List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[briztoon]

What are you basing the fagan comment on?

Picking Lyons last night for the sub role. Playing Gardiner up forward. Picking Fort for one game.

Some of it is Fagan also being wedded to a certain structure and style, that is very hard for him to move away from.

He moved on plenty of older players while we were rebuilding in the early seasons of his tenure

We were rebuilding, of course you're moving on older players.

Now we are contending (questionable this season).

I do agree, that you pick your best 22, and that experienced senior players are much prefered over in experienced kids, but sometimes an extended injury list might mean having to play more kids than desired. Still Fagan went back to Lyons on the bench.

Now we didn't lose last night because of Lyons, but Lyons is incapable of making a positive impact any more, but he's still prefered over Robertson or any other young player, or moving the magnets on the board.

 

[Elixuh]

Picking Lyons last night for the sub role. Playing Gardiner up forward. Picking Fort for one game.

I know you love Dev, but picking Lyons as sub made a lot of sense in those conditions with Choc under an injury cloud.

If anything Dev has been played in more games than his form has necessarily deserved.

 

[briztoon]

Johnnys post is based on our season already being done. But imo it’s when finals are an impossibility. So potentially a long time from now.

You know I keep posting tank gifs right.

Won’t that mid spot be taken by Will?

Yes, but Will isn't back yet. We could be playing Berry inside now, and blooding a potential wing.

It's also a long season. Other injuries could happen. And, I've been a big proponent of squad rotation and giving senior players a rest, such as Geelong do.

Berry is a bit more versatile. Gut running and also pushes up into the contest.

Not sure that's being versatile, but much more a function of how we play our wings, as we saw Ah Chee and Fletcher doing that last week as well, as highlighted on First Crack and Daniel Hoyne on SEN.

Reville probably only one in vfl who can do that well. Not sure what his gut running is like.

Reville or Tunstill. Sharp obviously has the endurance, but his kicking is on par with Berry's. Prior has played the role before as well, but has one good game, one average game and one poor game. However he's being played in defence in the reserves and appears locked in there.

 

[M Malice]

Just had a look through the free agents and Elliot Yeo

6

Elliot Yeo

Age

32

Ht

191cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

11.7

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.5

5star

CL

3.0

4star

D

18.9

4star

K

10.9

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

5.8

5star

CL

5.5

5star

D

16.6

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.2

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.6

3star

CL

1.4

4star

(UFA) is in super form atm, would be a gamble with his recent injury history and age(30), but would be mighty handy for 2 years with us in the window.

I do also like Cam Zurhaar(RFA), in the prime of his career at 25 years old, + Will Hayward

9

Will Hayward

Age

27

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

9.0

2star

K

4.3

2star

HB

4.7

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.4

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.4

5star

(25, RFA).

Would not be disappointed if we got 1 of those 3, we do have a long Fagan era history of bringing in good to elite players from other clubs, Cameron, Neale, Dunkley, Daniher, Doedee, Fort, McCarthy, Ah Chee, Lyons.

 

[briztoon]

I know you love Dev, but picking Lyons as sub made a lot of sense in those conditions with Choc under an injury cloud.

If anything Dev has been played in more games than his form has necessarily deserved.

Oh, I've moved past Dev. It's either play him inside, or leave him in the reserves. Lohmann has that pressure forward role now.

It's clear Fagan won't play Dev inside, but he really shouldn't be playing Lyons there anymore either. Move the magnets and put Berry inside if we need to sub Neale off, and bring a sub on to a wing.

 

[Elixuh]

Just had a look through the free agents and Elliot Yeo(UFA) is in super form atm, would be a gamble with his recent injury history and age(30), but would be mighty handy for 2 years with us in the window.

I do also like Cam Zurhaar(RFA), in the prime of his career at 25 years old, + Will Hayward(25, RFA).

Would not be disappointed if we got 1 of those 3, we do have a long Fagan era history of bringing in good to elite players from other clubs, Cameron, Neale, Dunkley, Daniher, Doedee, Fort, McCarthy, Ah Chee, Lyons.

The limiting factor will probably be our cap situation if we want to retain hugh.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Picking Lyons last night for the sub role. Playing Gardiner up forward. Picking Fort for one game.

Some of it is Fagan also being wedded to a certain structure and style, that is very hard for him to move away from.

We were rebuilding, of course you're moving on older players.

Now we are contending (questionable this season).

I do agree, that you pick your best 22, and that experienced senior players are much prefered over in experienced kids, but sometimes an extended injury list might mean having to play more kids than desired. Still Fagan went back to Lyons on the bench.

Now we didn't lose last night because of Lyons, but Lyons is incapable of making a positive impact any more, but he's still prefered over Robertson or any other young player, or moving the magnets on the board.

We're not rebuilding though, we're desperate to capture some form as quickly as possible. Very short term view at the moment

 

[briztoon]

We're not rebuilding though, we're desperate to capture some form as quickly as possible. Very short term view at the moment

I’m not arguing for (or against) a rebuild.

The discussion was, can we move on from Berry on the wing (whether he is re-signed or not).


As for the tangent on Lyons, I’m definitely in the anti Lyons camp.

 

[martinson]

I’m not arguing for (or against) a rebuild.

The discussion was, can we move on from Berry on the wing (whether he is re-signed or not).


As for the tangent on Lyons, I’m definitely in the anti Lyons camp.

Lyons is cooked I agree.

Zorko and Lester would be in our best 5 players this year. One's 35 and the other took 8 years to cement a spot.

That's the worry.

Whether we can't afford to drop games or we don't think the reserves will ever be good enough we're just not blooding enough young players. I can see the reasons why but whatever, playing Lyons is not the way to go.

 

[Squizz89]

One thing that I hope doesn’t happen is if we are fighting for a spot around 7th-8th later in the year, and as such really no realistic chance to do anything noteworthy come finals, I hope we don’t prioritise older, more experienced guys over some of the kids if it’s a 50/50 call in those last few games, just to perhaps sneak into 8th for example.

In that instance use the games to get experience into those kids and see if we have any players there that might be able to step up next year when Kiddy, Will etc are back after hopefully full preseasons.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Johnnys post is based on our season already being done. But imo it’s when finals are an impossibility. So potentially a long time from now.

Top 4, not finals. No non-Victorian club is winning a flag from outside the top 4. 3+ consecutive weeks travel will be too difficult.

Potential caveat is if the other team from that state does make the top 4 and they coincidentally happen to meet in week 2 or 3 of the finals.

On today's showing by the Suns that won't be happening either.

So on that basis we're about 4 losses away from elimination.

 

[Elixuh]

Top 4, not finals. No non-Victorian club is winning a flag from outside the top 4. 3+ consecutive weeks travel will be too difficult.

Potential caveat is if the other team from that state does make the top 4 and they coincidentally happen to meet in week 2 or 3 of the finals.

On today's showing by the Suns that won't be happening either.

So on that basis we're about 4 losses away from elimination.

I agree it’s a challenge but I’m an optimist. There are plenty of permutations with who makes the 8. You could get lucky and come up against a few scrub teams.

 

[Grasshopper17]

One thing that I hope doesn’t happen is if we are fighting for a spot around 7th-8th later in the year, and as such really no realistic chance to do anything noteworthy come finals, I hope we don’t prioritise older, more experienced guys over some of the kids if it’s a 50/50 call in those last few games, just to perhaps sneak into 8th for example.

In that instance use the games to get experience into those kids and see if we have any players there that might be able to step up next year when Kiddy, Will etc are back after hopefully full preseasons.

Totally agree. If we were a team on the rise with virtually no finals experience like we were in 2019, I could absolutely see the merit in fighting tooth and nail in trying to squeeze into the finals, for the benefit it would give the playing group as a whole.

But right now, as one of the most finals-experienced teams in the comp, I see little benefit in finishing anywhere 5-8. Better to get the tanks out nice and early and maximise our draft haul.

But I think that's at least a couple of losses away still, as frustrating as that interim period might be for us as supporters.

 

[M Malice]

Totally agree. If we were a team on the rise with virtually no finals experience like we were in 2019, I could absolutely see the merit in fighting tooth and nail in trying to squeeze into the finals, for the benefit it would give the playing group as a whole.

But right now, as one of the most finals-experienced teams in the comp, I see little benefit in finishing anywhere 5-8. Better to get the tanks out nice and early and maximise our draft haul.

But I think that's at least a couple of losses away still, as frustrating as that interim period might be for us as supporters.

The problem with that is with Levi Ashcroft widely touted as a top 2-4 prospect unless we finish bottom 2-3 the draft pick we get would be eaten up by the Ashcroft bid anyway.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I agree it’s a challenge but I’m an optimist. There are plenty of permutations with who makes the 8. You could get lucky and come up against a few scrub teams.

So are those within the club I suspect. Most of the time I would say it's an admirable trait but it's shaping up to be to our detriment in 2024, if it means we forgo a potential month or 3 to experiment as several posters are suggesting here.

 

[Nunez]

If we were going to tank, this would be the WORST year to do it.

 

[Grasshopper17]

The problem with that is with Levi Ashcroft widely touted as a top 2-4 prospect unless we finish bottom 2-3 the draft pick we get would be eaten up by the Ashcroft bid anyway.

True, but it might be the difference between our next pick being say 30 as opposed to 40, after taking into account the points Levi would cost.

 

[Grasshopper17]

If we were going to tank, this would be the WORST year to do it.

Why?

 

[Elixuh]

So are those within the club I suspect. Most of the time I would say it's an admirable trait but it's shaping up to be to our detriment in 2024, if it means we forgo a potential month or 3 to experiment as several posters are suggesting here.

Issue is if we are turning an eye to 2025, then all things going well, our immediate ins are Doedee, Coleman, Will Ashcroft and top 5 pick in Levi - without needing any experimentation.

This entire conversation started on the basis of a view that we should get rid of Berry without consideration as to who might replace him or the cost of retaining him. When he was one of our best on the last 2 weeks.

 

[Nunez]

Why?

How many live picks do you actually expect us to have?

Edit: and honestly, tanking is a culture killer and ****ing gross. I get the draft is fun but that attitude is not conducive to success.

 

[Elixuh]

True, but it might be the difference between our next pick being say 30 as opposed to 40, after taking into account the points Levi would cost.

But our next pick is going to be eaten up by academy bids

 

[M Malice]

But our next pick is going to be eaten up by academy bids

Unless we can get a top 2-3 pick in the draft the picks we have mean virtually nothing, we will be able to match the bids for L.Ashcroft and Marshall with multiple 2nd/3rd round picks ... unless the AFL stupidly change the matching system this year and then we just keep our own first round selection.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Issue is if we are turning an eye to 2025, then all things going well, our immediate ins are Doedee, Coleman, Will Ashcroft and top 5 pick in Levi - without needing any experimentation.

This entire conversation started on the basis of a view that we should get rid of Berry without consideration as to who might replace him or the cost of retaining him. When he was one of our best on the last 2 weeks.

I would like to keep Berry also. Think he's been pretty good the last few weeks, altho I do wish he was more aware of his limitations and had a bit more faith in his non-preferred foot.

Having said that I think if we get to say 4-8 at the bye, it would be foolish to simply keep selecting our best 23 every week in their best positions. Or what the coaches consider to be the best 23 and their best positions.

If nothing else it would be a great opportunity for multiple players to learn multiple roles, and far better to do it in-game instead of at training.

 

[Elixuh]

Unless we can get a top 2-3 pick in the draft the picks we have mean virtually nothing, we will be able to match the bids for L.Ashcroft and Marshall with multiple 2nd/3rd round picks ... unless the AFL stupidly change the matching system this year and then we just keep our own first round selection.

Based on current projections we would need pick 2 to make sure it’s not wasted. We aren’t going to be worse than north hawks and wce so it’s all moot point

 

[Grasshopper17]

How many live picks do you actually expect us to have?

Edit: and honestly, tanking is a culture killer and ******* gross. I get the draft is fun but that attitude is not conducive to success.

I'm ok with that. Don't call it tanking then. Call it learning.