List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Jeremias]

I'm not saying he's top of the list, it was a specific point I brought up that was mentioned many times in the wake of O'Keeffe's signing.

The specific point is that he shouldn’t get a contract extension.

It’s irrelevant whether he’s top of the list or 5th on the list.

Repeat after me: it won’t happen.

As for the idea that he's #1 ruck, it's because Voss shifted priorities in terms of what we want out of a starting ruck. Let's see how the younger types adapt, instead of gripping for dear life to the one guy on our list who currently gets it done at the centre bounce.

He was #1 before Voss came on board too.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Yes, once in 2020 in the VFL, and once in 2021 in the AFL.

That being said, I don't think he's ever had more than 50% game time as a forward in any given match. It's always been an afterthought.

??

Every time he has played in the same side as Pittonet he has played majority forward.

 

[macky99]

The specific point is that he shouldn’t get a contract extension.

It’s irrelevant whether he’s top of the list or 5th on the list.

Repeat after me: it won’t happen.


He was #1 before Voss came on board too.

l believe right now the number 1 ruck spot is up for grabs, the past is irrelevant, Pitto has missed alot of footy, so let's see if his body holds up for a full season, & equally so let's see if TDK can elevate himself to the next level.

Pitto will get a contract extension without doubt.

 

[Jimmae]

I tend to agree with this. As much as I'm a fan of Cincotta at VFL level, I also see him as just a back up option in case of emergency. When Walsh returns, there's a chance that Doc may head down back anyway if he gets squeezed out the midfield group, and Boyd will also be back in the mix at some stage during the season.

The other point is at the end of the year, Philp will now likely be gone along with Ed, and Dow's tenure at Carlton in the balance. That's three of our mids potentially gone, which would only leave Carroll and an injury prone Cunners as our depth midfielders (unless I'm missing someone).

Personally, I'd like to see us acquire a young mid who missed out at the draft like a D’Aloia or Szybkowski as a free hit, and get a year's development into them like we've done with O'Keefe. We essentially traded out of this year's draft with the acquisition of Acres and Cowan with our 2nd and 3rd round picks, so it would kinda make sense if we decide to head that way.

Yeah IMO unless we sign some really dumb deals, there isn't a version of our 2023 off-season that doesn't involve our midfield depth disappearing, and I really want to see that happen on our terms for once.

While accepting that many see it differently, and that there's a good chance it won't go this way, here's how I would want to do it:

Delisted: Fogarty, Philp
Retired: E.Curnow (r)

Healthy trade/FA options: Dow, De Koning, Plowman, Owies, Cottrell (r)
Injury-prone trade/FA options: Kennedy, McGovern, Williams, Martin, Cuningham

Injury-prone delist options: Marchbank, Honey
Depth we can move on: Pittonet, Newman, S.Durdin (r)

My current preference: Fogarty, Philp, Owies, Kennedy, Pittonet, Plowman, Newman, Cottrell (r), E.Curnow (r)

Positional changes: De Koning (fwd/def), Kemp (mid/fwd), Akuei (fwd)

Trade/FA priority: ruck
Depth refresh: running defender
Draft priority: KPD/KPF, explosive clearance mid

I think that's an arrangement that should bolster our top 30 picks, and suits the 2023 draftee pool. By blood letting depth on pretty much every line and role, it allows us to grab talent without feeling inherently pressured into overpaying for a type of player.

I recognise that this likely creates the need for a new senior ruck, but I believe they're easy to acquire at a great talent level when you can guarantee first crack at the starting role, and we've seen that probably a dozen times in the last 3 seasons.

I also recognise that I'm probably cutting deeper than many would be comfortable with, and there are obviously a couple of names there that could be held onto if the opportunity isn't there in a single off-season, but I'm yet to have found one in recent memory.

Some potential acquisitions might feel like a sidegrade, but we have tactical weaknesses that can be better addressed with different playing styles and individual strengths.

The specific point is that he shouldn’t get a contract extension.

It’s irrelevant whether he’s top of the list or 5th on the list.

Repeat after me: it won’t happen.


He was #1 before Voss came on board too.

Repeat after me: that's horrific list management. He's not NicNat; you don't carry a decidedly average player for a few taps. He's regularly outclassed by quality rucks and quality midfields. Him being the starting ruck when they're both in the team has largely reflected his total lack of versatility.

I'm getting really tired of the delusional conversations we have year in and year out about very average players who have reached their ceiling (in this case, through the impact of chronic injuries).

You want him in round 1? Fine. You want him in long term planning if he doesn't change his output and actually appear in 75%+ of the games? Delusional.

This isn't the 90s: you need more from the ruck position than what he's providing. It was a problem even when we were firing.

??

Every time he has played in the same side as Pittonet he has played majority forward.

Centre bounce aside, pretty sure the ruck split has been around 60/40 when they've both played. It's been an absolute mess.

 

[Jeremias]

Repeat after me: that's horrific list management. He's not NicNat; you don't carry a decidedly average player for a few taps. He's regularly outclassed by quality rucks and quality midfields. Him being the starting ruck when they're both in the team has largely reflected his total lack of versatility.

And yet every club does it. Name just one club without a decidedly average ruck on their books in 2023 - I don't think you can.

He was flying early in 2022, not surprisingly so were we.

Him being #1 ruck when both he and TDK have been in the team has largely reflected the pecking order at that point in time. Despite being the far superior athlete, TDK has not yet been able to overtake Pittonet.

That may change in 2023 but it's a completely separate discussion.

I'm getting really tired of the delusional conversations we have year in and year out about very average players who have reached their ceiling (in this case, through the impact of chronic injuries).

So don't engage in them. But if you put something out there that people disagree with, they're not going to hold back just because you're tired of the discussion.

It also wasn't a discussion about his quality, you're shifting the goal posts there in a big way. Not once have I said he's anything above average, just that he has been (and IMO still is) our #1 ruck, and we're not going from that to without a contract in the matter of months.

You want him in round 1? Fine. You want him in long term planning if he doesn't change his output and actually appear in 75%+ of the games? Delusional.

Show me where I said that. Might I suggest you've just hit the very definition of delusional by suggesting that I have?

This isn't the 90s: you need more from the ruck position than what he's providing. It was a problem even when we were firing.

Absolutely, nowhere have I suggested otherwise.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

The other point is at the end of the year, Philp will now likely be gone along with Ed, and Dow's tenure at Carlton in the balance. That's three of our mids potentially gone, which would only leave Carroll and an injury prone Cunners as our depth midfielders (unless I'm missing someone).

Personally, I'd like to see us acquire a young mid who missed out at the draft like a D’Aloia or Szybkowski as a free hit, and get a year's development into them like we've done with O'Keefe. We essentially traded out of this year's draft with the acquisition of Acres and Cowan with our 2nd and 3rd round picks, so it would kinda make sense if we decide to head that way.

Expect to see us trade off next years 1st and 2nd to go all in on this year's draft. And if TDK does indeed leave, we will have an extremely good draft hand and will go hard for a few more mids.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

l believe right now the number 1 ruck spot is up for grabs, the past is irrelevant, Pitto has missed alot of footy, so let's see if his body holds up for a full season, & equally so let's see if TDK can elevate himself to the next level.

Pitto will get a contract extension without doubt.

Tough for TDK to become the number 1 whilst we don’t have another ready to go forward/ruck on the list. Pitto and Mirkov have 0 forward craft between them. If Lemmey comes on quickly things may change but he’s very raw.

I don’t think I could handle another 12 months of Cripps and JSOS getting belted at the clearance.

 

[thylacine60]

Expect to see us trade off next years 1st and 2nd to go all in on this year's draft. And if TDK does indeed leave, we will have an extremely good draft hand and will go hard for a few more mids.

bang!

 

[no fate]

Yeah IMO unless we sign some really dumb deals, there isn't a version of our 2023 off-season that doesn't involve our midfield depth disappearing, and I really want to see that happen on our terms for once.

While accepting that many see it differently, and that there's a good chance it won't go this way, here's how I would want to do it:

Delisted: Fogarty, Philp
Retired: E.Curnow (r)

Healthy trade/FA options: Dow, De Koning, Plowman, Owies, Cottrell (r)
Injury-prone trade/FA options: Kennedy, McGovern, Williams, Martin, Cuningham

Injury-prone delist options: Marchbank, Honey
Depth we can move on: Pittonet, Newman, S.Durdin (r)

My current preference: Fogarty, Philp, Owies, Kennedy, Pittonet, Plowman, Newman, Cottrell (r), E.Curnow (r)

Positional changes: De Koning (fwd/def), Kemp (mid/fwd), Akuei (fwd)

Trade/FA priority: ruck
Depth refresh: running defender
Draft priority: KPD/KPF, explosive clearance mid

I think that's an arrangement that should bolster our top 30 picks, and suits the 2023 draftee pool. By blood letting depth on pretty much every line and role, it allows us to grab talent without feeling inherently pressured into overpaying for a type of player.

I recognise that this likely creates the need for a new senior ruck, but I believe they're easy to acquire at a great talent level when you can guarantee first crack at the starting role, and we've seen that probably a dozen times in the last 3 seasons.

I also recognise that I'm probably cutting deeper than many would be comfortable with, and there are obviously a couple of names there that could be held onto if the opportunity isn't there in a single off-season, but I'm yet to have found one in recent memory.

Some potential acquisitions might feel like a sidegrade, but we have tactical weaknesses that can be better addressed with different playing styles and individual strengths.

Repeat after me: that's horrific list management. He's not NicNat; you don't carry a decidedly average player for a few taps. He's regularly outclassed by quality rucks and quality midfields. Him being the starting ruck when they're both in the team has largely reflected his total lack of versatility.

I'm getting really tired of the delusional conversations we have year in and year out about very average players who have reached their ceiling (in this case, through the impact of chronic injuries).

You want him in round 1? Fine. You want him in long term planning if he doesn't change his output and actually appear in 75%+ of the games? Delusional.

This isn't the 90s: you need more from the ruck position than what he's providing. It was a problem even when we were firing.

Centre bounce aside, pretty sure the ruck split has been around 60/40 when they've both played. It's been an absolute mess.

I don't mind most of your ideas mate, but you seem to have lost your mind with this idea that we should or will trade Kennedy.

 

[Arr0w]

This is getting interesting

 

[thylacine60]

I fear jimster now includes me in his worthless ingrate cohort......... I held out as long as I could but there it is.........

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

When are we looking to trade Cripps because his lack of leg speed and poor running gait?

 

[thylacine60]

When are we looking to trade Cripps because his lack of leg speed and poor running gait?

saved himself with more polished media performances.........

 

[BigFrizz36]

Imagine, if you will, going through your whole school life 100% convinced that you are the smartest kid in the school.

Despite getting average results in every exam and all the other kids telling you that a fair percentage of the things that you say are wrong.

In spite of this said example will be prepared to go to the grave believing that they know more than everyone else, including people who are paid as experts in their field.

I wonder what that would feel like?

 

[CJMB]

I don't mind most of your ideas mate, but you seem to have lost your mind with this idea that we should or will trade Kennedy.

FWIW Kennedy’s a free agent for life, whenever he’s out of contract.

 

[Jimmae]

Restore my post without the final comment then, which was a fair critique on the heavy-handed rhetoric and obtuse commentary made in the post I was replying to.

Not bothering with repeating myself.

 

[Jimmae]

I don't mind most of your ideas mate, but you seem to have lost your mind with this idea that we should or will trade Kennedy.

I haven't, I just have a different opinion: for all he can football he is still too* often a liability when we don't have the football, particularly any time from 5s after a ruck contest onwards.

When are we looking to trade Cripps because his lack of leg speed and poor running gait?

Cripps isn't slow. Has always been quick over the first 5-10, and has worked on his running well over the years.

Why do you keep trying to hoodwink people for like farming? Are you 15, and think this stuff is relevant? Are you still mad that I find your underdeveloped and regurgitated opinions underwhelming and sometimes laughable?

Do you have any substantial viewpoint to make, or are you just going to snipe and produce the forum equivalent of subtweets on a post that 300 people will read? That's kinda sad.

 

[bluesDeluxe]

Expect to see us trade off next years 1st and 2nd to go all in on this year's draft. And if TDK does indeed leave, we will have an extremely good draft hand and will go hard for a few more mids.

Will be hard to find clubs willing to trade this year's picks for next

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I haven't, I just have a different opinion: for all he can football he is still to often a liability when we don't have the football, particularly any time from 5s after a ruck contest onwards.


Cripps isn't slow. Has always been quick over the first 5-10, and has worked on his running well over the years.

Why do you keep trying to hoodwink people for like farming? Are you 15, and think this stuff is relevant?

Hoodwink people for like farming? What the hell are you on about? I just think you've completely lost the plot.

 

[Jimmae]

Hoodwink people for like farming? What the hell are you on about? I just think you've completely lost the plot.

Buddy, you just made a completely laughable point that had zero regard for my opinion on anyone and anything, all while puffing your chest out in the most high school way possible.

You inserted yourself because you felt you could kick someone around while getting some attention. It's sad, log off. Engage in the discussion or be genuinely funny, don't give me the nuff nuff version of amateur stand-up.

Imagine heckling when you can't even follow the discussion properly. Yikes

 

[Arr0w]

So in summary, the club should rid themselves of a number of players, which definitely should include Pitto, Kennedy, Cotts, Newman, Plow?

Can't see all those names gone, but look forward to the weekly ins and outs

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Will be hard to find clubs willing to trade this year's picks for next

Atm we have picks 10,60,66 & 84…

So we don’t have much to offer up for any amount of points packaged up in a deal swap atm, certain clubs with multiple firsts are sometimes your only chance as well as a club/s with a highly rated father/son which a points package normally works out better in their favour…

Obviously a lot changes by the time the trade period then national draft comes along, clubs can get very creative provided they have the right chips & collateral to provide for all parties to be happy…

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Will be hard to find clubs willing to trade this year's picks for next

No it won't

 

[SurreyBlue]

You'd think over the next few years the following OOC players would be under immense pressure to
1. Keep their list spot or
2. Cement a spot in our best team...

2023
Keep a List Spot
Marchbank, Cuningham, Akeui, E.Curnow, Honey, Fogarty, Dow & Philp

Cement a Spot
Kemp & Silvagni

2024
Keep a List Spot
Mirkov, Carroll & Owies

Cement a Spot
Martin, O'Brien & Cottrell

Can't agree with the above mentioned in RED.

 

[Wickzki]

2024
Keep a List Spot
Mirkov, Carroll & Owies

Cement a Spot
Martin, O'Brien & Cottrell

Think you've got Carroll and one of O'Brien and Cottrell in the wrong spot.

Keen to see how much more improvement both LOB and Cotters have.

Not sold on either being best 22 in a premiership team but you do need your 23-30ish ranked foot soldiers who can regularly carry a load to get you there.

.if Jack Martin is healthy he's best 22 all day. But the question is can you carry someone likely to play 10-15 games a season?