List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Our shithouse game plan has erased any progress we made in 2021.

Playing our wings and small forwards as pseudo-mids because our experienced midfielders are poor offensively and defensively, and having our best kick deep in defence because we still lose the midfield (even with it being completely stacked). It also means we aren't picking guys who possess the skills best suited to play the wing and half forward roles.

The way we played last year was beneficial for the likes of Ned and Schoenberg who love to take the game on.

We are clearly worried about being score heavily against but by failing to address the root cause (our experienced midfielders who don't get the job done) we have stymied what was working. Plus we're now horrible to watch.

There's no doubt we have had a more defensive gameplan this year ....which considering how light the majority of players on our list are, makes it hard .....our tackling has been woeful, we simply cannot stick a tackle, oppo easily run thru our tackles

Nicks said year 1, he wanted an attacking gamestyle .....I still believe this is his want
However, you need a team, more experienced, to carry that out

In my mind, as small as it is, I believe we are patch quilting the side, to look at players / roles ....with a view of year end delistings & getting games into a wide array of players .....building a base around contested ball, which as I stated is hard, when you're undersized

Out KPP are undersized ....our Mids are undersized ....and unfortunately, there's no short-cut's there ....it's 2-3 Pre-seasons

 

[George CantStandYa]

Most neutral footy supporters would say GWS have a list rich in talent ......HAW has been praised for their season, rebuilding, but still heavily supported by senior Premiership players .....and ESS a Finalist from last year, also has a wealth of talent, but has some key deficiencies; KPD, KPF, and small fwd

ADEL with the youngest list, not many "A" grade mature players, could still finish above these other 3 clubs

Have we progressed this year .....hell no, been disappointing ....from 2021, we're missing T.Lynch, Seedsman & McKay ....but these should have been compensated for by Dawson, Milera, and Crouch returning

Most missed is the long kicking Seedsman

Performance, as can be seen by the teams on the same # wins ....is not always about talent, but often it's team cohesion & gameplan .....however the gameplan is also impacted by the experience at your disposal, and ability to carry out that gameplan

View attachment 1445558

Given the way Nicks has decided to use this wings this year, what would that mean for Seeds? He could have replaced him with Dawson but instead has decided to go negative.

 

[MRB37]

There's no doubt we have had a more defensive gameplan this year ....which considering how light the majority of players on our list are, makes it hard .....our tackling has been woeful, we simply cannot stick a tackle, oppo easily run thru our tackles

Nicks said year 1, he wanted an attacking gamestyle .....I still believe this is his want
However, you need a team, more experienced, to carry that out

In my mind, as small as it is, I believe we are patch quilting the side, to look at players / roles ....with a view of year end delistings & getting games into a wide array of players .....building a base around contested ball, which as I stated is hard, when you're undersized

Out KPP are undersized ....our Mids are undersized ....and unfortunately, there's no short-cut's there ....it's 2-3 Pre-seasons

The defensive gameplan is frustrating because he has opened it up at times and it's been when we've looked the most dangerous. But he uses it as a last resort "roll of the dice" option and seems to only want to pull it out when we get 6+ goals down and have no other choice but try to score heavily to catch up, though given the personnel he's selecting so we can play defensive, we're not exactly blessed with great ball users to be super potent with an attacking mindset, so he's boxing the team in quite a bit in what they can potentially do.

Otherwise he seems content to keep it close and hope we can grind out a win, or at the very least lose by as little as possible and then write it up as a positive. I'm not sure if we're learning how to win or just learning how to lose by as little as possible at this point.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Absolutely spot on assessment .....selection authenticity is the single most important criteria in a team environment .....every player knows where they're ranked, they rank themselves against teammates vying for similar roles

Having a player that won't commit to the cause, like Stephenson .....causes "some" teammates to say "why bother busting my gut"

Likewise players being "gifted" games .....so "we can have a look at them" ...cause a similar cancer thru the team

Supporters look at individual performance, but overlook the domino impact on performance & cohesion

What are we seeing with us?

We're not gifting kids games. In fact players like Cook, Worrell, Newchurch are being kept on the outer if anything.

We're not rewarding uncommitted players. In fact high effort, low output players like Murphy, McHenry are heralded and valued extremely highly.

Why aren't these High Selection Authenticity actions we're displaying producing better results?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Given the way Nicks has decided to use this wings this year, what would that mean for Seeds? He could have replaced him with Dawson but instead has decided to go negative.

Or would Nicks have used his Wings differently, if Seedsman & Dawson had been played there ......and our DEF didn't leak like a colander

And of course on that old "chestnut" .....the DEF would have stood up better IF we had a decent midfield mix

This is a major point, re the midfield mix .....look at the game in replay ...HAW Mids used their legs to break free of contests / ball-ups and delivered mostly by foot

Us however, handballed out of congestion, with a multitude of in-close handballs .....our Mids by in large, don't use legs to power out of congestion ....and of course size is a factor in this .....maybe why we recruited Turner ??

This using your legs more, rather than handball, was why Neale's game has improved this year .....less in close handballs, more using legs to clear congestion ......but that's time in the gym & a desire to change your gamestyle (looking at you Matt)

 

[WaynesWorld19]

The defensive gameplan is frustrating because he has opened it up at times and it's been when we've looked the most dangerous. But he uses it as a last resort "roll of the dice" option and seems to only want to pull it out when we get 6+ goals down and have no other choice but try to score heavily to catch up, though given the personnel he's selecting so we can play defensive, we're not exactly blessed with great ball users to be super potent with an attacking mindset, so he's boxing the team in quite a bit in what they can potentially do.

Otherwise he seems content to keep it close and hope we can grind out a win, or at the very least lose by as little as possible and then write it up as a positive. I'm not sure if we're learning how to win or just learning how to lose by as little as possible at this point.

They're good points & I agree ....I feel Nicks is using this years gameplan, as part of players development ....and partly due to our size

Was this year about winning & making the eight .....or as a development year ?

You can mount an argument, you need 3 years at the bottom, to get the high level picks

 

[jackster83]

Or would Nicks have used his Wings differently, if Seedsman & Dawson had been played there ......and our DEF didn't leak like a colander

And of course on that old "chestnut" .....the DEF would have stood up better IF we had a decent midfield mix

This is a major point, re the midfield mix .....look at the game in replay ...HAW Mids used their legs to break free of contests / ball-ups and delivered mostly by foot

Us however, handballed out of congestion, with a multitude of in-close handballs .....our Mids by in large, don't use legs to power out of congestion ....and of course size is a factor in this .....maybe why we recruited Turner ??

This using your legs more, rather than handball, was why Neale's game has improved this year .....less in close handballs, more using legs to clear congestion ......but that's time in the gym & a desire to change your gamestyle (looking at you Matt)

That's the most frustrating part.

We are desperately throwing the changes around - gameplan and personnel wise except for the very thing causing the issues. The three amigos in the midfield has been the one constant for most of the season.

We've ****ed the rest of the side over just to accommodate the four of them (including ROB)

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The defensive gameplan is frustrating because he has opened it up at times and it's been when we've looked the most dangerous. But he uses it as a last resort "roll of the dice" option and seems to only want to pull it out when we get 6+ goals down and have no other choice but try to score heavily to catch up, though given the personnel he's selecting so we can play defensive, we're not exactly blessed with great ball users to be super potent with an attacking mindset, so he's boxing the team in quite a bit in what they can potentially do.

Otherwise he seems content to keep it close and hope we can grind out a win, or at the very least lose by as little as possible and then write it up as a positive. I'm not sure if we're learning how to win or just learning how to lose by as little as possible at this point.

Exactly right

We'd be a depressing place to play at the moment.

Players who take a risk or take the game on would be getting hauled over the coals in review meetings for the errors they make. Learning to play a safe, boring game bereft of any dare. Attacking instincts filed away. Players who excel in safe, boring, disciplined football would be celebrated internally by the coaches.

We're ripe for a new coach who brings with him a change of mindset. Shackles off. Freedom.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

What are we seeing with us?

We're not gifting kids games. In fact players like Cook, Worrell, Newchurch are being kept on the outer if anything.

We're not rewarding uncommitted players. In fact high effort, low output players like Murphy, McHenry are heralded and valued extremely highly.

Why aren't these High Selection Authenticity actions we're displaying producing better results?

You're naming Worrell simply because you want to see him and NewChurch at AFL Level .....not because those players have banged the door down with outstanding SANFL form

Cook ....7 games from 17 completed rounds

So who has out performed McHenry, Jones & Murphy ? .....Rachelle, and McAdam but both are injured

McPherson would challenge Jones ....but again is injured

 

[George CantStandYa]

Or would Nicks have used his Wings differently, if Seedsman & Dawson had been played there ......and our DEF didn't leak like a colander

And of course on that old "chestnut" .....the DEF would have stood up better IF we had a decent midfield mix

This is a major point, re the midfield mix .....look at the game in replay ...HAW Mids used their legs to break free of contests / ball-ups and delivered mostly by foot

Us however, handballed out of congestion, with a multitude of in-close handballs .....our Mids by in large, don't use legs to power out of congestion ....and of course size is a factor in this .....maybe why we recruited Turner ??

This using your legs more, rather than handball, was why Neale's game has improved this year .....less in close handballs, more using legs to clear congestion ......but that's time in the gym & a desire to change your gamestyle (looking at you Matt)

There’s been no change to our defence personnel from this year until last, so why the need to protect it more?

We’ve also changed the use of our wing during the year to become more defensive. Early in the season we had a 3-3 record against decent opponents, scored more (even without Tex) and points against are no worse than what they are now. Except we’ve only won 2 games since, still cop bad losses and are boring as bat shit to watch.

All because we had a couple of poor losses against the Giants and Carlton and because Nicks is a shit coach.

I also agree about our midfield being a major issue and then Nicks decides to play Crouch and worse off, had him on the wing on the weekend. I don’t think in the history of the AFL there is a player less suited to wing that’s actually played there than Crouch. Nicks is a moron.

 

[WeedsMullet84]

I reckon they are over listening to Nicks….

Or maybe, as Nicks explicitly states in the video, they're about to go through their match reviews....

Have you ever been through a match review, particularly one where you know you're about to watch vision of just how bad you are?

My guess is that you've never been part of a competitive sporting environment at all.

The players defensive body language says it all

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

You're naming Worrell simply because you want to see him and NewChurch at AFL Level .....not because those players have banged the door down with outstanding SANFL form

Cook ....7 games from 17 completed rounds

So who has out performed McHenry, Jones & Murphy ? .....Rachelle, and McAdam but both are injured

McPherson would challenge Jones ....but again is injured

No I'm not

I'm listing them as players who would be "gifted games" if they were selected now. Which is what you pointed out - that selecting players of that type would be gifting games, destroy culture, be cancerous etc.

We're not picking those players. We're not gifting games.

We are using what you call selection integrity.

And where has it got us?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

That's the most frustrating part.

We are desperately throwing the changes around - gameplan and personnel wise except for the very thing causing the issues. The three amigos in the midfield has been the one constant for most of the season.

We've *ed the rest of the side over just to accommodate the four of them (including ROB)

Totally agree ....no-one will convince me ROB or Crouch are positives for our side

The Midfield has been our Achilles heel for 4 years at least

I love Laird as a Mid ....he has unique mid attributes ....however you have to surround him with the right Mids ....and that's not Crouch

I did like Rachelle the few minutes he's been in the midfield .....looks like he'll develop the leg power to break clear of congestion ....hopefully Turner as well

 

[George CantStandYa]

You're naming Worrell simply because you want to see him and NewChurch at AFL Level .....not because those players have banged the door down with outstanding SANFL form

Cook ....7 games from 17 completed rounds

So who has out performed McHenry, Jones & Murphy ? .....Rachelle, and McAdam but both are injured

McPherson would challenge Jones ....but again is injured

The coaches have talked up Worrell during the year and his form has been good enough to at least try. This would also allow Dawson to move to the wing.

Murphys SANFL form was nothing to write home about. He was dropped, played one game, kicked 2 goals courtesy of Newchurch who played a blinder and he gets the recall. Not because of form but because of of experience, that’s the only justification Nicks could give and he stunk again.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

No I'm not

I'm listing them as players who would be "gifted games" if they were selected now. Which is what you pointed out - that selecting players of that type would be gifting games, destroy culture, be cancerous etc.

We're not picking those players. We're not gifting games.

We are using what you call selection integrity.

And where has it got us?

Gifting games has never been an ADEL thing

However, as I outlined, there's a lot of moving parts to getting the preferred gameplan, skillsets, team mix right .....hence why it's called a rebuild ....a rebuild by definition is that all is not perfect yet

 

[George CantStandYa]

Or maybe, as Nicks explicitly states in the video, they're about to go through their match reviews....

Have you ever been through a match review, particularly one where you know you're about to watch vision of just how bad you are?

My guess is that you've never been part of a competitive sporting environment at all.

The players defensive body language says it all

A couple of things then, what a stupid time to make such an announcement.

Secondly, maybe just maybe they actually are over Nicks, maybe some think he’s too defensive

Lastly, Cornsey, please share your sporting history so we can gauge your credibility.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Or maybe, as Nicks explicitly states in the video, they're about to go through their match reviews....

Have you ever been through a match review, particularly one where you know you're about to watch vision of just how bad you are?

My guess is that you've never been part of a competitive sporting environment at all.

The players defensive body language says it all

Only the absolute shittest of organisations would reverse over a terrible performance. Relive every negative.

 

[George CantStandYa]

Gifting games has never been an ADEL thing

However, as I outlined, there's a lot of moving parts to getting the preferred gameplan, skillsets, team mix right .....hence why it's called a rebuild ....a rebuild by definition is that all is not perfect yet

Why did we play Murphy? He was gifted a game.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Gifting games has never been an ADEL thing

That's right

And how are we going?

That's the question I'm asking. Is it worthwhile continuing with our current selection model?

 

[Scorpus]

Gifting games has never been an ADEL thing

However, as I outlined, there's a lot of moving parts to getting the preferred gameplan, skillsets, team mix right .....hence why it's called a rebuild ....a rebuild by definition is that all is not perfect yet

Of course we gift games and have done so for years.

The difference is we don't gift games to young players. We exclusively reserve our gifts for "experienced" players no matter how badly they are playing

 

[George CantStandYa]

Of course we gift games and have done so for years.

The difference is we don't gift games to young players. We exclusively reserve our gifts for "experienced" players no matter how badly they are playing

Murphys last recall is a prime example. The only justification Nicks gave was experience, he couldn’t say form.

 

[skittlebrew]

Murphys last recall is a prime example. The only justification Nicks gave was experience, he couldn’t say form.

'Get the boys to 50 games and everything will be fine'

I don't think this is going to be the magic bullet everyone thinks it will be. Those players still need to have some underlying talent to begin with.

 

[Scorpus]

Murphys last recall is a prime example. The only justification Nicks gave was experience, he couldn’t say form.

And that wouldn't even make the top 10 gifts we've given.

Remember us gifting Sam Jacobs his 200th game even though he was leaving and we needed to get games into O'Brien?

Or the Mackay recall without playing SANFL at all?

Or Thompson and Van Berlo's last games?

There's been some shockers

 

[WaynesWorld19]

There’s been no change to our defence personnel from this year until last, so why the need to protect it more?

We’ve also changed the use of our wing during the year to become more defensive. Early in the season we had a 3-3 record against decent opponents, scored more (even without Tex) and points against are no worse than what they are now. Except we’ve only won 2 games since, still cop bad losses and are boring as bat s**t to watch.

All because we had a couple of poor losses against the Giants and Carlton and because Nicks is a s**t coach.

I also agree about our midfield being a major issue and then Nicks decides to play Crouch and worse off, had him on the wing on the weekend. I don’t think in the world history of the AFL there isn’t a player less suited to wing that’s actually played there than Crouch. Nicks is a moron.

Good points .....but I certainly don't think Nicks is a moron ....or his experienced asst Coach's don't discuss all the options of Def versus offensive gameplan

IMO Butts has been poor this year .....and Smith worse than poor

Agree ....the major issue, other than team cohesion, is the midfield & flow on impact ....reasons, i have already outlined above

CM = Contested marks - down
I50 = Inside 50 - down
MI5 = Marks inside 50 - down
CCL = Centre Clearances - down
SI = Score Involvements - Down

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Blight would throw a young player in there without worrying if it was the right call.

What's important to understand is that plenty were stuff ups - Tom Gilligan, Brent Williams, Lance Picioane, Linden Stevens, Andrew Eccles

Andrew Eccles

Age

46

Ht

187cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

3.5

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.4

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

2.8

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

4star

- which you need to have so that you get the Simon Goodwin

Simon Goodwin

Age

48

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.9

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

8.8

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

, Kane Johnson and Tyson Edwards

Tyson Edwards

Age

49

Ht

178cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.0

5star

K

11.7

4star

HB

7.3

5star

M

4.5

4star

T

2.6

4star

CL

2.1

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.6

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

0.6

3star

right ones.

For some reason we wait for guarantees?

If we pick Newchurch in a few games for instance and he SUCKS, looks scared, goes into his shell or whatever then that's a good thing because we can delist him and move on. If he shows a few glimpses but battles overall that's also good because we can see into the future that he's got something and gives him a clear picture of what he needs to work on.