trade for a more sure thing. It's just smarter. Teenagers who can't play are the worst thing a club can have on their list. They offer nothing, far better to have mature players who can half play. Better to wait until we have the picks and spots to bring in a player who can or will be able to contribute.
 
Eiffel 65 said:
One could make an argument that our list was too top heavy to begin with. By cutting the excess KPP's and replacing them with smaller running players, our list is now more balanced.

Clearly Macreadie, Goddard, BSOS and O'Dwyer were not at the level because no one has entertained picking them up. Knowing that, our depth is arguably no different to what it was last year before the delistings.

We do, however, need a long term developing KPD to replace Jones in the next 3-4 years. Neither McDonald or Moore are that option though.

McDonald is a liability in defense and Moore averaged just 3 disposals per game and didn't hit the scoreboard. Keep in mind he also gave away 3 free kicks. It was like playing with 17 players on the ground. Quite simply, it's not an option. An 18 year old draftee would have more impact than both those two players, so selecting them based on age thinking they'll have a greater impact is a fallacy.

With list spots reducing, every spot on the list counts. If you can't see a player potentially forming part of your next premiership side, he shouldn't be on the list. Everyone on the list needs to be able to step up and play a role if required. They don't have to do anything special, just play a role for the team. If they're unable to offer anything of value, it's time to look elsewhere.
Click to expand...

It was too heavy (tall) but now we've gone to the other extreme, as we now have only two genuine KPD's (Jones & Weitering)

For me a least, the ideal balance is to have two squads with all the required types involved but as things stand, our VFL squad will not have a genuine KPD involved unless we take on McDonald, or miraculously transform Moore into one, over the course of the next few weeks.

The exception would be with rucks, as it may depend on how many you want to play at the one time.
 
Ninja Worrier said:
Again...if that's the case then why waste Maher's time with an ITT. McDonald I can see an argument for. Moore has consistently proven he's not AFL standard. If you can find a player with an average draft hand that's a good competitive advantage. If there are two spots up for grabs even better. Don't know why we'd waste our time with Moore again. Sign him up as a vfl player
Click to expand...
Not sure doing a pre-season with an AFL club is a waste of Maher's time regardless of if he gets picked or not. Should put him in good stead for whatever comp he goes back to play in if we don't sign him up.
 
Eiffel 65 said:
One could make an argument that our list was too top heavy to begin with. By cutting the excess KPP's and replacing them with smaller running players, our list is now more balanced.

Clearly Macreadie, Goddard, BSOS and O'Dwyer were not at the level because no one has entertained picking them up. Knowing that, our depth is arguably no different to what it was last year before the delistings.

We do, however, need a long term developing KPD to replace Jones in the next 3-4 years. Neither McDonald or Moore are that option though.

McDonald is a liability in defense and Moore averaged just 3 disposals per game and didn't hit the scoreboard. Keep in mind he also gave away 3 free kicks. It was like playing with 17 players on the ground. Quite simply, it's not an option. An 18 year old draftee would have more impact than both those two players, so selecting them based on age thinking they'll have a greater impact is a fallacy.

With list spots reducing, every spot on the list counts. If you can't see a player potentially forming part of your next premiership side, he shouldn't be on the list. Everyone on the list needs to be able to step up and play a role if required. They don't have to do anything special, just play a role for the team. If they're unable to offer anything of value, it's time to look elsewhere.
Click to expand...
If we don't pick McDonald and heaven forbid we lost 2 of Weitering, Jones & Marchbank who are our two tall defenders in the 22 that week?
 
jd2010 said:
Not sure doing a pre-season with an AFL club is a waste of Maher's time regardless of if he gets picked or not. Should put him in good stead for whatever comp he goes back to play in if we don't sign him up.
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Waste of time was maybe a poor choice of words. But for his sake you would hope there is at least some intention he could find his way to our list if he suitability impresses
 
Ninja Worrier said:
Waste of time was maybe a poor choice of words. But for his sake you would hope there is at least some intention he could find his way to our list if he suitability impresses
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Depends a lot on what his other options were. Better to train with us and not get a spot than do a VFL pre season.
 
gbatman said:
I like the balance of our list. You need a lot of mids because there are a lot in the team, we have a couple of older ones and they won't all make it.

It makes it hard to retain and pick up players like those due to list sizes. I think Macreadie would be still on a list somewhere if it wasn't for that. The rest didn't show enough however they should be looking to get back into the reserves system. It stuffed it for project players and injury prone players.

We need to find a jones replacement but there is no panic there IMO. We have time and one player can be traded in. If our list rebuild has been successful then we will have currency to do that. Someone who is not a raw 18 year old will pop up. Would not be against getting an older guy in a few years who is still a top player but has a few years left.

McDonald and Moore aren't great but in 2021 will give us a hell of a lot more than an 18 year old will, especially an 18 year old taken with a late pick who isn't very good or mature and that is all they have to do. No I'm not having an 18 year old taken late in the draft come in on the back of a few injuries to play on Jeremy Cameron or Jack Riewoldt in 2021, not ever will that work out better than McDonald or Moore. We can address the centre half back hole at the end of next year. You pick a Moore or a McDonald to play one season, do their job for one season, hope you don't need them and use a more premium pick on a teenager or make a trade for a good young tall defender at the end of next season and bring in a tall who has a bit of quality. You've got that very wrong I'm afraid, you do not only fill your list with players who have the potential to make it.

It's likely that all way have to do is provide Kemp some time to develop if he is going to become a CHB so easy done if we already have a player developing. You can't just have developing teenagers, you also need players who can come in and compete physically and do a reasonable job. You need that balance or you quickly get found out and the floggings start. If you look at the list history of teams that have become very successful like Richmond you will see plenty of mature recruits of similar age and quality to Moore and McDonald selected to cover the teams depth and prevent playing kids who aren't any good or ready to play at that level.

No issues with taking a mature player to play one season to cover a hole. Would rather recruit an 18 year old with a better pick than take a chance on one who most likely can't play or trade for a more sure thing. It's just smarter. Teenagers who can't play are the worst thing a club can have on their list. They offer nothing, far better to have mature players who can half play. Better to wait until we have the picks and spots to bring in a player who can or will be able to contribute.
Click to expand...

Agree with a lot of this.

I will say, though, that with control over our reserves side now we should also be looking to fill out that list with some of those mature role players you speak of.

I can understand the value of a Moore when the expectation is that he plays 95% of the season in the reserves, with maybe one or two senior appearances if the injury list gets bad. But I'd prefer to see Moore signed on a reserves contract, he fills the same role for 95% of the year and we only miss out on his (probably underwhelming) senior performance in those one or two games where we'd probably be fighting a losing battle anyway.

Then the senior list spot can be held for the mid-season draft to secure an in-form mature ager in a position of need, or a late bloomer who went undrafted.

Better yet would be to sign a player in the 26-30yo age range who can perform better than Moore at AFL level, but the reality is that there probably aren't going to be many of those still on the market. Majak Daw would be one, but the off-field stuff as far as his mental health goes is a bit of a concern. Would still like to see us dangle a 1-2 year offer to Trengrove and see if he wants to come out of retirement. Not sure McDonald is the answer - Melbourne fans seem unanimously ecstatic to see the back of him.
 
jd2010 said:
If we don't pick McDonald and heaven forbid we lost 2 of Weitering, Jones & Marchbank who are our two tall defenders in the 22 that week?
Click to expand...
Plow played as a KPD this year on Jack Darling and went O.K. Clearly couldn't play on the biggest gorillas but is only 2cm shorter than Dylan Grimes. Not the answer but maybe a short term solution.
 
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