List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[Taylor]

I think improved gameplan and movement gets us to 4th - 5th like last year. There is a fundamental gap in forward talent that would stop us going further unless Amiss becomes the best KPF in the game in the next few years.

We do need an option for the last line item on the plan for when everything else isn't an option at that moment, it's almost always the long kick down the line, we need that player who can turn that into a win for us.

But we can work around that with ball movement plans. Plenty of very average players have looked like stars because they were running in the right place when players up field worked their actual magic to get the ball towards them.

There's probably 20% of the game decided by magical moments where the player pulls a win/goal out of their arse through sheer talent, we've skated on those for a while, but most of it is about having the right player in the right spot at the right time performing at an acceptably, predictably, average fashion at that moment.

It's why simple errors are so painful to watch.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I'll also say on Treacy that i dont think he's ever more than a 3rd tall forward type that also goes in the ruck. His best games at WAFL level are always the ones where he spends more time in the ruck and around the ground. I think he'd also be a fantastic defender but I think anyone relying on him to be a long time partner to Amiss is going to be disappointed.

IF and I mean IF there is anything behind a Darcy into Naughton type move, Treacy as the fwd/ruck would be the best use of him IMO.

 

[Polo342]

I personally feel we need to throw the cheque book at Picket and Logan Mcdonald. Naughton for me just isnt gettable. Let Fyfe go to another club and Walters to retire. Use that cash to go after Picket and Mcdonald.

Frederick Mcdonald Sturt
Jackson Amiss Pickett

 

[go_the_dockers]

How do those names differ from Brayshaw, Serong, Young, Cox, Darcy and co?

We didn't get the Ablett, Hawkins, Scarlett in the pick 40s as father sons to help... allowing us to pick the other guys with the higher picks... so maybe THAT was the reason the entire time?

yeah, F/s favoured them massively but if we had not turned picks 5 and 6 (Rozee and King), into Lobb, Hogan, Sturt and change, we would not be talking about this.

I would go further, and say that instead of targeting players like Matera and co, we should have been looking at 2nd tiers comp like the cats did with Pods....

 

[Quazar]

If we keep losing games then picks will be the least of our concern.
Some of our Top quality youngsters will start looking at other clubs and their agents longingly. We know how that ends

this is probably inevitable. Even our strategy of trading in Western Australians to eliminate the "go home factor" didn't work in the end: Logue, Hogan, Acres, B. Hill, Lobb all in recent years have asked or sought to be traded or traded out, without too much return for what we got for them or at best a few serviceable years (Hill, Lobb even Acres) and just in retrospect, plain disastrous (Hogan). Overall though, it's placed us on thin ice, because now we KNOW no one is safe. Many of them lead to some good acquisitions in the draft, like Serong from the Hill trade etc, but many of them have left us in this position - with too holes to fill and a game style that makes us look like 3 legged blind mammoths that can't football for Tim-Tams.

Anyone of them could ask to leave (as if it wasn't depressing enough). If Cerra was go home risk factor being drafted with a lofty pick 5, now we have West Aussies leaving for varied reasons and really it just boils down to meekly watching talent leave, and then panicking and going after more "sell the farm" miracles, like the Jackson trade. At the end of the day are we just papering over the cracks of a wider issue and trying to keep the fans invested whilst the club disparagingly bludgeons its way through another unmitigated disaster or 2, I'm not crying conspiracy here; but beneath the veneer, we seem a bit broken. A little bit...damaged. they said we're now a destination club - do you believe that?! Do you think if we finish with 7 or 8 wins (or even less) that other clubs' players will see it that way?!?! And you do have to question the football operations at the end of the day, the good boys club with Garlick and Boyd and Murphy etc.....have we got the right people at the helm?! I think it's a fair question.

We haven't learnt from past mistakes. We brought in Kersten on the cheap back in 2016 as maybe a quick-fix for a forward line now missing one Matthew Pavlich (and of course Mayne left at the end of that year too), and if it's true about his toxic culture character, it ultimately cost us Neale, who I believe clashed with him according to speculative rumours and then maybe saw the writing on the wall for Freo as a place he wanted to fulfil his career desires at....and so he headed for the exits, never really disclosing his reasons but hinting at perhaps the culture, the nature of the place and the lack of professionalism maybe (??). Of course, there's always the narrative "he didn't want to be second fiddle to Fyfe/jealous/arrogant" whatever, I don't know about that.......sounds more mythical to me than not - I mean he has to mix with other mids at Brissy, he can't do it alone, but it cost us a player who would have definitely solidified our midfield prowess in ensuing years than not. And we got Hogan out of it, which in the end was a big f** up. We now know that.

At the time, despite calls of "due diligence", I think we needed to look like we were doing something, being 'proactive'. The rebuild was a few years in, Ross and his gameday approach was looking a bit jaded; fans growing restless of previous years beltings (that heavy loss to Geelong tail end of 2018..) etc. And obviously our forward line was sucking balls then, as it is now...still a completely messed up area of our team and game, so I think borne out of desperation the club again sought to bolster stocks and fan-interest by bringing in Lobb and Hogan. From the outside looking in, it seemed like a good move (unless you're Joao and a few others!). I've said it before, but without them our tall forward stocks that year were Tabs, McCarthy and Kersten (who eventually shifted to defense anyway before heading into the gorges of obscurity and football oblivion). But again, we ultimately stuffed up.

In the end, I don't know what the solutions are, I mean. I'm not supposed to, I'm just a mere spectator, a footy fan lost in the crowds, but I have my opinions whatever salt they're worth or not......we're just not a great or even good organisation in the AFL landscape, we get pissed on at alarmingly regular rates and we allow it (4 straight season of opening our year playing away), being sent to Tassy (when other Victorian teams closer seemingly don't have to) and sometimes even the Northern Territory, and we accept it, convince ourselves if we're good enough we can play "anyone, anytime; anywhere". it's a nice mantra, but the reality is, we get shafted because they can. They can do what they like to us, we don't ever stand up against it and we are (sadly) mediocre. In what we do, we can't cash in when the going looks good.

Just my opinion of course, but from what I've seen and with the scar tissue from previous years still prevalent too; this season is cooked and we're not finals bound - which is so sad after the progress we made last year. False dawn?! I don't know...maybe. We have really only 1 choice now, scrap what we're doing...accept a bit more pain, hopefully short-term to access longer-term gain and play those underneath this stodgy, boring senior outfit of what we've been playing that might unlock something...your Amiss's (already in, granted), Sturts, Johnsons, Erasmus's...even a few wildcards like Kuek, Wagner, Emmett; Worner just to see if it provides something, anything...especially in our forward third, or cultivate a paradigm shift that blossoms into something that sees the potential of what we feel is elite talents in the waiting. Sound familiar, sound like a rebuild?! Maybe it's just not as complete as we thought? I'd say add to that through the draft, but we f**ed that up selling the farm on Jackson - who I still believe will be good, just was the wrong price at the wrong time for us...panicky Freo at its 'best'. Ironically, we all laughed at West Coast for doing the same with Kelly....and yet, look at us go! Anything you can do, we can do better right..?!?! I'd like that minimum of 4 Premierships though, I hate those tossers but at least from their perspective, they've got credits in the bank. We don't even have past glory to ruminate over with embarrassing glee!

I doubt it will happen whilst we have such stubborn, non-visionary and lacklustre figures at the helm, but all you can do is live in hope. Maybe one day the club will awaken from this perplexing slumber and rid us of the rot, but til then.....or maybe it's true, we are cursed?!?! They've tried in all their myriad, maddening ways to sell us their 'hopium' and it ain't a product worth buying anymore. Bring something different to the table, and let us see from there, because what we have right now is full of buyers remorse. CHANGE.......and only change, is necessary!

 

[apuchar]

Fremantle is getting bottled up trying to move the ball because our roaming talls aren't taking marks. It's the entire problem. We were poor at the contest in the first couple of weeks, that's better. We are still poor with our delivery inside fifty but a lot of that is due to the slower ball movement required because we need to chip it around so much due to previously aforementioned talls not taking the marks on the longer kicks, when the ball is finally going inside fifty it's throwing a free t-shirt into a crowd of hands up to catch it, they've all flooded back.

Talls like Darcy and Jackson take marks and the ball movement will look way faster, faster ball movement will make the forwards look like they have tonnes of space. Amiss and Frederick will light it up. It's the reason opposition clubs are targeting this part of our ball movement plan.

If that clicks, they are screwed. Absolutely screwed. Amiss, Switta or Frederick on the lead or back towards goal and it's over for the defender. Fremantle's major assets are the speed of those three forwards and ruck dominance. You counter that with hard contested ball and then covering the space to force a long kick down the line where you're blocking those marks.

It slows us down because it has to or we will win all the football games.

Surely if we can't always mark it, it would be good to win our fair share on the ground. We don't. The numbers aren't there and the longer the contest for the ball goes the less likely we are to win it.

 

[Taylor]

yeah, F/s favoured them massively but if we had not turned picks 5 and 6 (Rozee and King), into Lobb, Hogan, Sturt and change, we would not be talking about this.

I would go further, and say that instead of targeting players like Matera and co, we should have been looking at 2nd tiers comp like the cats did with Pods....

Do you want to pick some players right now that would make us better that aren't currently on an AFL list? Harley Bennell is one. Some might argue Jack Buller.

Hogan had big red flags but if he were still playing with us and at his ability, we wouldn't be having this conversation either.

If Rozee and King went home we would be having a discussion about why did we let WC sweep up the WA talent who wanted to come here while drafting interstate players only to lose them a few years later.

Fremantle needed a man bodied tall forward, it needed a couple, we still do, in that mid to late twenties age range. We needed them to be more mature than our midfielders who can compete at an elite level earlier in their career.

We still don't have them. We are going to have to trade for one if we can't get one via free agency.

We should be looking at Harry Himmelberg

 

[Taylor]

Surely if we can't always mark it, it would be good to win our fair share on the ground. We don't. The numbers aren't there and the longer the contest for the ball goes the less likely we are to win it.

If we can't win the mark we want to play like we did against the Eagles where we spoil it to the boundary for a stoppage, but we need to be on top of them for that not to be painful.

It all starts at the contest and clearance game. If we win that, we can stop trying to mark between the flank and centre where a turnover will kill us and play for a stoppage.

But we want the marks out of the talls and the problem goes away entirely.

 

[apuchar]

Do you want to pick some players right now that would make us better that aren't currently on an AFL list? Harley Bennell is one. Some might argue Jack Buller.

Hogan had big red flags but if he were still playing with us and at his ability, we wouldn't be having this conversation either.

If Rozee and King went home we would be having a discussion about why did we let WC sweep up the WA talent who wanted to come here while drafting interstate players only to lose them a few years later.

Fremantle needed a man bodied tall forward, it needed a couple, we still do, in that mid to late twenties age range. We needed them to be more mature than our midfielders who can compete at an elite level earlier in their career.

We still don't have them. We are going to have to trade for one if we can't get one via free agency.

We should be looking at Harry Himmelberg

We should be looking at Harry Himmelberg

Definitely worth a shot.

 

[Ge3ks]

I personally feel we need to throw the book at Picket and Logan Mcdonald.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Do you want to pick some players right now that would make us better that aren't currently on an AFL list? Harley Bennell is one. Some might argue Jack Buller.

Hogan had big red flags but if he were still playing with us and at his ability, we wouldn't be having this conversation either.

If Rozee and King went home we would be having a discussion about why did we let WC sweep up the WA talent who wanted to come here while drafting interstate players only to lose them a few years later.

Fremantle needed a man bodied tall forward, it needed a couple, we still do, in that mid to late twenties age range. We needed them to be more mature than our midfielders who can compete at an elite level earlier in their career.

We still don't have them. We are going to have to trade for one if we can't get one via free agency.

We should be looking at Harry Himmelberg

I am remember that Chris talked about Junior Rioli the year before he was picked, Tim Kelly was talked about for several years.

I had not heard about Lachie Schultz or Luke Ryan before they were picked, I just believe that is a higher chance of success, than drafting someone who has been tried at AFL level and has not made it.

If Rozee and King went home, then we would have got a good return for them.

We need many things, not just a tall forward. I don't think you through away a top 10 pick, just to fill a short term need.

 

[Taylor]

We should be looking at Harry Himmelberg

Definitely worth a shot.

If we were going down that path I would want to stalk him with some girlfriends around the town for a couple of months to see what he is actually like, because there is nothing close to the scrutiny a player will get in WA going on in NSW and we wouldn't have a clue based purely on released media reports.

Buying Himmelberg as a free agent would be the most important investment the club makes at a critical time, we couldn't afford for him to not to work out.

 

[apuchar]

If we can't win the mark we want to play like we did against the Eagles where we spoil it to the boundary for a stoppage, but we need to be on top of them for that not to be painful.

It all starts at the contest and clearance game. If we win that, we can stop trying to mark between the flank and centre where a turnover will kill us and play for a stoppage.

But we want the marks out of the talls and the problem goes away entirely.

A lot of other teams seem capable of winning from the fall of the ball without a stoppage. Not sure why we can't. Just watching casually, it looked like WC won about 95% of those contests. Much of it seems to start from behind the contest where we never have anyone and good ball winning and clever structure which even Justin complimented. We have decided fast burst or slow build up. Why not set up around the fall of the ball properly and make it an option. Much easier and quicker than slow build up which allows teams to flood back.

 

[Taylor]

I am remember that Chris talked about Junior Rioli the year before he was picked, Tim Kelly was talked about for several years.

I had not heard about Lachie Schultz or Luke Ryan before they were picked, I just believe that is a higher chance of success, than drafting someone who has been tried at AFL level and has not made it.

If Rozee and King went home, then we would have got a good return for them.

We need many things, not just a tall forward. I don't think you through away a top 10 pick, just to fill a short term need.

I'm curious what trade value you think Rozee and Ben King would have had moving from Fremantle to South Australia/Melbourne respectively?

Rioli and Kelly both had significant changes to their preparation and professionalism prior to their seasons leading to draft. If you were able to ensure that mental click into gear prior to their delivery of it, you'd make a fortune in value.

Similar with Jeremy McGovern by the way.

But we are discussing the success stories as if they are the rule, there are far more players who are too fat, too lazy, too interested in partying to make it at AFL level who are performing well enough the level below.

 

[Wilksyy]

I think our drafting from 2019 onwards has been pretty good.

If this place is a microcosm of your average Freo fan then no one should be surprised we went after Hogan and Lobb and I would wager 95% of you were fist-pumping when we got them. It didnt work out (for Hogan) move on.

 

[apuchar]

If we were going down that path I would want to stalk him with some girlfriends around the town for a couple of months to see what he is actually like, because there is nothing close to the scrutiny a player will get in WA going on in NSW and we wouldn't have a clue based purely on released media reports.

Buying Himmelberg as a free agent would be the most important investment the club makes at a critical time, we couldn't afford for him to not to work out.

We probably have the money, losing Lobb, Logue and Acres. Might be the only positive to come out of it. If some of our players can be bought, surely we can do the same.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I'm curious what trade value you think Rozee and Ben King would have had moving from Fremantle to South Australia/Melbourne respectively?

Rioli and Kelly both had significant changes to their preparation and professionalism prior to their seasons leading to draft. If you were able to ensure that mental click into gear prior to their delivery of it, you'd make a fortune in value.

Similar with Jeremy McGovern by the way.

But we are discussing the success stories as if they are the rule, there are far more players who are too fat, too lazy, too interested in partying to make it at AFL level who are performing well enough the level below.

Yes, agree. but I think the strike rate is better than getting non best 22 players from other teams. (Except rucks)

 

[Swiggy]

I personally feel we need to throw the book at Picket and Logan Mcdonald. Naughton for me just isnt gettable. Let Fyfe go to another club and Walters to retire. Use that cash to go after Picket and Mcdonald.

Frederick Mcdonald Sturt
Jackson Amiss Pickett

Nice dream… how do they get them?

 

[Taylor]

Yes, agree. but I think the strike rate is better than getting non best 22 players from other teams. (Except rucks)

I don't believe the success rate for picking state league players the year prior to them proving they are over their significant hurdle keeping them out of the AFL is less than the trading in of players from other teams.

As I said, that's heavily skewed by considering the options that were both selected and had enough of a career to be remembered.

 

[freo1997]

MSD.

Who do we want and what do we need?

 

[Taylor]

MSD.

Who do we want and what do we need?

Clean hands big bodied clearance mid with burst speed.
Tall marking target with endurance that can take a mark on transition play. (This one may be Corbett)

 

[Square Peg]

Fremantle is getting bottled up trying to move the ball because our roaming talls aren't taking marks. It's the entire problem. We were poor at the contest in the first couple of weeks, that's better. We are still poor with our delivery inside fifty but a lot of that is due to the slower ball movement required because we need to chip it around so much due to previously aforementioned talls not taking the marks on the longer kicks, when the ball is finally going inside fifty it's throwing a free t-shirt into a crowd of hands up to catch it, they've all flooded back.

Talls like Darcy and Jackson take marks and the ball movement will look way faster, faster ball movement will make the forwards look like they have tonnes of space. Amiss and Frederick will light it up. It's the reason opposition clubs are targeting this part of our ball movement plan.

If that clicks, they are screwed. Absolutely screwed. Amiss, Switta or Frederick on the lead or back towards goal and it's over for the defender. Fremantle's major assets are the speed of those three forwards and ruck dominance. You counter that with hard contested ball and then covering the space to force a long kick down the line where you're blocking those marks.

It slows us down because it has to or we will win all the football games.

I think this is partly true but I don't agree fully. It's still fundamentally saying the players are to blame. If only they could take a mark....

I have been racking my brains trying to come up with a logical explanation or unifying theme for how we play and I propose the following: The Jlo obsession with turnover.

Though I am sure what Jlo wants is players getting out the back for cheap goals as his main avenue to goal, I think this could be fundamentally based on his obsession with turnover as a prime determinant of outcome in the AFL game.

Last year the big change in our game, what turned us into a contender, was becoming the #1 team for points from turnover differential. So it's important and no doubt something every coach talks about. But I think this may now become our obsession and trying to capitalise on this as our strength has become our weakness, as commonly happens with obsessions

Hear me out and tell me if this makes any sense.

He's obsessed with not conceding turnovers, so the players are scared to do anything that will risk generating his number one hate and are taking easy options with the ball to make it someone else's problem

He's obsessed with trying to generate them, so he sets up his whole team with that as the primary goal, He plays forwards that generate pressure as their number one role, rather than scoring goals. Why do you think Banfield is perpetually picked over Sturt? Wingmen are picked for their defensive workrate and potential wingers like Worner are being played as defenders at Peel tto learn to generate turnover.

And then when we actually have the ball moving forward, he doesn't want separation and one on ones, because you can lose those and that's risking turnover. He wants the ball bombed in to multiple talls that all fly for the same ball to bring it to ground so we don't concede a turnover through an intercept mark, and instead of having enough crumbers there at their feet and guys running goalside he has a quota set back to again prevent gettiing caught out on turnover. Does "repeat entries" sound familiar? He would much rather have the ball kicked into I50 ten times and hope something happens to snag a goal than risk enough capital to try and score but have it come out quickly the other way if we don't.

He loves the idea of scoring goals by generating a defensive turnover and having guys run forward for cheapies out the back. Loves it. And under no circumstances wants it happening to us. Hates it. so he's built a whole game plan around it.

I don't know if this is true, there might be big holes in my logic, but somehting has to explain why a seemingly intelligent coach would set his teams up like this. He must be trying to achieve something by it and I thnk it's the points from turnover differential world title. It's not working. And it's why our skill errors seem to be magnified in their impact, since we can't afford them if your primary goal is to avoid turnover.

I would like our talls to take more marks but I am not convinces that is the 'entire problem' that you think it is.

 

[freo1997]

Clean hands big bodied clearance mid with burst speed.
Tall marking target with endurance that can take a mark on transition play. (This one may be Corbett)

We only have one pick ???

Anyone in the VFL knocking the door down?

 

[Docker82]

Pickett would cost us next year's first rounder, North's second and probably involves us finding another second rounder from somewhere. He's worth just as much as Jackson.

We can this say goodbye to any chance of improving other areas of our list without significantly weakening it elsewhere.

I'd rather keep the good players we have and see what we can do with the draft picks we have left. That may or may not include trading in slightly cheaper options.

 

[Ge3ks]

Clean hands big bodied clearance mid with burst speed.

So you mean a mature WAFL/VFL midfielder that is AFL ready? These guys make unicorns look common.