List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[BRADLESTICKS]

Not a fair comparison for a number of reasons;

1) In which year did Selwood and Hawkins sign their big contract(s)? I can't recall off the top of my head, but I'd wager a significant amount that it was before these long-term deals became commonplace.

2) 29/30?
Cripps was 26 and has since won the Brownlow
Curnow was 25 and has since won the Coleman
Harry was 24 and had just won the Coleman




Hewett? Yeah, this is recency bias.

Has been down this year - probably largely due to injury - but he was worth every bit of that last year.
In fact I recall that deal being queried at the time and those who queried it were rightly ridiculed weekly, with George having a terrific year and playing a huge part in the complete transformation of our midfield.

If you really think George is easily replaceable, you are simply ignoring what he adds to the team, or forgetting what the midfield was like before his arrival.

1) I’m just using Selwood and Hawkins as an example there are many others but it’s well known they took unders through their careers and rarely waited until the years their contract was up to sign long term deals.

2) Cripps is a star but the position he plays and the smashing his body takes the end comes very quickly for these types of players Voss and Ratten are perfect examples of this.

3) Charlie and Harry have both had major injury issues throughout their careers having them signed up for 7/8 years is way overboard if they are not happy to stay loyal with say a 4/5 year deal have the courage to let them go, look at the ridiculous price Fremantle paid for Jackson no player is irreplaceable.

4) Hewitt had a solid year last season but Sydney new what they were doing letting him go, they new he had back problems, they new he was slow one positioned and they needed to create midfield space for Warner, Rowbottom, florent and others to thrive, reality is Hewitt wouldn’t get a game In half the afl teams at the moment, look at Matt crouch, jarrod lyons and other slow one position players who are equal or better than Hewitt who don’t get games for their respective teams.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Think he is clearly better than 4

Hopper
Young
Hill
Ellis

Would take him ahead of one or two others as well albeit less clear cut.

Clearly better than all 4 of these guys?

Hopper - has made AA squad recently. I'd guess most would say Hopper is better but in any case, there's no way you could say Williams is 'clearly better'.
Young - agreed
Hill - very good runner/user, has played 19/20+ games in most seasons. I'd guess most would say Hill is better but in any case, there's no way you could say Williams is 'clearly better'.
Ellis - agreed, though output at their new clubs is pretty similar and GC do dumb deals

 

[I bleed Blue]

Hewett the new wipping boy after a couple of quiet games.

People quickly forget he was the recruit of the year last year.

Class player. He will be fine

 

[Juddernaut08]

1) I’m just using Selwood and Hawkins as an example there are many others but it’s well known they took unders through their careers and rarely waited until the years their contract was up to sign long term deals.

2) Cripps is a star but the position he plays and the smashing his body takes the end comes very quickly for these types of players Voss and Ratten are perfect examples of this.

3) Charlie and Harry have both had major injury issues throughout their careers having them signed up for 7/8 years is way overboard if they are not happy to stay loyal with say a 4/5 year deal have the courage to let them go, look at the ridiculous price Fremantle paid for Jackson no player is irreplaceable.

4) Hewitt had a solid year last season but Sydney new what they were doing letting him go, they new he had back problems, they new he was slow one positioned and they needed to create midfield space for Warner, Rowbottom, florent and others to thrive, reality is Hewitt wouldn’t get a game In half the afl teams at the moment, look at Matt crouch, jarrod lyons and other slow one position players who are equal or better than Hewitt who don’t get games for their respective teams.

Cripps - he just won the brownlow. Even if he only has until 30 before his body breaks down it's worth it for one of the best players in the comp.

Charlie - we took a gamble and as others have said, paid less traded off for higher contract

Harry - what major injury concerns?

 

[Juddernaut08]

Hewett the new wipping boy after a couple of quiet games.

People quickly forget he was the recruit of the year last year.

Class player. He will be fine

Don't think anyone is hating on him.

Calling it out as a poor selection because he's not playing anywhere like he was when healthy is not whipping. Ed still gets more critiques despite outperforming Hewett.

 

[Jeremias]

1) I’m just using Selwood and Hawkins as an example there are many others but it’s well known they took unders through their careers and rarely waited until the years their contract was up to sign long term deals.

How many players in their prime sign short term deals?

If you are purely talking money, from memory it was also heavily reported at the time that all three left money on the table.

2) Cripps is a star but the position he plays and the smashing his body takes the end comes very quickly for these types of players Voss and Ratten are perfect examples of this.

Voss and Ratten who retired how long ago exactly? The game has changed significantly since both retired, as has the industry as a whole.

3) Charlie and Harry have both had major injury issues throughout their careers having them signed up for 7/8 years is way overboard if they are not happy to stay loyal with say a 4/5 year deal have the courage to let them go, look at the ridiculous price Fremantle paid for Jackson no player is irreplaceable.

Hold on a second. Luke Jackson? 21 year old, 52 game player Luke Jackson?

Why are you comparing him to Charlie and Harry?

4) Hewitt had a solid year last season but Sydney new what they were doing letting him go, they new he had back problems, they new he was slow one positioned and they needed to create midfield space for Warner, Rowbottom, florent and others to thrive, reality is Hewitt wouldn’t get a game In half the afl teams at the moment, look at Matt crouch, jarrod lyons and other slow one position players who are equal or better than Hewitt who don’t get games for their respective teams.

No sorry. This is all recency bias again.

"Solid" is selling Hewett well short, he was significantly better than that. Had a massive impact on the midfield and the team as a whole.

You want to talk reality, the reality is clubs don't fall for recency bias nor are they as emotionally driven as supporters often tend to be.

Comparing Hewett to Lyons/Crouch? Tell us you didn't see George play for Sydney without actually telling us. Regularly contributed to the Swans across the park rather than purely through the middle.

If you want to compare Lyons and Crouch with a Carlton player, the comparison is Paddy Dow who can't break into the senior side primarily due to lacking a secondary position.

Hewett would get a game in every team in the competition when fully fit. Yes, even Sydney.

 

[Jeremias]

Clearly better than all 4 of these guys?

Hopper - has made AA squad recently. I'd guess most would say Hopper is better but in any case, there's no way you could say Williams is 'clearly better'.
Young - agreed
Hill - very good runner/user, has played 19/20+ games in most seasons. I'd guess most would say Hill is better but in any case, there's no way you could say Williams is 'clearly better'.
Ellis - agreed, though output at their new clubs is pretty similar and GC do dumb deals

Yes, I have Williams clearly better than those 4.

Don't really care about AA squads or durability for the sake of the discussion around who is the better footballer, for varying reasons.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Yes, I have Williams clearly better than those 4.

Don't really care about AA squads or durability for the sake of the discussion around who is the better footballer, for varying reasons.

'Better footballer' is hard to define. When determining a footballer's contract value, achievements/output (AA squad) and durability surely are relevant.

In any case I'm not all that enthralled with either Hopper or Hill. I just think you'd be in the minority to say Williams is 'clearly better' than them.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Cripps - he just won the brownlow. Even if he only has until 30 before his body breaks down it's worth it for one of the best players in the comp.

Charlie - we took a gamble and as others have said, paid less traded off for higher contract

Harry - what major injury concerns?

Cripps

How many players in their prime sign short term deals?

If you are purely talking money, from memory it was also heavily reported at the time that all three left money on the table.



Voss and Ratten who retired how long ago exactly? The game has changed significantly since both retired, as has the industry as a whole.



Hold on a second. Luke Jackson? 21 year old, 52 game player Luke Jackson?

Why are you comparing him to Charlie and Harry?


No sorry. This is all recency bias again.

"Solid" is selling Hewett well short, he was significantly better than that. Had a massive impact on the midfield and the team as a whole.

You want to talk reality, the reality is clubs don't fall for recency bias nor are they as emotionally driven as supporters often tend to be.

Comparing Hewett to Lyons/Crouch? Tell us you didn't see George play for Sydney without actually telling us. Regularly contributed to the Swans across the park rather than purely through the middle.

If you want to compare Lyons and Crouch with a Carlton player, the comparison is Paddy Dow who can't break into the senior side primarily due to lacking a secondary position.

Hewett would get a game in every team in the competition when fully fit. Yes, even Sydney.

Signing a 4/5 year deal is not a short term contract for a player in their prime in my eyes.

The Voss/Ratten comparison was because they played a physical style similar to Cripps and in the afl today there are maybe 1 or 2 others who cop the battering Cripps cops week in week out, but In saying that Cripps deal doesn’t bother me as much as some other deals because at least he has earned it.

I wasn’t comparing Jackson to Charlie and Harry as players our boys are miles ahead the comparison was about the ransom Melbourne got in a trade for him. Absolutely we should’ve tried best to sign Charlie and Harry but on our terms a 5 year deal is more than fair for these two and if they want to leave the compensation would be enormous.

crouch is a best and fairest winner and lyons has been just as consistent as Hewitt throughout his career.

Hewitt in his younger days could play a little half forward nowadays he’s too slow to play half forward also too slow for the backline and offers no run or foot skills coming out of defence.

 

[BigFrizz36]

So it's a "bad" thing to sign up the most recent brownlow medallist and the last 2 Coleman medallists to long term contracts. And Hewett has lost his ability to play football in the last three weeks

We have finally entered bizarro world.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

So it's a "bad" thing to sign up the most recent brownlow medallist and the last 2 Coleman medallists to long term contracts. And Hewett has lost his ability to play football in the last three weeks

We have finally entered bizarro world.

Signing them up is terrific, having them contracted until 2029/2030 is overkill.
Hewitt is a solid Afl quality footballer who is a senior player in the right situation my issue is the 4 year contract for a one position footballer in an already slow midfield.

 

[Monty1978]

Signing them up is terrific, having them contracted until 2029/2030 is overkill.
Hewitt is a solid Afl quality footballer who is a senior player in the right situation my issue is the 4 year contract for a one position footballer in an already slow midfield.

Im with you mate .. we need to be smarter with how long our contracts are and I love how people take out of context what your trying to say ..

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Im with you mate .. we need to be smarter with how long our contracts are and I love how people take out of context what your trying to say ..

Thanks. I love these players but the front of the jumper is more important than the number on the back, in my original post I was complimentary about some of the things Austin has done but feel he has been extremely generous with the length of some of the contracts handed out.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

1) I’m just using Selwood and Hawkins as an example there are many others but it’s well known they took unders through their careers and rarely waited until the years their contract was up to sign long term deals.

2) Cripps is a star but the position he plays and the smashing his body takes the end comes very quickly for these types of players Voss and Ratten are perfect examples of this.

3) Charlie and Harry have both had major injury issues throughout their careers having them signed up for 7/8 years is way overboard if they are not happy to stay loyal with say a 4/5 year deal have the courage to let them go, look at the ridiculous price Fremantle paid for Jackson no player is irreplaceable.

4) Hewitt had a solid year last season but Sydney new what they were doing letting him go, they new he had back problems, they new he was slow one positioned and they needed to create midfield space for Warner, Rowbottom, florent and others to thrive, reality is Hewitt wouldn’t get a game In half the afl teams at the moment, look at Matt crouch, jarrod lyons and other slow one position players who are equal or better than Hewitt who don’t get games for their respective teams.

Guess you're not a glass half full type!!

 

[Benaly28]

So it's a "bad" thing to sign up the most recent brownlow medallist and the last 2 Coleman medallists to long term contracts. And Hewett has lost his ability to play football in the last three weeks

We have finally entered bizarro world.

That’s what a disappointing loss does to people….start to lose their minds.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gbatman]

That’s what a disappointing loss does to people….start to lose their minds.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

The worry is we were top 4 a lot of last year, then we missed finals.

Also we drew Richmond (15th) who are doing poorly, beat Geelong (10th) going poorly, beat GWS (12th) who are going poorly, beat North (13th) going poorly and got thrashed by Adelaide (7th) who are going ok.

We've struggled and narrowly got over our 3 wins and drew with an ordinary Richmond. Turns out our draw so far has been good. Getting thrashed the way we did against the Crows is not great.

I would definitely argue we are not going as well as ladder position dictates.

It's good while we are there, but we need to finish there.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Guess you're not a glass half full type!!

I am a glass half full type actually and very positive about many things Austin has done since taking over such as the Saad, Cerra deals and the Motlop,Durdin, Hollands and Cowan draft picks, I just think he’s been extremely generous with the length of contracts given to some of our players.

 

[Jeremias]

Signing a 4/5 year deal is not a short term contract for a player in their prime in my eyes.

No it isn’t, and I didn’t suggest it was.

The current environment dictates though that it is on the shorter end.

How many stars in their prime sign 4 year deals?

The Voss/Ratten comparison was because they played a physical style similar to Cripps and in the afl today there are maybe 1 or 2 others who cop the battering Cripps cops week in week out, but In saying that Cripps deal doesn’t bother me as much as some other deals because at least he has earned it.

So which of the long term deals are the issue?

I’d argue Harry and Charlie have both earned their long term contracts.

Williams isn’t looking great, but it’s hard to prove one’s worth when out injured.

I wasn’t comparing Jackson to Charlie and Harry as players our boys are miles ahead the comparison was about the ransom Melbourne got in a trade for him. Absolutely we should’ve tried best to sign Charlie and Harry but on our terms a 5 year deal is more than fair for these two and if they want to leave the compensation would be enormous.

Yeah we can continue to draft and develop superstars and then trade them off in or approaching their prime.

Or we can get serious about becoming a contender.

I have no doubt the latter is more achievable with them here rather than elsewhere.

crouch is a best and fairest winner and lyons has been just as consistent as Hewitt throughout his career.

Crouch was a best and fairest winner 7 years ago.

Lyons is now on the outer at his 3rd club.

Neither of them have the ability to play anywhere other than their primary position.

That is not the case for George who can play in a number of roles.

Hewitt in his younger days could play a little half forward nowadays he’s too slow to play half forward also too slow for the backline and offers no run or foot skills coming out of defence.

There are many many many slow defenders out there.

A lack of pace isn’t the reason he doesn’t play there.

 

[Benaly28]

The worry is we were top 4 a lot of last year, then we missed finals.

Also we drew Richmond (15th) who are doing poorly, beat Geelong (10th) going poorly, beat GWS (12th) who are going poorly, beat North (13th) going poorly and got thrashed by Adelaide (7th) who are going ok.

We've struggled and narrowly got over our 3 wins and drew with an ordinary Richmond. Turns out our draw so far has been good. Getting thrashed the way we did against the Crows is not great.

I would definitely argue we are not going as well as ladder position dictates.

It's good while we are there, but we need to finish there.

Our midfield is a large part of whether we do well or not.It’s struggled from round 1 and on the weekend was exposed badly.It’s a bit one paced a lot like ports was.Inject some pace (Rozee/Butters) and it gives us a different look.

I’m confident they will improve but the coaching staff need a plan B as it seems teams have worked out our weapons and that goes for CC and HM.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jeremias]

'Better footballer' is hard to define. When determining a footballer's contract value, achievements/output (AA squad) and durability surely are relevant.

Not really.

AA squad is largely voted on by journalists and media personalities who we spend the entire year making fun of.

Why all of a sudden is their opinion gospel?

In any case I'm not all that enthralled with either Hopper or Hill. I just think you'd be in the minority to say Williams is 'clearly better' than them.

That’s fine. I call it as I see it and I’m not a fan of either Hopper or Hill.

I have Williams as clearly the better player.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

Not really.

AA squad is largely voted on by journalists and media personalities who we spend the entire year making fun of.

Why all of a sudden is their opinion gospel?

Couldn't agree more, got the same opinion when using the Brownlow in this manner you look at who gives the votes, it just makes the argument nil and void.

 

[Jeremias]

Couldn't agree more, got the same opinion when using the Brownlow in this manner you look at who gives the votes, it just makes the argument nil and void.

I agree, though I would value the thoughts of the umpires far more than I would the thoughts of journalists.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

No it isn’t, and I didn’t suggest it was.

The current environment dictates though that it is on the shorter end.

How many stars in their prime sign 4 year deals?



So which of the long term deals are the issue?

I’d argue Harry and Charlie have both earned their long term contracts.

Williams isn’t looking great, but it’s hard to prove one’s worth when out injured.



Yeah we can continue to draft and develop superstars and then trade them off in or approaching their prime.

Or we can get serious about becoming a contender.

I have no doubt the latter is more achievable with them here rather than elsewhere.


Crouch was a best and fairest winner 7 years ago.

Lyons is now on the outer at his 3rd club.

Neither of them have the ability to play anywhere other than their primary position.

That is not the case for George who can play in a number of roles.


There are many many many slow defenders out there.

A lack of pace isn’t the reason he doesn’t play there.

Just to be clear I believe both Charlie and Harry 2 of the best 5 key forwards in the comp they have both earned long term contracts but 7/8 years is a long long time in football 5 years is more than enough unless your name is Sam Walsh for mine.

With Williams I believe we had a desperate ceo at the time who offered a silly contract I don’t believe Austin is responsible for that contract in any way.

On Hewitt I think he is a solid Afl midfielder in the right situation but with Cripps who is a star and going nowhere, Cerra who is slow but a better player than Hewitt and being forced to spend sometime at halfback because he is more versatile than others, Ed who is fitter and a better shutdown player and Kennedy who is also slow and doesn’t transition well the mix in the midfield isn’t right.

On Hewitt’s versatility would you honestly be comfortable this week if he spent time at halfback playing on Gresham, butler or Higgins ?

 

[BigFrizz36]

Th

Thanks. I love these players but the front of the jumper is more important than the number on the back, in my original post I was complimentary about some of the things Austin has done but feel he has been extremely generous with the length of some of the contracts handed out.

Think about this then. Hopper and Taranto are both on 7 year deals with Richmond. Both players are vastly inferior, in terms of being able to influence games, than Charlie and Harry .

So if we were to offer Harry and Charlie 4 year deals they would be knocked over in the rush from every other club in the comp with a 7 year deal. Swans would offer Charlie a 9 year deal.

So we run the risk of losing one or maybe both. The trade off for loyalty these days is length of contract.

It is clearly a good thing to sign club champions to long term contracts provided you don't snooker yourself with the salary cap. That doesn't change even if the team isn't going as well as you'd like.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Th
Think about this then. Hopper and Taranto are both on 7 year deals with Richmond. Both players are vastly inferior, in terms of being able to influence games, than Charlie and Harry .

So if we were to offer Harry and Charlie 4 year deals they would be knocked over in the rush from every other club in the comp with a 7 year deal. Swans would offer Charlie a 9 year deal.

So we run the risk of losing one or maybe both. The trade off for loyalty these days is length of contract.

It is clearly a good thing to sign club champions to long term contracts provided you don't snooker yourself with the salary cap. That doesn't change even if the team isn't going as well as you'd like.

The Hopper and Taranto deals are horrible deals and I’m sure Richmond will regret them in the future, how often do these deals work in the club’s favour? Almost never Coniglio, Whitfield, Gaff, J.McGovern, Shiel the list goes on.

If these players truly are loyal signing a 5 year deal then reassessing after that should be more than enough 5 years is a long time in football.