List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[BRADLESTICKS]

Hewett one positioned? Which one position is that? Hewett plays as an on baller in our side, played regularly as a tagged and off half back for the Swans.

Hewett is a slow accountable inside midfielder he would get exposed playing halfback now with most teams playing speedy pressure half forwards.
Against the saints this week he would have to play on Gresham, Higgins or Butler I can’t see that working, If you play him as a defensive half forward we make an already slow forwardline slower and let’s be honest he is not kicking or setting up goals nor will he put on any chase down pressure which most modern forward lines are built around.

 

[Jeremias]

Laughable for you to call it irrelevant. Plenty of great players make the squad and just miss out - see Kreuzer and Weitering.

I’ll ask again, what makes the 40th player worthy of celebration, but the 41st not?

It’s a ridiculous number pulled out of nowhere. It means nothing.

Look at the 2022 selection panel:

Gil McLachlan
Kane Cornes
Glen Jakovich
Chris Johnson
Cameron Ling
Brad Scott
Gerard Healy
Nick Riewoldt
Jude Bolton
Andrew Dillon

Forget my opinion, the question is why do you value your own opinion so much less than the opinions of these guys?

Some are ex players who can’t string a sentence together, some are administrators.

The only one I’d give any thought to is Brad Scott, but to each their own.

Hill is a better kick and gets more run so his impact per possession would exceed Williams.

Dangerous statement to make this week but Hill is vastly overrated.

I wouldn’t want him anywhere near my club.

Multi positioned? He's played maybe a handful of games competently in the midfield. Hes a hbf though.

Nah that’s just not correct.

He is primarily a running defender but has played in all thirds of the ground - and done so to great effect.

The more you try and double down on this strange call the more unconvincing it is.

Cool. I’m not trying to convince you.

Hopper is a different type of player, inside and big bodied, but he'd likely command more at the trade table than williams. Fine if you prefer Williams on skillset but thats not 'better' particularly when considering contract values.

Contract value is hardly relevant. Unless you also want to suggest Eric Hipwood is one of the best players in the game?

Also not sure why it’s relevant that he plays a different position.

Willams was offered overs because it cost us no draft picks. Same as Martin. No shame in admitting it.

Not sure I’ve suggested otherwise?

 

[thylacine60]

every morning before I leave home I check under the car for the exploding post.............beware the exploded post...........

 

[Juddernaut08]

I’ll ask again, what makes the 40th player worthy of celebration, but the 41st not?

It’s a ridiculous number pulled out of nowhere. It means nothing.

Look at the 2022 selection panel:

Gil McLachlan
Kane Cornes
Glen Jakovich
Chris Johnson
Cameron Ling
Brad Scott
Gerard Healy
Nick Riewoldt
Jude Bolton
Andrew Dillon

Forget my opinion, the question is why do you value your own opinion so much less than the opinions of these guys?

Some are ex players who can’t string a sentence together, some are administrators.

The only one I’d give any thought to is Brad Scott, but to each their own.


Dangerous statement to make this week but Hill is vastly overrated.

I wouldn’t want him anywhere near my club.



Nah that’s just not correct.

He is primarily a running defender but has played in all thirds of the ground - and done so to great effect.



Cool. I’m not trying to convince you.



Contract value is hardly relevant. Unless you also want to suggest Eric Hipwood is one of the best players in the game?

Also not sure why it’s relevant that he plays a different position.


Not sure I’ve suggested otherwise?

You've mentioned 40th vs 41st several times. Not much difference, but how do you know that was Williams? He might not even have been the 100th player.

The whole discussion was about contract lengths - so it's relevant. If Hipwood is being overpaid that could be a bad contract too. Doesn't make Williams not a bad contract.

I think it's important to value our own opinion, but also test that against stats and other opinions to get a more accurate view.

Hill's kick may be overrated, but he's still better than Williams.

 

[Jeremias]

You've mentioned 40th vs 41st several times. Not much difference, but how do you know that was Williams? He might not even have been the 100th player.

I don't know it was Williams. I never said it was him.

Whether he was 41st or 51st or 251st isn't the point at all. And it's more a general comment than one specific to Williams anyway.

I can stomach an argument to say Player X is better than Player Y because he made 1 AA side but to use the AA squad of 40 to do so is a joke.

The whole discussion was about contract lengths - so it's relevant. If Hipwood is being overpaid that could be a bad contract too. Doesn't make Williams not a bad contract.

Length =/= value

Value is not relevant to the discussion, and again, I have already mentioned a number of times the Williams contract was a bad one. Did you miss that?

I think it's important to value our own opinion, but also test that against stats and other opinions to get a more accurate view.

Watch them play and form your own view. If that leads you to thinking Hopper is a better footballer than Williams there's nothing wrong with that.

If you're seeing Gil McLachlan say it and you believe it to therefore be true, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Stats. Ah yes, stats.
Stats tell us Ben Brown is a better key forward than Harry McKay - both this year and over the course of their careers. I assume you have no issue with that?

Hill's kick may be overrated, but he's still better than Williams.

I disagree. Just do not rate at all.

 

[thylacine60]

 

[Juddernaut08]

I don't know it was Williams. I never said it was him.

Whether he was 41st or 51st or 251st isn't the point at all. And it's more a general comment than one specific to Williams anyway.

I can stomach an argument to say Player X is better than Player Y because he made 1 AA side but to use the AA squad of 40 to do so is a joke.


Length =/= value

Value is not relevant to the discussion, and again, I have already mentioned a number of times the Williams contract was a bad one. Did you miss that?



Watch them play and form your own view. If that leads you to thinking Hopper is a better footballer than Williams there's nothing wrong with that.

If you're seeing Gil McLachlan say it and you believe it to therefore be true, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Stats. Ah yes, stats.
Stats tell us Ben Brown is a better key forward than Harry McKay - both this year and over the course of their careers. I assume you have no issue with that?


I disagree. Just do not rate at all.

Why is it a joke to look at AA squad appearances? Not saying it is definitive - but it's a relevant achievement we can mention which distinguishes them. It shows that in his best season, Hopper was considered approximately a top 40 player...Williams has not reached those heights. Hopper is also more consistent.

You brought up 40 v 41 so if you don't think it's Williams - why did you bring it up?

You like to isolate and criticize each point, but they should be viewed together. Stats + eye test + consensus view. Don't take them in isolation.

You seem to be grasping at straws now. IMO it's an incorrect call to say Williams is 'clearly better' than Hopper and Hill. Happy for you to disagree, but you're likely in the minority.

 

[Jeremias]

Why is it a joke to look at AA squad appearances? Not saying it is definitive - but it's a relevant achievement we can mention which distinguishes them. It shows that in his best season, Hopper was considered approximately a top 40 player...Williams has not reached those heights. Hopper is also more consistent.

You brought up 40 v 41 so if you don't think it's Williams - why did you bring it up?

Because the AA squad is a joke. It can be argued the team is too but if you want to overstate its importance, all power to you.

That you are focussed on the number (ie. 40 v 41) tells me you've missed the point entirely. Which is fine.

You like to isolate and criticize each point, but they should be viewed together. Stats + eye test + consensus view. Don't take them in isolation.

I like to respond to each point.

How often do we need to see cases of stats being misleading before we sit back and think, hold on, maybe these aren't relevant or presented in the manner they should be?

As for consensus view...yeah I'm going to let that one go through to the keeper. All I'll say is perhaps have a think about who is in that consensus before you decide you're going to jump onto that particular wagon.

You seem to be grasping at straws now. IMO it's an incorrect call to say Williams is 'clearly better' than Hopper and Hill. Happy for you to disagree, but you're likely in the minority.

Grasping at straws? Please.

Isn't the use of a completely arbitrary and frankly meaningless accolade to argue for one over the other far closer to the definition of clutching at straws?

 

[Juddernaut08]

Because the AA squad is a joke. It can be argued the team is too but if you want to overstate its importance, all power to you.

That you are focussed on the number (ie. 40 v 41) tells me you've missed the point entirely. Which is fine.


I like to respond to each point.

How often do we need to see cases of stats being misleading before we sit back and think, hold on, maybe these aren't relevant or presented in the manner they should be?

As for consensus view...yeah I'm going to let that one go through to the keeper. All I'll say is perhaps have a think about who is in that consensus before you decide you're going to jump onto that particular wagon.


Grasping at straws? Please.

Isn't the use of a completely arbitrary and frankly meaningless accolade to argue for one over the other far closer to the definition of clutching at straws?

Youve tried to discount AA squad appearances, stats and consistency when determining a better player.

I suspect you are too stubborn to see a different point of view that contradicts your original statement so let's just agree to disagree.

I rate your moderating work, just think it's a bizarre and completely unsubstantiated perception of these players that you have.

 

[Jeremias]

Youve tried to discount AA squad appearances, stats and consistency when determining a better player.

AA squad appearances - Yes. It's a joke of a metric.

Stats - Very important but equally as easy to misinterpret or take out of context. You haven't even put any forward to discuss, so I'm not sure what you were expecting.

Consistency - Huh? Where did I do that?

I suspect you are too stubborn to see a different point of view that contradicts your original statement so let's just agree to disagree.

I see the different view point. I just don't agree with it and I've said exactly why.

Is it fair to say you're stubborn too because you don't see the different view point to your own?

I rate your moderating work, just think it's a bizarre and completely unsubstantiated perception of these players that you have.

Yes, it's completely unsubstantiated if you ignore the commentary around why I believe what I believe.

 

[Juddernaut08]

AA squad appearances - Yes. It's a joke of a metric.

Stats - Very important but equally as easy to misinterpret or take out of context. You haven't even put any forward to discuss, so I'm not sure what you were expecting.

Consistency - Huh? Where did I do that?


I see the different view point. I just don't agree with it and I've said exactly why.

Is it fair to say you're stubborn too because you don't see the different view point to your own?


Yes, it's completely unsubstantiated if you ignore the commentary around why I believe what I believe.

I have already said the players have diff strengths so I can see how you would argue Williams is better. However of the 3 players it's nonsense to say he's CLEARLY better.

Your inability to understand why it's not clear cut is stubborn.

 

[Jeremias]

Your inability to understand why it's not clear cut is stubborn.

As is refusing to answer any questions in a post you've quoted, just quietly.

 

[Juddernaut08]

As is refusing to answer any questions in a post you've quoted, just quietly.

Fair enough.

RE: Consistency - my mistake, you didn't actually say you don't rate it. I said the others were more durable but you didn't respond to the durable point.

RE: Stubborn - I said I did see your reasons for why you could argue Williams as 'better'. I just said the fact that the others have other points in their favour (and that the majority would disagree with you) means it's incorrect to say Williams is 'clearly better'. In essence I can see why you prefer him, just disagree that it's clear cut because of the contradicting arguments.

 

[CJMB]

No Oppo Supporters - Thunderdome Debate Thread - Two Bluebaggers enter, two Bluebaggers leave (We're not savages you know)

We will let the mods call it, given you are void of any evidence or facts

www.bigfooty.com

 

[gbatman]

Our midfield is a large part of whether we do well or not.It’s struggled from round 1 and on the weekend was exposed badly.It’s a bit one paced a lot like ports was.Inject some pace (Rozee/Butters) and it gives us a different look.

I’m confident they will improve but the coaching staff need a plan B as it seems teams have worked out our weapons and that goes for CC and HM.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

We might have the players if they are all fit. Again comes down to can we afford to have Docherty go into the midfield and Will Dow come on at the level.

We have seen what happens when Docherty goes into the middle during games, we are a different team, we go up a level. Bring in two powerful runners who can play and boom, that's us away.

The defence though is also another issue. It gave us nothing against the Crows. It had nothing to give, Saad became a lone hand and low and behold was injured.

Last year when Williams, Saad and Docherty were all up and going we were a better team, a level above. We need Williams back fit next year. Saad fit and we need some rebounding defenders to come on. Boyd and Cincotta coming on would be the making of us.

Some quality quick onballers, a quality rebounding defender or two and a really good smaller forward who can play half forward and go on the ball would make us. These are our biggest needs.

 

[Ash24]

Toby McLean

16

Toby Mclean

Age

29

Ht

181cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

9.0

3star

HB

10.7

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.4

4star

D

15.5

4star

K

6.5

3star

HB

9.0

4star

M

1.3

1star

T

3.5

4star

CL

2.0

4star

D

16.8

4star

K

8.2

4star

HB

8.6

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.8

4star

CL

0.8

3star

anyone?

 

[DangerousD]

Why is it a joke to look at AA squad appearances? Not saying it is definitive - but it's a relevant achievement we can mention which distinguishes them. It shows that in his best season, Hopper was considered approximately a top 40 player...Williams has not reached those heights. Hopper is also more consistent.

You brought up 40 v 41 so if you don't think it's Williams - why did you bring it up?

You like to isolate and criticize each point, but they should be viewed together. Stats + eye test + consensus view. Don't take them in isolation.

You seem to be grasping at straws now. IMO it's an incorrect call to say Williams is 'clearly better' than Hopper and Hill. Happy for you to disagree, but you're likely in the minority.

Forget AA squads even though I think it’s a valid metric, has Williams ever won a best and fairest? The answer is no, been second, no again, what about third, no again. His best finish if I’m not mistaken is 5th

 

[Beyond Blue]

Toby McLean anyone?

I don’t mind him and he fits a need being able to play half forward but hasn’t he had a couple ACL injuries?
I think having good durability needs to be one of the biggest thing our recruiter should be looking for in potential recruits.
We don’t have a track record of being able to rehabilitate injury prone types so we should stay away from those types.

 

[TENACIOUS]

The trio of Lemmey, O'Keeffe and Binns...

Are the most excited I've been in a bunch of kids in a long, long, time...
If they can make it at AFL level in the future, their type of player have the ability to transform our best 22...

Lemmey > Silvagni
O'Keeffe > Pittonet
Binns > Fisher

 

[teddy-hopkins]

So you would be more happy to risk losing one/both of them to a long term deal - say 9 years at the swans to ensure that we didnt go over the 5 year mark?

You do realise that the club factors in the chance of their output diminishing in (say) years 6 & 7 in the contract amount. So say we think that they are worth $900k for 5 years and $600k for the last two years then that is how the deal is done- although it may be structured differently for salary cap purposes.

Agree - the only way to keep a big group of stars together is by offering long term deals. They can get so much more by leaving - the only way we can keep them is by offering a different type of security which is the longer term deal.

The player sacrifices money he could have gotten elsewhere and the club takes a bit of a punt on their body holding up into their 30s.

It is good list management in my view.

The alternative is to lose a pillar of your whole list build which is definitely NOT good list management. You're just a feeder club to all others in that scenario (GWS).

 

[teddy-hopkins]

The trio of Lemmey, O'Keeffe and Binns...

Are the most excited I've been in a bunch of kids in a long, long, time...
If they can make it at AFL level in the future, their type of player have the ability to transform our best 22...

Lemmey > Silvagni
O'Keeffe > Pittonet
Binns > Fisher

They look good but sitting on a combined total of zero career games. Let's pump the brakes a bit on them being better than Jack, etc.

 

[Coona Blues]

The trio of Lemmey, O'Keeffe and Binns...

Are the most excited I've been in a bunch of kids in a long, long, time...
If they can make it at AFL level in the future, their type of player have the ability to transform our best 22...

Lemmey > Silvagni
O'Keeffe > Pittonet
Binns > Fisher

Hopeful on all.
Binns needs a big body of work for mine. Signs are great, but needs a thorough grounding in a variety of roles. Wing primarily, high half forward, pressure forward, inside mid and possibly half back.

Sure we can argue Dutchy came straight in, but was a need and more ready to go. Binns has many similar traits, but is not quite as instinctive and disposal needs some work. I will say, Binns has been a bloke at junior level to bite off some daring attempts with mixed results. It is a fine line between improving decision making and removing much needed dare. I see him spending the majority of the season developing in the twos. Hollands and Acres have the wings tied up for now, and we have a couple of other more experienced goers coming back soon.

Binns should not be pigeon holed on to a wing just yet. I am sure Dutchy will ultimately end up in the engine room, making some room. We also likely have the Camporeale boys integrating soon enough. We have too many players who are one position or bust. Loving the development of Cottrell “recently” expanding roles, as opposed to LOB who always reverts back to the wing. We need dramatically more flexibility, I reckon Binns can offer some.

Lemmey and O’Keeffe are both excellent prospects, but in fairness, will be vying for the same role. Very hard to see both co-habiting in the same team while Harry and Charlie are in their primes. Hudson is the classic second ruck prospect. Combative and capable, but it would be a stretch to suggest he will become the number one for mine. They more and more tot 205cm. Has a superior conversion rate with his set shots, which is a major plus.

Lemmey at the moment is a talented young try hard. Plenty to work with, but leading patterns need work as does some decision making. Needs to become more instinctive. May well be he is actually better suited up the ground. A couple of cameos rucking and behind the ball have been impressive. Goes from overthinking (imo) to see ball get ball, hit the contest. Plenty to play out, but a hell of a lot to work with. Has time, hate the posters suggesting he is ready to step up, would set him back enormously.

Just quietly, we shouldn’t be in a hurry to replace Pitto. Criminally under rated by some. Has struggled since the PCL, we need to get him fit again. His value around the contest is under sold. TDK is the highlights reel who is not developing as hoped. So want him to step up.

 

[Burgers45]

Just read in todays HUN that by arrangement with the Bendigo Pioneers, Harley Reid is going to play a few games with our VFL team. Unfortunately it will be the only chance he will have to ever pull on the famous cfc emblazoned navy blue guernsey. He'll go No.1 in this year's draft.

 

[skadoosh]

Just read in todays HUN that by arrangement with the Bendigo Pioneers, Harley Reid is going to play a few games with our VFL team. Unfortunately it will be the only chance he will have to ever pull on the famous cfc emblazoned navy blue guernsey.

That's a very pessimistic view. If we lose every game for the rest of the season then Reid will be in the Navy Blue for life!

 

[RPCB]

That's a very pessimistic view. If we lose every game for the rest of the season then Reid will be in the Navy Blue for life!

I would be genuinely shocked if West Coast win 3 games this year, so the Round 1 draw has screwed us.