List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[Danger in Texas]

So from 2012 to 2019, which first round draftee should have been an elite mid now?

Gallucci?
Milera?
Jones?
McHenry?
MCrouch?




I will say I do think we may have come out of this dark period and have some potential in Berry, Schoenberg, Rachele, Sog, Hately and maybe Pedlar.

But still, none of these guys, except maybe Rachele are going to be elite. They really are all workman.


Haggis and Co like workman mids. That is what they seem to identify and pick.


Imagine how bad out midfield would be if we didn't move Laird and Brisbane dudnt delist Keayes.

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Bit harsh calling Sog a 'workman' mid, think he has enough class to deserve not to be pigeon-holed as that (at this stage, anyway). Maybe harsh on Pedlar too, although that's more because he's still a genuine unknown

 

[WaynesWorld19]

How long has Hamish been our recruiter? You’re talking mostly newbies to be our next midfield. Jones and McHenry were drafted as mids and have been flops.

We've only been in rebuild mode since 2019 .....so yes, 3 years requires discussion revolves around newbies

Also comes back to the old chestnut .....do Clubs Draft on talent or factor needs ?

We went last year with Rachelle ....best available ? .... the obvious player to get was Finn Callaghan, who has already shown at AFL level, he's all class

I agree we desperately need a classy tall mid ....but I don't agree with the feeling, our recruiters are hopeless, based on the Jones / McHenry Draft Year

Again, 6 weeks ago Fogarty was a failed pick .....now, you can argue, posters went premature on their views

 

[rabidcrow]

The Ned McHenry you describe there is not the Ned McHenry I saw play live up close at least a half a dozen times in 2017 & 2018.

Why he has not been given exposure to the midfield is mistifying given when playing 2nd banana to Sam Walsh for the Falcons he was very solid in there. He may not be the quickest player out there but no way is he lacking in evasiveness and his kicking is not below average either.

Edward McHenry Draft Profile

DRAFT ANALYSIS: "A tenacious small midfielder/forward who has great evasion skills."

central.rookieme.com

https://central.rookieme.com/afl/advertise-with-us/

#8​

Edward McHenry​

Height: 176cm
Weight: 71kg
D.O.B: 13-07-2000
DRAFT ANALYSIS: "A tenacious small midfielder/forward who has great evasion skills."
Leagues: Under 18s Championships, NAB League Boys
OVERVIEW
Edward "Ned" McHenry is a player who has not let size get in the way of his AFL dream. There are not too many mid-170cm players who are talked about as first-round prospects, but that is how impressive McHenry has been over the journey. While his size might put some clubs off, like any smaller player coming into AFL draft consideration, McHenry has plenty of impressive traits that catch the eye, and he is certainly going to be a handy pick-up for whichever club decides to draft him. He is smart with the ball in hand, can evade opponents and run all day long with an elite tank, while he can play inside or outside - though he does not mark as much as other midfielders - and he is a profound tackler who loves the defensive side of football as much as the offensive side of football. He will likely fulfil that small forward role at AFL level, providing plenty of defensive pressure, or he could pinch hit on the outside being the player to use the ball going inside 50, however he does have limited speed. Either way, we expect he lands somewhere in the second round.
STRENGTHS

• Evasion
• Tackling
• Decision making
• Clearances
• Endurance
• Team-first approach

McHenry is a player who you would love as your teammate, but hate as your opponent. He has that fiery passion to bleed for the jumper and defend his teammates at all costs. At times it can result in free kicks going the other way, but if there is one player in the draft crop that you can guarantee will fly the flag for a teammate copping attention, that is certainly McHenry. He is not afraid to let an opponent know if they have made a mistake, but he walks the walk as well as talks the talk, running both ways impressively. His massive endurance base - a draft-crop leading 22.2 on the yo-yo test and an impressive 6:11 on the 2km time trial at the National Draft Combine, means he is in the elite echelon of gut-runners and this is the main thing that sets him aside from a lot of the other draftees.
On-field, his evasion, decision making and clearance work helps him have a few tricks he can display, and he has the ability to win the ball at the coal face, then dart out of a stoppage, not through acceleration, but through evasion. With ball-in-hand, McHenry makes good decisions, especially going inside 50, often pulling kicks or putting them in front of his teammates to their advantage. He finished the TAC Cup season with 66.3 per cent by foot and a 12 per cent clanger kick percentage rate, which is solid considering his role. He averaged 4.9 clearances, though that was ultimately diluted by moving around the ground and not being a pure inside midfielder the entire year, same with his tackling. McHenry recorded 5.3 tackles per game in the TAC Cup season playing between midfield and forward, then once he got his chance predominantly forward at the National Under 18 Championships, McHenry doubled that average to easily be the leading tackler from the competition. This is just one area of his team-first approach that he takes to his football and one of the reasons why teammates love to have him on their side and why he will no doubt be a player that future teammates enjoy being around.
IMPROVEMENTS

• Consistency
• Speed

In terms of improvements, there is not a great deal that McHenry does not at least do to an adequate level. He could be more consistent week-to-week, which is something that plagues almost all Under 18s players at some stage. It can depend on his role - whether he is inside, outside or forward, but generally he has some unbelievable games, and then some quiet ones. Case in point was against Calder Cannons in the Wildcard Round, he was a clear best on ground with 20 disposals, six tackles and two goals, more importantly standing up while co-captain Sam Walsh was copping plenty of attention from the opposition that day. The next week in Geelong's elimination final loss to Gippsland Power, he still had 18 disposals and three marks, but his impact on the contest was limited, not hitting the scoreboard and generally being a lot quieter. Secondly, McHenry is not the quickest player out there, which can often be overshadowed by his evasion and endurance, but in terms of acceleration or general speed, McHenry does have an area to build on. It is one of those things that will not be an issue for him with a forward role, but might be the question mark on an outside midfield role.
DRAFT PROJECTION: 15-40
SUMMARY
Ned McHenry is a great player who clubs should not overlook just because of his size. Like any Under 18s player, McHenry has his great games and his quieter games, and he is not the quickest player going around. However, he is the draft crop gut-runner who is a tackling machine with good evasion techniques and decision making, as well as an ability to win clearances and play through the midfield or up forward. He is one of those players that will have a high standard he sets himself, and once he slots into a club at the elite level, expect him to get the absolute most out of himself.

Look I generally am not negative on our guys. I really don’t like to be. The error that Walker made on the weekend where he got the handball from Ned and then shanked the kick - they ran up the other end and kicked a goal and the game was officially done

I don’t believe Walker calls for that ball with any of our other forwards - he did it because he had no confidence Ned could make the distance let alone kick it accurately. Kicking from well inside 50. Very few players in the league can’t kick that far

Totally see Ned has great changeroom presence and he certainly was winning me over last year based on that. As a small forward though he is terrible - not average in any statistical category you can name, don’t even notice his tackles or pressure when compared to a young Cameron

If he could make it as a mid then shame on us for not giving him a better opportunity but he doesn’t make another team in the comp as a small forward (neither does Murph)


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[George CantStandYa]

We've only been in rebuild mode since 2019 .....so yes, 3 years requires discussion revolves around newbies

Also comes back to the old chestnut .....do Clubs Draft on talent or factor needs ?

We went last year with Rachelle ....best available ? .... the obvious player to get was Finn Callaghan, who has already shown at AFL level, he's all class

I agree we desperately need a classy tall mid ....but I don't agree with the feeling, our recruiters are hopeless, based on the Jones / McHenry Draft Year

Again, 6 weeks ago Fogarty was a failed pick .....now, you can argue, posters went premature on their views

It doesn’t matter that we’ve been in rebuild mode for 3 years, the job of the recruiter is to build a side, continually. Not only has he not done that for our current midfield, he drafted 3 short arsed failed mids with high draft picks in Gallucci, Jones and McHenry.

Besides Soligo, all we have is hope that the rest come on. On the surface the drafting looks better in the last couple of years, but if it’s too early to write them off, it’s too early to write them up.

 

[jackster83]

Bit depressing that Ralphsmith just won the rising star nom for this week.

Big bodied mid drafted three picks after we took O'Connor.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So from 2012 to 2019, which first round draftee should have been an elite mid now?

Gallucci?
Milera?
Jones?
McHenry?
MCrouch?




I will say I do think we may have come out of this dark period and have some potential in Berry, Schoenberg, Rachele, Sog, Hately and maybe Pedlar.

Be careful on your Berry views .....people went early on another man-child in SPP ....who has levelled off

Milera should have been a Mid by now ....injury has cruelled him ....but 7 possessions on the weekend was unacceptable

Crouch was a 2nd round pick ....suited the gameplan at the time, and the midfield mix, at the time .....but all clubs now are selecting / drafting speed as an essential midfield element

Who are our speedy midfielders ??? .....the linecutters ....the players that draw multiple opponents, and free-up teammates ?

 

[Geoffa32]

That's just not correct...Chayce Jones was very well thought of as a likely 1st round draft pick. All Australian at the Nationals, runnner up in the Tasmanian State League off of only 7 games against the men as an 18 year old.

Sure he's failed to live up to it big time but he went pretty close to where he was predicted to go.

Chayce Jones Draft Profile

DRAFT ANALYSIS: "A versatile, speedy player of great character who finds the football and works hard defensively."

central.rookieme.com

View attachment 1444622

The draft bio you posted pretty much labels him a workman. No standout attributes. But works hard.




Edit, sorry you posted Ned McHenry bio.


Chayce Jones here. One big red flag that has been proven true at AFL level

Weakness - decision making

He has very low Footy IQ. The warning signs were there.


AFL level, midfield in particular, Footy IQ is important.

Chayce Jones Draft Profile

DRAFT ANALYSIS: "A versatile, speedy player of great character who finds the football and works hard defensively."

central.rookieme.com

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[Geoffa32]

Bit harsh calling Sog a 'workman' mid, think he has enough class to deserve not to be pigeon-holed as that (at this stage, anyway). Maybe harsh on Pedlar too, although that's more because he's still a genuine unknown

I hope I am proven wrong.

Take no pleasure in not seeing us do well.


There is the bones there of a good midfield. Just need the cream.

Little things like Berry burning his I50s, despite being brilliant in general play.

But that final possession causes the turnover/kills a scoring chance.

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[WaynesWorld19]

Besides Soligo, all we have is hope that the rest come on. On the surface the drafting looks better in the last couple of years, but if it’s too early to write them off, it’s too early to write them up.

Exactly ....supporters can only form opinions on what they see gameday .....but as Kelly said tonight, they're evaluating the list, rotating players thru, not only the team, but thru different positions ......why you ask ?

Because there will be some tough delistings in 6 weeks time

This Club rebuilt quickly after the Tippett saga ....playing in a Grand Final 4 years later
ESS got a lighter penalty, and look where they still are

This Club knows what it takes ....it's also dependent on the Draft Quality & player type at our picks

However, I am critical of our lack of aggression in trading up to get the player type we need

 

[Ramify]

Bit harsh calling Sog a 'workman' mid, think he has enough class to deserve not to be pigeon-holed as that (at this stage, anyway). Maybe harsh on Pedlar too, although that's more because he's still a genuine unknown

Workman mid in the same vein as Garry McIntosh was a workman mid perhaps.

 

[Mutineer]

The draft bio you posted pretty much labels him a workman. No standout attributes. But works hard.







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That's your take...
That's not how I read workman like.

Jones is a natural ball-winner who can win possession on the inside and outside of the contest. He's got several noticeable strengths such as his outstanding work-rate, his repeated efforts, his ability to runs both ways and his constant pressure around the contest. He's a handy ball user, who can kick on both sides of his body, which is a must-have for midfielders in the modern era.
Jones has the speed and agility required to weave through congestion at stoppages, along with the toughness and mindset to apply tackles when needed. He recorded an 8.270-second agility test score further showing how quick he is on the move.
He is a fearless competitor and he isn't afraid to put his head over the ball on a continuous basis. This was evident during the National Championships when he averaged over six tackles a match. He caught the eye of many on-lookers during the carnival, especially in his teams' win against Vic Country when he amassed 28 disposals (16 contested), five marks, six tackles, five clearance and two goals in a scintillating performance.

 

[Ramify]

Exactly ....supporters can only form opinions on what they see gameday .....but as Kelly said tonight, they're evaluating the list, rotating players thru, not only the team, but thru different positions ......why you ask ?

Because there will be some tough delistings in 6 weeks time

This Club rebuilt quickly after the Tippett saga ....playing in a Grand Final 4 years later
ESS got a lighter penalty, and look where they still are

This Club knows what it takes ....it's also dependent on the Draft Quality & player type at our picks

However, I am critical of our lack of aggression in trading up to get the player type we need

Did the Tippet saga have that much to do with 4 years later though? Wouldn't it be a bit more closely related to where we are right now as far as the imbalance of our list profile?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Bit depressing that Ralphsmith just won the rising star nom for this week.

Big bodied mid drafted three picks after we took O'Connor.

He'll always be a Seedsman type player .....not a franchise player, or a player you can build a midfield around

 

[George CantStandYa]

Exactly ....supporters can only form opinions on what they see gameday .....but as Kelly said tonight, they're evaluating the list, rotating players thru, not only the team, but thru different positions ......why you ask ?

Because there will be some tough delistings in 6 weeks time

This Club rebuilt quickly after the Tippett saga ....playing in a Grand Final 4 years later
ESS got a lighter penalty, and look where they still are

This Club knows what it takes ....it's also dependent on the Draft Quality & player type at our picks

However, I am critical of our lack of aggression in trading up to get the player type we need

When did he say that? On 5AA it was more blaming our performances on the inexperience of our list and defending the rebuild. Not one mention of shitty experienced players, shitty game plan and selections.

We already had the nucleus of a goods side after the Tippett debacle, the draft picks we lost were always going to hurt later which we’ve clearly seen.

I have no faith in Ogilvie, Reid and Roo to get the rebuild right not Nicks to coach well. Remember this bloke Ogilvie and Reid are the same guys who have given us our current midfield and blown 3 first rounders on midget mids and with McAsey still very questionable despite your faith.

 

[Danger in Texas]

He'll always be a Seedsman type player .....not a franchise player, or a player you can build a midfield around

Still better than O’Connor

 

[George CantStandYa]

Still better than O’Connor

Still on a AFL list for starters

 

[1990crow]

That's your take...
That's not how I read workman like.

Jones is a natural ball-winner who can win possession on the inside and outside of the contest. He's got several noticeable strengths such as his outstanding work-rate, his repeated efforts, his ability to runs both ways and his constant pressure around the contest. He's a handy ball user, who can kick on both sides of his body, which is a must-have for midfielders in the modern era.
Jones has the speed and agility required to weave through congestion at stoppages, along with the toughness and mindset to apply tackles when needed. He recorded an 8.270-second agility test score further showing how quick he is on the move.
He is a fearless competitor and he isn't afraid to put his head over the ball on a continuous basis. This was evident during the National Championships when he averaged over six tackles a match. He caught the eye of many on-lookers during the carnival, especially in his teams' win against Vic Country when he amassed 28 disposals (16 contested), five marks, six tackles, five clearance and two goals in a scintillating performance.

Maybe Hamish just wasnt a good judge. As appears to be the case on most of his first year round selections.

 

[Danger in Texas]

I hope I am proven wrong.

Take no pleasure in not seeing us do well.


There is the bones there of a good midfield. Just need the cream.

Little things like Berry burning his I50s, despite being brilliant in general play.

But that final possession causes the turnover/kills a scoring chance.

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Yeah I agree, definitely about getting the mix right, adding the cream as you say. I think Soligo can be a part of that as a part-time inside, part-time wingman type, but not the A+, Bont/Fyfe-like cream that we really need

Basically, we need to luck out and hit on an elite mid in the next couple of drafts. We can give them time to develop, as I don’t think we’ll get our midfield mix truly right until 2025 at the earliest (with two of Berry/Keays/Laird left in the midfield rotation)

 

[Geoffa32]

That's your take...
That's not how I read workman like.

Jones is a natural ball-winner who can win possession on the inside and outside of the contest. He's got several noticeable strengths such as his outstanding work-rate, his repeated efforts, his ability to runs both ways and his constant pressure around the contest. He's a handy ball user, who can kick on both sides of his body, which is a must-have for midfielders in the modern era.
Jones has the speed and agility required to weave through congestion at stoppages, along with the toughness and mindset to apply tackles when needed. He recorded an 8.270-second agility test score further showing how quick he is on the move.
He is a fearless competitor and he isn't afraid to put his head over the ball on a continuous basis. This was evident during the National Championships when he averaged over six tackles a match. He caught the eye of many on-lookers during the carnival, especially in his teams' win against Vic Country when he amassed 28 disposals (16 contested), five marks, six tackles, five clearance and two goals in a scintillating performance.

Decision making as a weakness? Why you skip that? Massive red flag.

For a midfielder at AFL level Footy IQ is vital.



He did well at Under-age level and the TFL on physical ability and yes he does have good skills.
Which is why I think he could salvage his career at HB. Up and down role, less traffic. Not AFL midfield though.



I do wonder if our player aptitude testing of draftees is an issue.



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[Mutineer]

Still better than O’Connor

Actually Ronin was starting to show a bit at SANFL in his final year and he's had some big games in the WAFL this year, finding a lot more ball now.

 

[Geoffa32]

Yeah I agree, definitely about getting the mix right, adding the cream as you say. I think Soligo can be a part of that as a part-time inside, part-time wingman type, but not the A+, Bont/Fyfe-like cream that we really need

Basically, we need to luck out and hit on an elite mid in the next couple of drafts. We can give them time to develop, as I don’t think we’ll get our midfield mix truly right until 2025 at the earliest (with two of Berry/Keays/Laird left in the midfield rotation)

We need to sell the farm for JHF.

If he wants out of Melbourne, not just Norf, we have to get him.

The next two years first and second round picks.




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[rabidcrow]

We've only been in rebuild mode since 2019 .....so yes, 3 years requires discussion revolves around newbies

Also comes back to the old chestnut .....do Clubs Draft on talent or factor needs ?

We went last year with Rachelle ....best available ? .... the obvious player to get was Finn Callaghan, who has already shown at AFL level, he's all class

I agree we desperately need a classy tall mid ....but I don't agree with the feeling, our recruiters are hopeless, based on the Jones / McHenry Draft Year

Again, 6 weeks ago Fogarty was a failed pick .....now, you can argue, posters went premature on their views

I switch between total despair with our rebuild and some hope. I do believe things are never as bad as they seem (beat Port,Bulldogs earlier in the year and Geelong, Melbourne last year) and honestly if we added a 150 game CHB , 1 A grade mid and a quality small forward we would be capable of challenging for finals.
Need a big off-season both trade and drafting wise


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[Bearded Clam]

I switch between total despair with our rebuild and some hope. I do believe things are never as bad as they seem (beat Port,Bulldogs earlier in the year and Geelong, Melbourne last year) and honestly if we added a 150 game CHB , 1 A grade mid and a quality small forward we would be capable of challenging for finals.
Need a big off-season both trade and drafting wise


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we need more than 1 A grade mid.. we need to replace all of crouch, keays and laird.

the three of them are complete liabilities.

 

[Crow till I die]

we need more than 1 A grade mid.. we need to replace all of crouch, keays and laird.

the three of them are complete liabilities.

Disagree re Laird and Keays but this is why

We need to add in 2 A grade mids - hopefully we are drafting one in November with our likely top 3 pick. I am still hopeful that Pedlar if he can get his body right and get a really big preseason in might end up being the other with what his skillset promised when we drafted him - burst from a stoppage and can hit the scoreboard. The we can run a pure ball winner in Laird there to compliment what hopefully is 2 A graders. Keays imo has always had tagger written all over him and that would be his role going forward - a gut running hard tacking player that you could direct to the oppo's best mid to try and limit them

Then if we can nail that part of the ground with a Tsatsas or Phillipou or Hewitt, a fully fit Pedlar (fingers crossed) and the others, we can deal with the outside mids by running Dawson off a wing and look at a Soligo (although I hope he gets more of a look as an inside mid) or preferably Parnell off the other - I like Parnell going forward in that role if he can keep progressing as he has a quick burst of acceleration and hits a target by foot well and is not afraid to go for the harder more rewarding option with his kicks. IF and its an IF a few of these blocks could fall into place, then Laird and Keays have roles to play in our push towards becoming a top end side

 

[GROTTO]

we need more than 1 A grade mid.. we need to replace all of crouch, keays and laird.

the three of them are complete liabilities.

Teams that win flags, bat deep in the midfield.

Youre correct. We need to replace all 3. We have no midfielders whatsoever, let alone depth.