List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[TimeFor17]

Leg speed and footskills. Our half forward line while valiant the 2nd half of the year is still ordinary and lacking and points of difference.

If you could add an extra 5% leg speed to Owies, Motlop, Fog and Cunners they'd probably be guns but they all look a bit slow for me. Just can't get good separation from their opponents.

I'd go hard at Liam Ryan or if Watson slides in the draft a bit trade up for him.

After watching the game live last night I have to agree that our one biggest hole in our list is a smart small forward with electric pace like C Cameron. Even though he didn’t destroy us, he put pressure on our backline and made us lose composure which is what was a big factor in our loss.
It would be probably a 1 in a 1000 chance but if we could somehow pry Shia Bolton out of Richmond then that could be the final piece of the puzzle.
We should have been 10 goals up a quarter time last night but kicked it long to packs without enough genuine crumbers. If Cameron was on our side he would have kicked 3 or 4 in the 1st.

 

[passmark]

Really?! Let’s retain a player who fumbles, can’t kick and can’t get on the park because he’s fast?? Ridiculous.

Does this acutely describe Philp?

The get on the park bit yes, but is he fumbly and a shit kick?

I honestly don’t know.

 

[Blue1980]

Disagree. You are turning a supplementary player that is used in case of injury into a messiah

We beat port and pies without Dow, so yes we shouldn’t go rewriting history.

He did well when he came in, but he isn’t getting a game ahead of Cripps, Hewett, Walsh, Cerra or Kennedy.

Kennedy the only one you could make a half case he could get in ahead of if playing at his best.

Dow isn’t someone who improves our running capacity, he has some burst speed out of a stoppage but isn’t as good as the others so will only get a game if others are injured.

Unfortunately he plays in a role we have a surplus of options in, even one of Kennedy or Hewett will probably miss out a lot next year.

 

[Blue1980]

We need to transition TDK into being our permanent number one ruck Also need to move Silvagni into our best 23 over Pittonet.

Yet Pittonet earns too much to be relegated like he deserves to be.

Any chance we can trade him and get a capable backup in?

Pitt wouldn’t be on much, would have taken less $$ for the extra years security.

Think of him as Andrew Phillips like backup at worst.

 

[Blue1980]

I don’t agree.
If you have guys on your list that you’ve seen every week for years and still think they’re not up to it, you’re better off trading out for the possibility of someone better. Even if it’s less than a 50/50 bet they’ll be an improvement on the current player/S.

I’ve seen enough of fisher that I’m confident he isn’t in our best 22 either in defence or midfield/forward.

In defence he is behind Boyd, Cincotta and Williams when he is back. In forward/mid role I prefer Cuningham, fog or Cottrell.

 

[passmark]

Best thing about trading Dow is it will stop our supporters turning an average footballer into a messiah

If he plays one good game for the Saints “I ToLd yYoU wE sHoULd kEep hIm”

 

[Blue1980]

Didn't get a chance where others failed the acid test... others should be out the door first that's for sure!

Who should be out instead of Dow?

Dow hasn’t done much wrong, just unfortunate for him we have a surplus of options in his position.

 

[gbatman]

I disagree with just about every point you’ve made here … but in regards to the highlighted: the kind of coach who has just led us to two finals wins in a season for the first time in 24 years.

The kind of coach who had a list that proved it was this good and proved how good it was that he had in 15th place during the middle part of the season.

The kind of coach who had to throw the game plan out and change the makeup of the team to get the team going.

The kind of coach who made finals and reverted back to what was failing.

We have a good list here that we are capable of using in many different ways. We have proved how good it can be if coached and structured well and if coached poorly, proved how poor it can be.

Maybe just making finals or making a prelim feels like a big deal because we are Carlton supporters and we have extremely low standards after being starved of success. If we were Carlton supporters of 23 years ago or Geelong supporters or Sydney supporters and the coach pulled changes like this taking a red hot team into finals and this result happened. We would be ropable! But what you are saying is that we can change a winning and form side, change the structure of it, make mistakes that potentially cost us a grand final appearance. But it's ok because we are Carlton and we haven't played finals in a while.

Well I'm not swallowing that.

I think we choked at match committee, went into finals too slow and that's why we aren't watching Carlton play in a grand final next week.

You put Fisher at half back instead of a lame and sore Cincotta and he has 20-30 touches, heaps of run and carry and precise kicking and connects us with our forwards.

Cincotta, who is clearly not fit and not in form and not playing as well as Dow was. You put him forward instead of Fogarty who has been terrible all finals series and he plays 50% onball and 50% forward. Leave Dow in the middle. You get a lot more run and forward run out of the middle and you kick more goals. Cerra is going to do everything Fogarty does but at a much higher level.

Hollands, Boyd still come in. You can rotate the half backs with the back pockets now. Keep them fresh.

We are already miles better off and don't have ball movement issues. We probably keep running and going forward after being 31 points up at quarter time. Shit we probably win it.

But no, keep the rigid thinking. Dow can't play and Fisher isn't tough enough. Even though they were two of the main pieces in some of our biggest wins of the year over a couple of the better sides.

 

[Wickzki]

Pitt wouldn’t be on much, would have taken less $$ for the extra years security.

Think of him as Andrew Phillips like backup at worst.

I hope not. Honestly thought he was absolutely horrific yesterday. 3 very bad free kicks against, a very poor kick out of defense that rebounded right back and then whatever you want to call it when he had the ball in an offensive position in the third quarter when we needed a momentum get her when we had some of the play.

Cost us 3 to 5 goals himself yesterday.

 

[Blue1980]

If he plays one good game for the Saints “I ToLd yYoU wE sHoULd kEep hIm”

A lot of our supporter base aren’t used to it, but we actually have depth now which means you can’t keep everyone who is AFL standard.

Some here were upset about Setterfield and stocker going last year when they would add nothing to our current side except maybe slightly more depth in areas we are well stocked (pardon the pun) in.

 

[Blue1980]

I hope not. Honestly thought he was absolutely horrific yesterday. 3 very bad free kicks against, a very poor kick out of defense that rebounded right back and then whatever you want to call it when he had the ball in an offensive position in the third quarter when we needed a momentum get her when we had some of the play.

Cost us 3 to 5 goals himself yesterday.

Ironically the guy who would be good in the Pitt role now would be Levi.

Too late now, but ideally we need a backup ruck who can go forward.

 

[Blue1980]

The kind of coach who had a list that proved it was this good and proved how good it was that he had in 15th place during the middle part of the season.

The kind of coach who had to throw the game plan out and change the makeup of the team to get the team going.

The kind of coach who made finals and reverted back to what was failing.

We have a good list here that we are capable of using in many different ways. We have proved how good it can be if coached and structured well and if coached poorly, proved how poor it can be.

Maybe just making finals or making a prelim feels like a big deal because we are Carlton supporters and we have extremely low standards after being starved of success. If we were Carlton supporters of 23 years ago or Geelong supporters or Sydney supporters and the coach pulled changes like this taking a red hot team into finals and this result happened. We would be ropable! But what you are saying is that we can change a winning and form side, change the structure of it, make mistakes that potentially cost us a grand final appearance. But it's ok because we are Carlton and we haven't played finals in a while.

Well I'm not swallowing that.

I think we choked at match committee, went into finals too slow and that's why we aren't watching Carlton play in a grand final next week.

You put Fisher at half back instead of a lame and sore Cincotta and he has 20-30 touches, heaps of run and carry and precise kicking and connects us with our forwards.

Cincotta, who is clearly not fit and not in form and not playing as well as Dow was. You put him forward instead of Fogarty who has been terrible all finals series and he plays 50% onball and 50% forward. Leave Dow in the middle. You get a lot more run and forward run out of the middle and you kick more goals. Cerra is going to do everything Fogarty does but at a much higher level.

Hollands, Boyd still come in. You can rotate the half backs with the back pockets now. Keep them fresh.

We are already miles better off and don't have ball movement issues. We probably keep running and going forward after being 31 points up at quarter time. s**t we probably win it.

But no, keep the rigid thinking. Dow can't play and Fisher isn't tough enough. Even though they were two of the main pieces in some of our biggest wins of the year over a couple of the better sides.

In terms of generating more run, I agree I just don’t think the guys outside the side would have been any better than the ones in it.

You rate fisher a lot higher than I do.

 

[Kruezing]

Ironically the guy who would be good in the Pitt role now would be Levi.

Too late now, but ideally we need a backup ruck who can go forward.

I’d rather play Jack in this role till we find someone …

 

[Blue1980]

I’d rather play Jack in this role till we find someone …

If TDK continues to come on and improve even further, it would seem to make the most sense.

 

[Kruezing]

I hope not. Honestly thought he was absolutely horrific yesterday. 3 very bad free kicks against, a very poor kick out of defense that rebounded right back and then whatever you want to call it when he had the ball in an offensive position in the third quarter when we needed a momentum get her when we had some of the play.

Cost us 3 to 5 goals himself yesterday.

Yeah he had a poor game no doubt

 

[HarryFlashman]

After watching the game live last night I have to agree that our one biggest hole in our list is a smart small forward with electric pace like C Cameron. Even though he didn’t destroy us, he put pressure on our backline and made us lose composure which is what was a big factor in our loss.
It would be probably a 1 in a 1000 chance but if we could somehow pry Shia Bolton out of Richmond then that could be the final piece of the puzzle.
We should have been 10 goals up a quarter time last night but kicked it long to packs without enough genuine crumbers. If Cameron was on our side he would have kicked 3 or 4 in the 1st.

Easy to get him from the tiges - would just cost Harry
I’m not saying trade H! just that Bolton would cost kings ransom, he’s a flog but a hell of a footballer.

 

[passmark]

Is it time for the yearly “Papley to Carlton” chat?

 

[gbatman]

In terms of generating more run, I agree I just don’t think the guys outside the side would have been any better than the ones in it.

You rate fisher a lot higher than I do.

Cincotta was terrible, he could hardly move. Rumoured to be a likely out. He was clearly struggling and probably should have missed.

Fisher's last few games 32, 24, 28, 24. Those are top level numbers for a half back. We watched the games. He was running with the ball, dodgind opposition players, massive metres gained, he was kicking it really well, hitting hard targets, getting us into the middle of the ground. He wasn't getting beaten by his opponents or being some kind of liability or any of that BS I have heard.

Boyd was a good in but he's a level below this sort of footy.

You need players like this in your team. You need rebound to generate score so you aren't a one trick team reliant from scoring from clearance alone.

Put yourself in the coache's shoes, how do you tell a bloke who's getting Adam Saad like numbers at half back and running and dodging opposition and hitting targets like Adam Saad that he's getting dropped for finals based on an idea. An idea that has proven to be flawed.

I'm not buying that. We made team selection mistakes.

Saad was tied up defending Cameron.

We didn't have anyone who was going to play half back get over 25 touches and provide us run.

We have beaten sides all year with our running half back. Why did we drop them out?

The other sides who finished in the prelims have fast hard running half back lines. Why did we chose not to?

There is no way you can twist this to make it sound like we got this right.

Disagree. You are turning a supplementary player that is used in case of injury into a messiah

No he's not a messiah. He's just a good average to above average AFL midfielder who has high impact traits we lacked badly since dropping him and recreating a one paced midfield and Walsh. Plenty of good average premiership players out there who brought something good to their team.

You are turning a good AFL midfielder who has some hurt factor who has proven himself in big games against top sides into Cameron O'Shea.

You watched the games, you saw us beat St Kilda, Collingwood and Melbourne which were basically finals for us. You saw how good he was. Let's not act blind here and he was playing well enough to be selected, he was playing better than Cerra has been who has really struggled since coming back.

Reality is we dropped one of our form and at the time most damaging mids for Cerra who came back poorly. Changed a fit and in form player for one who had neither trait. Time again would have brought Cerra back through the forward line. He's a good forward and forward mid is a hole in our side. Past experiences where he has come back from injury he has been very slow to regain match fitness so no big surprise.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Fisher and Dow are gone. Everyone here knows it and everyone in the media has already acknowledged it as a foregone conclusion. Any discussion about them not related to how much we're getting back for them is basically pointless.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Ironically the guy who would be good in the Pitt role now would be Levi.

Too late now, but ideally we need a backup ruck who can go forward.

How good was Hayden McLean against us a few weeks ago. He would be the perfect partner to TDK.

Lemmey is a fair way off but I hope he can start to be that player by 2025.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Fisher and Dow are gone. Everyone here knows it and everyone in the media has already acknowledged it as a foregone conclusion. Any discussion about them not related to how much we're getting back for them is basically pointless.

 

[passmark]

How good was Hayden McLean against us a few weeks ago. He would be the perfect partner to TDK.

Lemmey is a fair way off but I hope he can start to be that player by 2025.

Yes. Said the same about McClean.
Grundy going there might squeeze him out.

 

[rp84]

Sure, the flipside is that at CHF - he may just be the best player in the comp.

I think they both should be interchanging up the ground more often, which might see Charlie getting out the back outside 50 like Buddy used to

 

[gbatman]

I don’t agree.
If you have guys on your list that you’ve seen every week for years and still think they’re not up to it, you’re better off trading out for the possibility of someone better. Even if it’s less than a 50/50 bet they’ll be an improvement on the current player/S.

Yeah I agree. That's how we got Nick Newman. Decisions like that. Swans wouldn't mind him back I reckon.

 

[rp84]

I’ve no idea if Mirkov will make it but I just don’t see it with Pitto.

If Mirkov needed a valve replacement, there is no way they should persist. Like to know the details on that one but if his aortic regurg was bad enough to sit out, presumably needed some intervention.

Was already incredibly speculative.