List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[btdg]

You are being grossly unfair on the club here IMO.

Sure, long term deals are risky but we are hardly the only club operating in that space. It is very much the norm for marquee players in the current environment. This is not an issue for our club specifically.

7+ year deals

Clayton Oliver
Christian Petracca
Jacob Hopper
Tim Taranto
Josh Kelly
Lachie Whitfield
Stephen Coniglio
Tom Lynch
Dustin Martin

6 years:

Charlie Curnow
Callum Mills
Darcy Moore
Shai Bolton
Isaac Heeney
Patrick Cripps
Zach Merrett
Hayden Young
Zac Williams
Toby Greene
Brad Hill
Tim Kelly
Dylan Shiel
Brandon Ellis

5 years; far too many to mention, and I think you probably get the point anyway.

Players are opting for longer term contracts and are prepared to accept a lower annual salary for that additional security.
It's all well and good to say we should push back on that, but what exactly do we stand to gain by doing so? And does that potential gain outweigh the likely situation of not being as attractive a destination for potential recruits?

Zac Williams is notably a rung or three lower than almost every player on that list - the only comparable deal would be Brandon Ellis and GC have their own special world they have to operate in.

It was an utterly bizarre deal at the time - a massive deal to a solid role player on the whim that he would be able to switch positions and become a star. It's turned into an absolute mess because of the length and his subsequent injuries, and is almost unquestionably the worst contract in the AFL at this point.

Almost because of this, our other long term deals are probably a good thing, though. We've locked in our bookends and core pieces, and that means we know what we are working with for the next 3-5 years, and can plan around it. There isn't likely to be any more big deals coming in during that time, so might as well build around what we have.

So far, that seems a refreshing change for the club, a shift away from the 'great man' hope that we're only ever just one big piece away. Instead, we seem to be pushing singles and chipping the ball around the park a bit more with good solid role players and smarter draft picks (just taking guys who have AFL calibre skills, not trying to hit sixes all over the place with speculative roughies).

 

[Jeremias]

Zac Williams is notably a rung or three lower than almost every player on that list - the only comparable deal would be Brandon Ellis and GC have their own special world they have to operate in.

Don't agree with this at all and suspect it's a case of recency bias given most are currently out on the park whereas Zac unfortunately is not.

Williams is a better footballer than quite a few on that list, including Ellis.

 

[Blue1980]

Dow hasn't been in the side, so the statement is flawed. You can only compare Hewett against players at the same level or games

Anyone who doesn’t play magically gets better.

 

[Blue1980]

Regardless if it is successful or not, we really should try alternatives, not brandish statistics from 2021 and 2022.
All posters are asking for is a block of 3-4 games as an inside mid, without the axe hovering over his head focusing on failure.
The current set up has rarely worked since round 9 or 10 last year.
A small improvement in ball movement through the midfield will equate to a large improvement in our forwards.

Problem is this, say we play Dow this week, say we lose by 50+ and Dow gets 15 touches and basically plays like he did v Brisbane last year.

Do we just give him another 2-3 games? The club and the fans want to win now, we aren’t in development mode. Unfortunately for Dow he plays a role where we are well stocked, I do think the issue with our on ball brigade has been somewhat injury related.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere though, I’d rather Dow than a banged up Hewett or Cripps, even if only for a week to let those guys recover.

 

[Blue1980]

It will make a difference, we become worse


People have really lost their balance when it has come to Dow, but it's probably more about, "do well at VFL, replace not so good AFL" This is a weekly occurrence

Hewett, having a poor start to the season, is averaging 3.8 clearances (also spent time off HB), last year 6.6

Dow has never averaged more 2.8 in any season

So, Dow isn't in the same postcode as Hewett, whether it's as an attacking or defensive mid

The only theory is change for the sake of change

That is another theory I have, people have higher expectations for all of our mids, so if any of Hewett, Cripps, Kennedy, Cerra or even Ed have a below average game people want Dow in, even though below average games from those 5 is usually on par with a good Dow game.

If Dow had say the same game as Ed (23 touches) on Thursday night (who many want out of the side for Dow), people would be demanding Dow gets a season long run and that he’d shut up the haters and proved he belongs etc. One could of also pointed to the fact that it was all done in a terrible loss.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Problem is this, say we play Dow this week, say we lose by 50+ and Dow gets 15 touches and basically plays like he did v Brisbane last year.

Do we just give him another 2-3 games? The club and the fans want to win now, we aren’t in development mode. Unfortunately for Dow he plays a role where we are well stocked, I do think the issue with our on ball brigade has been somewhat injury related.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere though, I’d rather Dow than a banged up Hewett or Cripps, even if only for a week to let those guys recover.

I think the answer would have to be "yes, within reason".

He'd just need some KPI's laid out, and realistic ones given it would be his first proper senior game in a while. A quiet game could be as much due to Dow struggling to adjust as his teammates needing time to synergise with him as well and put the ball where he needs it.

If he's half-arsing tackles or ducking his head when he needs to contest a high ball, that's a different story. There'd need to be some non-negotiables, but also some acceptance that a few games might be needed to dust off the cobwebs.

Some fans wouldn't like that. So be it. Doesn't matter. Get him in at some point and have a proper look at him. While some of our other mids are looking hampered is as good a time as any, because even a failure from Dow represents a gain for the rest of the season with those guys getting a chance to freshen up.

 

[btdg]

Don't agree with this at all and suspect it's a case of recency bias given most are currently out on the park whereas Zac unfortunately is not.

Williams is a better footballer than quite a few on that list, including Ellis.

Who is he better than?

All-Australians: Oliver, Petracca, Kelly, Whitfield, Lynch, Martin, Curnow, Mills, Moore, Bolton, Heeney, Cripps, Merrett, Greene, Kelly, Shiel
Those are all players who have been in the best 2-3 at their position in the league at some point or another, and clearly better players than Williams has ever been. Even now, a couple have dropped away from their best... as has Williams, who literally can't get on the park.

Then you can add in:

• Coniglio = club captain, clearly ahead as a player
• Hopper, Taranto = proven players in the midfield; definitely better than Williams at the point he signed his deal.

i think what you are left with is Hayden Young, Brad Hill and Brandon Ellis. Hill was a premiership player and I reckon most would accept has had a better career than Williams, and even his contract has been heavily criticised.

Young = probably less proven than Williams and looks very early in his career to have a long deal. I guess Freo are gambling on what he has shown there, and wanting to avoid 'go-home' issues given he is a Melbourne boy and his brother plays for North, who are likely to have plenty of draft leverage to get him home.

 

[Blue1980]

With all this Dow chat..

One thing that I find interesting is that other teams have systems/structures that allow them to integrate players with significant deficiencies in order to extract their strengths. Dow has his limitations which have been discussed ad nauseam (lack of pressure, two way running etc.) but he also has strengths we sorely lack (acceleration from stoppage, quick clean hands).

We need to find a way to implement him into the team. I believe we do this by rotating in-game our midfield guys with the added benefit of keeping them fresh. Other teams do this but we go all game with the same setup. This means Cripps, Kennedy, Cerra and Hewett have less impact as fatigue sets in and when the game is on the line. Cripps can impact forward. Kennedy is a nice mark and accurate kick. Cerra, Walsh and Hewett can take spells off half back. Dow gives us something we don’t have. Time to stop playing it safe. Everything we do is safe.

One final point. Big believer that consistent VFL form has to be rewarded. That creates a stronger culture. Absolutely sends the wrong message when you have a guy blitzing week in week out at the lower level but is constantly overlooked for guys being pigeon holed back into the team or rushed back from injury.

We already do this, re integrate players with deficiencies. We go with the slower midfield bulls in Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy etc.

Dow would be another one we’d be putting into the mix, he has to replace one of those 3 to get a game. You’d be exacerbating the existing issues if you try to go with 4 of them.

So only way I see Dow coming in, would be if either or both of Hewett and Cripps aren’t right. I’m not dropping Kennedy, he’s got runs on the board and was in our best first 3 weeks.

As many have pointed out, our list is unbalanced with too many of some types and none or very little of others, and others just permanently injured. Dow has outperformed guys in the VFL like Honey and LOB who get regular games, but they play roles Dow doesn’t.

 

[btdg]

That is another theory I have, people have higher expectations for all of our mids, so if any of Hewett, Cripps, Kennedy, Cerra or even Ed have a below average game people want Dow in, even though below average games from those 5 is usually on par with a good Dow game.

If Dow had say the same game as Ed (23 touches) on Thursday night (who many want out of the side for Dow), people would be demanding Dow gets a season long run and that he’d shut up the haters and proved he belongs etc. One could of also pointed to the fact that it was all done in a terrible loss.

If Dow gets another go, we have to play him on his terms. Too often we've tried to get him to be something that he isn't.

Dow is a ball-winning extractor. He also runs forward of the ball quite well and has been putting goals up in the reserves, which gives him a second string to his bow.

The reason he was drafted pick 3 was to be that player: to be 'worth' playing in the team, he needs to be given licence to chase the ball and attack with it, and needs to be getting 25+ touches (minimum) and a shot at goal or two. He's not a great defensive runner, not a great tackle pressure guy... and that's ok, if your strengths outweigh the weaknesses, and you are part of a system that maximises that. He is also a burst runner, and again, that's perfect because we have a heap of depth in the midfield.

Given his form, and our midfield's lack of it, particularly in the center square, I'd be keen to give him a go for the next couple of weeks. Plonk him into the center with Cripps and a defensive mid (Hewitt/Curnow).

Our biggest issue all over is our structure anywaay. We're playing 3x ruckmen most games, and while our midfield is deep none individually are fast defensive runners. Rather than bringing extra midfielders to the contest and winning the ball forward, we're playing 1-1 with a loose player behind the ball, then expecting the midfield to run back with the flight and then extract and carry the length of the ground. Instead, we should go all in on the midfielders, play essentially a 4-8-6 setup, gamble on winning the ball out more than we lose and trying to use our players to our advantage. Dow would be perfect in that structure, and it would see us get more out of Cripps, Kennedy and Walsh imo too.

 

[Blue1980]

I think the answer would have to be "yes, within reason".

He'd just need some KPI's laid out, and realistic ones given it would be his first proper senior game in a while. A quiet game could be as much due to Dow struggling to adjust as his teammates needing time to synergise with him as well and put the ball where he needs it.

If he's half-arsing tackles or not ducking his head when he needs to contest a high ball, that's a different story. There'd need to be some non-negotiables, but also some acceptance that a few games might be needed to dust off the cobwebs.

Some fans wouldn't like that. So be it. Doesn't matter. Get him in at some point and have a proper look at him. While some of our other mids are looking hampered is as good a time as any, because even a failure from Dow represents a gain for the rest of the season with those guys getting a chance to freshen up.

I’d agree with that, if he had a game like pies last year he’d be worth another game, a one v Brisbane would not, especially if someone was ready to come back in fully right to go.

 

[macky99]

Stamos, I leave you with the other poster wanting Dow in

No need to continue the debate with me

There are two issues, one is that our midfield has become so one dimensional Cripps/Kennedy/Hewitt/Curnow, l don't think Voss has any interest in playing Dow, but he has clearly been a very strong performer in the reserves for a significant period, whilst other less performing players eg Honey recently comes into the team, not saying Dow is the solution but his form justifies a opportunity for a block of games not one game.

We had a strong start to last season on the back of these strong big bodied mid-fielders but none of them are quick and this is going to become a issue unless we change this up a little going forward.

 

[btdg]

We already do this, re integrate players with deficiencies. We go with the slower midfield bulls in Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy etc.

Dow would be another one we’d be putting into the mix, he has to replace one of those 3 to get a game. You’d be exacerbating the existing issues if you try to go with 4 of them.

So only way I see Dow coming in, would be if either or both of Hewett and Cripps aren’t right. I’m not dropping Kennedy, he’s got runs on the board and was in our best first 3 weeks.

As many have pointed out, our list is unbalanced with too many of some types and none or very little of others, and others just permanently injured. Dow has outperformed guys in the VFL like Honey and LOB who get regular games, but they play roles Dow doesn’t.

You are only exacerbating the issue of 'slower' midfields if the other team gets the ball first. No one looks slow when they are running downhill...

As in my other post, our biggest issue is we are both slow(ish - I actually think this is a bit overblown) AND not great at contested footy (Cripps aside). We also have lots of midfielders (Cripps, Hewitt, Kennedy, Cerra, E Curnow, Walsh, Fisher, Dow and probably Docherty all best as midfielders), and fewer outside runners (particularly forward flankers and wings).

We are, imo, playing to cover our weaknesses - leaving our midfield 1-1, putting a loose man behind the ball (to cover if the mids get beaten) and hoping that McKay/Charlie can do enough to kick a winning score when we do get it.

I don't think we'll see the best of this team until we start playing to our strengths instead; use the extra midfielders by bringing them to the contest (ie: play the 'plus one' at the contest rather than loose behind the ball... except I'd probably bring TWO in most cases).

 

[beowulf]

There are two issues, one is that our midfield has become so one dimensional Cripps/Kennedy/Hewitt/Curnow, l don't think Voss has any interest in playing Dow, but he has clearly been a very strong performer in the reserves for a significant period, whilst other less performing players eg Honey recently comes into the team, not saying Dow is the solution but his form justifies a opportunity for a block of games not one game.

We had a strong start to last season on the back of these strong big bodied mid-fielders but none of them are quick and this is going to become a issue unless we change this up a little going forward.

Unlike this time last year, our rucks are not getting a lot of taps to anything like advantage. Neither Pittonet nor de Koning are getting the taps, nor are they directing them well.
On the other hand, the opposition rucks are getting taps that really favour their mids. It was noticeable in round 1 against Richmond, it was worse against North and it was the most obvious thing against Adelaide.
Our mids might need pace, I admit that freely, but we also need to get better access to the ball.

 

[blue healer]

Dow hasn't been in the side, so the statement is flawed. You can only compare Hewett against players at the same level or games

This being the case then how can some be so dogmatic about Dow being no good.

Maybe we need to see both Hewitt and Dow in the VFL

 

[blue healer]

It will make a difference, we become worse


People have really lost their balance when it has come to Dow, but it's probably more about, "do well at VFL, replace not so good AFL" This is a weekly occurrence

Hewett, having a poor start to the season, is averaging 3.8 clearances (also spent time off HB), last year 6.6

Dow has never averaged more 2.8 in any season

So, Dow isn't in the same postcode as Hewett, whether it's as an attacking or defensive mid

The only theory is change for the sake of change

But isn't doing the same continually and expecting a different result a flawed theory.

 

[HarryFlashman]

But isn't doing the same continually and expecting a different result a flawed theory.

No, it’s a definition of Insanity! (attributed to Albert Einstein- chances are he didn’t say it thou)

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Any chance we can off load Tom De Koning

21

Tom De Koning

Age

26

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

(and maybe a 2nd rounder) to GWS for their Richmond 2023 first round pick ?

TDK is never going to be an A Grader, I am convinced of it, let's sell high if we can.

 

[Blue By Blood]

Any chance we can off load Tom De Koning

21

Tom De Koning

Age

26

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

(and maybe a 2nd rounder) to GWS for their Richmond 2023 first round pick ?

TDK is never going to be an A Grader, I am convinced of it, let's sell high if we can.

He’s still young but he does seem to double grab his marks an awful lot. Would need to improve that a lot to become effective up forward. He’s an interesting case, not brilliant in the ruck or forward. Mind you, we’ve lost a lot of our young talent in previous years and can’t really afford to lose another highly promising talent. Wouldn’t be letting him go unless we get priced out and he wants that extra $$.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

You are being grossly unfair on the club here IMO.

Sure, long term deals are risky but we are hardly the only club operating in that space. It is very much the norm for marquee players in the current environment. This is not an issue for our club specifically.

7+ year deals

Clayton Oliver
Christian Petracca
Jacob Hopper
Tim Taranto
Josh Kelly
Lachie Whitfield
Stephen Coniglio
Tom Lynch
Dustin Martin

6 years:

Charlie Curnow
Callum Mills
Darcy Moore
Shai Bolton
Isaac Heeney
Patrick Cripps
Zach Merrett
Hayden Young
Zac Williams
Toby Greene
Brad Hill
Tim Kelly
Dylan Shiel
Brandon Ellis

5 years; far too many to mention, and I think you probably get the point anyway.

Players are opting for longer term contracts and are prepared to accept a lower annual salary for that additional security.
It's all well and good to say we should push back on that, but what exactly do we stand to gain by doing so? And does that potential gain outweigh the likely situation of not being as attractive a destination for potential recruits?

I wouldn’t say it’s grossly unfair and of course their should be exceptions for ultimate professionals like Sam Walsh,.

The last 2-3 years of these deals really come back to hurt clubs look at the cat’s stars unselfishness with Selwood and Hawkins playing on 1 or 2 year deals when they turned 29/30.

Signings the stars up long term I can see some logic but anything over 5 years is unnecessary, however having mid tier players like Hewitt, Kennedy and Fisher on 3/4 year contracts I can’t understand no club in the league would give us a pick below 40 for any of these three and they are easily replaceable with cheaper options from other clubs on short term deals.

 

[blue healer]

No, it’s a definition of Insanity! (attributed to Albert Einstein- chances are he didn’t say it thou)

I knew that, I was paraphrasing...Jeez

 

[Blue1980]

Re TDK, if we let him go and somehow able to turn that into a Darcy from Freo, then do it.

Ruck is a clear area we are weak in and we are playing 2 rucks to do what one very good one would be capable of. Pitt - for hitouts and TDK around the ground.

 

[Accidental genius]

Not sure how long a club can continue carrying injured players....

Games played stats for marchy (2015/16 at GWS) and cunners

Season	Marchbank	Cunners
2023 (to round 5)	0	0
2022	4	0
2021	0	4
2020	0	12
2019	13	9
2018	12	5
2017	16	8
2016	2	3
2015	5

 

[Jeremias]

Who is he better than?

Think he is clearly better than 4

Hopper
Young
Hill
Ellis

Would take him ahead of one or two others as well albeit less clear cut.

 

[Jeremias]

The last 2-3 years of these deals really come back to hurt clubs look at the cat’s stars unselfishness with Selwood and Hawkins playing on 1 or 2 year deals when they turned 29/30.

Not a fair comparison for a number of reasons;

1) In which year did Selwood and Hawkins sign their big contract(s)? I can't recall off the top of my head, but I'd wager a significant amount that it was before these long-term deals became commonplace.

2) 29/30?
Cripps was 26 and has since won the Brownlow
Curnow was 25 and has since won the Coleman
Harry was 24 and had just won the Coleman

Signings the stars up long term I can see some logic but anything over 5 years is unnecessary, however having mid tier players like Hewitt, Kennedy and Fisher on 3/4 year contracts I can’t understand no club in the league would give us a pick below 40 for any of these three and they are easily replaceable with cheaper options from other clubs on short term deals.

Hewett? Yeah, this is recency bias.

Has been down this year - probably largely due to injury - but he was worth every bit of that last year.
In fact I recall that deal being queried at the time and those who queried it were rightly ridiculed weekly, with George having a terrific year and playing a huge part in the complete transformation of our midfield.

If you really think George is easily replaceable, you are simply ignoring what he adds to the team, or forgetting what the midfield was like before his arrival.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Re TDK, if we let him go and somehow able to turn that into a Darcy from Freo, then do it.

Ruck is a clear area we are weak in and we are playing 2 rucks to do what one very good one would be capable of. Pitt - for hitouts and TDK around the ground.

That's not really true - for example, Freo play Darcy and Jackson....

All teams pretty much play one dedicated ruck and a ruck/forward....or a forward/ruck.

Just both of ours are doing much presently.

That aside, we simply have to regain some centre square/stoppage ascendancy....that's on the coaching group!