List Mgmt. 2025 List Management 📃

[DangerousD]

He’s probably the best there is

Then there is Elliot
Bobby hill
Rankine
Curtis
Wizard
Willi Rioli
Liam Ryan

Who else?
Who is gettable?

Callum Ah Chee is out of contract
Zac Bailey is a free agent next year
McMullin, Wardius, Thomas, Bedford, Gothard at GWS (one might be squeezed or want greater opportunity)
Malcolm Rosas at GC

I think one or more of the GWS guys will want to move on and we should be in their ear and then going all in on a FA next year, Bailey, Fritsch, Ryan, Greene, Miers, Byrne-Jones, Chayce Jones.

We also need to draft some of these types ourselves

 

[Garters]

A lack of cash isn’t the reason they won’t be bringing in 3 youngsters. Every club would be trying to do that but it’s harder to put names to it and what draft picks you would need to get them.

Not saying it is a lack of cash, saying that even if they are bringing in youngsters. Don't spend 1.7m on a ruckman. Bring in 3 more youngsters on top across multiple lines. Watching them last night a good ruck was the last of their problems.
There is a suite of top end talent that are on the periphery of there respective 22's with a few years under their belt. That's where I would be starting, esp midfielders. Fertile hunting ground come end of this season.

 

[circusdevil]

You were referencing Stocker as if he’s gone on to bigger and better things at St Kilda. The bloke still cannot run out of sight on a dark night and is barely surviving as a half back.

No - it was the opposite, i nver suggested bigger and better things, I said despite his lack of tank he still can get a weekly run in the AFL. Moir levaes him for dead in the AFL quality stakes and people are writing him off. Moir is a rare talent ... if he doesn't make it, then that is a failing of the club. Lesser players with faults have made a 'career'. Moir gets a bad wrap on her because he is extremely talented ... how about we celebrate his massive assets instead of focussing on the minor fauklts that allowed us to be in a position to actually draft him. The kid has star written all over him. Back him in!

 

[ferrisb]

I hear they are trading out Thilthorpe or Forgarty. They have too many talls.

Mek minnut we end up with Tex Walker...

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Not saying it is a lack of cash, saying that even if they are bringing in youngsters. Don't spend 1.7m on a ruckman. Bring in 3 more youngsters on top across multiple lines. Watching them last night a good ruck was the last of their problems.
There is a suite of top end talent that are on the periphery of there respective 22's with a few years under their belt. That's where I would be starting, esp midfielders. Fertile hunting ground come end of this season.

I’m pretty sure they are trying that though. That’s why they get linked to guys like Bergman, Aleer and Kemp. They have money to burn so TDK is just taking some of that, it’s not stopping them making any other moves.

 

[Gointocarlton]

I'd be throwing the kitchen sink at Weddle. Just what we need in the backline.

Absolute gun and their barometer. He is the one who takes crucial contested marks, breaks lines with his run/carry and can pinch hit forward. Contain him and you go a long way to beating Haw.

 

[btdg]

Something randomly on my mind last night watching a couple of teams who have leap-frogged us into contention... why is our club so utterly incapable of developing 'good role players'.

If you look at the category of 'players who will play 150+ games, but never be AA level' at our club, we have a heap that we have traded for: Newman, McGovern, Williams, Fantasia, Acres, Hewett, Pittonet, Fogarty etc.

WE also have a pretty good track record of drafting and developing stars (AA or better). Currently on the list we have: Cripps, Curnow, Weitering, McKay, Walsh (plus Docherty and Saad who were only AA at Carlton).

But if you look at the next tier down - good career role players, I can really only see two who are definitely at that level: Jack Silvagni

1

Jack Silvagni

Age

27

Ht

194cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.9

4star

MG

176.9

3star

D

5.3

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

1.3

1star

M

1.7

2star

T

0.7

1star

MG

91.0

2star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.8

5star

MG

131.4

3star

and Tom De Koning

12

Tom De Koning

Age

26

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

2star

HO

1.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

1.5

5star

. One of those is about to become the highest paid player in the league and could definitely reach AA/Star level in a year or two. The other is an untradeable, third generation Carlton player whose father was the list manager for his development period. Kemp could go either way, depending on how he comes back from injury, I guess.

Beyond that... absolute zilch. There's a sub-category of list fillers - players good enough to be backups or journeymen who won't get to 150-200 games (Cottrell, Boyd, Cincotta).

.

But then go back and look at the drafts from Cripps --> Kemp (2013-2019) and the sheer number of players we drafted in that time... and fact that we come out of that with 5 (or 6) All Australians, one father son, and MAYBE one other good role player...

Here's the list for the curious:
- Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne, Boekhurst, Viojo-Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell, Cuningham, Glass-McClasker, Galluci, Korcheck, Petrevski-Seton, Fisher, Macreadie, Polson, Williamson Kerr, LeBois, Dow, O'Brien, Schumacher, Stocker, O'Dwyer, Silvagni, Deluca, Philp, Ramsay, Honey, Phillips

37 players drafted across 7 years. Holman, Fisher, Stocker, and maybe Dow reach 'serviceable role player' level at other clubs. Cuningham and SPS probably could have if not for injury and other factors.

But man, that is bleak. IT reinforces me again just how crazy black and white our club is in everything. Our players are either stars or fall out of the system. we don't seem to be able to just sit on guys and have them slowly cook into good solid role players. We've actually done an ok job of finding guys at other clubs to fill those gaps, but the issue there is that you have to overpay (in draft picks and money) to get them and once that well ran dry, we haven't been able to fill our list with players coming through of our own, and, well, here we are...

Just food for thought. I think ee also have some younger guys where it seems hard to tell but who look like they could be that... Hollands, Motlop, Cowan, Lord. But still a long way off... I think this is as big a reason for our struggles as any.

 

[agro]

Something randomly on my mind last night watching a couple of teams who have leap-frogged us into contention... why is our club so utterly incapable of developing 'good role players'.

If you look at the category of 'players who will play 150+ games, but never be AA level' at our club, we have a heap that we have traded for: Newman, McGovern, Williams, Fantasia, Acres, Hewett, Pittonet, Fogarty etc.

WE also have a pretty good track record of drafting and developing stars (AA or better). Currently on the list we have: Cripps, Curnow, Weitering, McKay, Walsh (plus Docherty and Saad who were only AA at Carlton).

But if you look at the next tier down - good career role players, I can really only see two who are definitely at that level: Jack Silvagni and Tom De Koning. One of those is about to become the highest paid player in the league and could definitely reach AA/Star level in a year or two. The other is an untradeable, third generation Carlton player whose father was the list manager for his development period. Kemp could go either way, depending on how he comes back from injury, I guess.

Beyond that... absolute zilch. There's a sub-category of list fillers - players good enough to be backups or journeymen who won't get to 150-200 games (Cottrell, Boyd, Cincotta).

.

But then go back and look at the drafts from Cripps --> Kemp (2013-2019) and the sheer number of players we drafted in that time... and fact that we come out of that with 5 (or 6) All Australians, one father son, and MAYBE one other good role player...

Here's the list for the curious:
- Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne, Boekhurst, Viojo-Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell, Cuningham, Glass-McClasker, Galluci, Korcheck, Petrevski-Seton, Fisher, Macreadie, Polson, Williamson Kerr, LeBois, Dow, O'Brien, Schumacher, Stocker, O'Dwyer, Silvagni, Deluca, Philp, Ramsay, Honey, Phillips

37 players drafted across 7 years. Holman, Fisher, Stocker, and maybe Dow reach 'serviceable role player' level at other clubs. Cuningham and SPS probably could have if not for injury and other factors.

But man, that is bleak. IT reinforces me again just how crazy black and white our club is in everything. Our players are either stars or fall out of the system. we don't seem to be able to just sit on guys and have them slowly cook into good solid role players. We've actually done an ok job of finding guys at other clubs to fill those gaps, but the issue there is that you have to overpay (in draft picks and money) to get them and once that well ran dry, we haven't been able to fill our list with players coming through of our own, and, well, here we are...

Just food for thought. I think ee also have some younger guys where it seems hard to tell but who look like they could be that... Hollands, Motlop, Cowan, Lord. But still a long way off... I think this is as big a reason for our struggles as any.

It’s been a point of discussion for years - our drafting has been generally terrible excluding our number one draft picks going back to Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer and Number 2 in Walker - our first rounders have been terrible (other than Cripps) and our second and third rounders ordinary, other than for probably Kade Simpson and Tom De Koning.

Our selections have been generally overreach’s or lacking in logic.

We spend the remainder of our resources in the following years trading for players to make up for our drafting mistakes.

However having said all that - I take the point that we have drafted from the available Under 18 talent pool and the majority of those selections have been All-Australian Under 18 players so they are not devoid of talent or ability, so our player development must also be questioned.

Again I look at other sides who have leap frogged us in the last 12 months like Hawthorn and Adelaide - their game last night albeit scrappy was played at high intensity and a level of desperation over four quarters which we can only dream about. What have Adelaide and Hawthorn done in their player development and coaching to bring themselves to being realistic top 4 contenders that we haven’t done.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Something randomly on my mind last night watching a couple of teams who have leap-frogged us into contention... why is our club so utterly incapable of developing 'good role players'.

If you look at the category of 'players who will play 150+ games, but never be AA level' at our club, we have a heap that we have traded for: Newman, McGovern, Williams, Fantasia, Acres, Hewett, Pittonet, Fogarty etc.

WE also have a pretty good track record of drafting and developing stars (AA or better). Currently on the list we have: Cripps, Curnow, Weitering, McKay, Walsh (plus Docherty and Saad who were only AA at Carlton).

But if you look at the next tier down - good career role players, I can really only see two who are definitely at that level: Jack Silvagni and Tom De Koning. One of those is about to become the highest paid player in the league and could definitely reach AA/Star level in a year or two. The other is an untradeable, third generation Carlton player whose father was the list manager for his development period. Kemp could go either way, depending on how he comes back from injury, I guess.

Beyond that... absolute zilch. There's a sub-category of list fillers - players good enough to be backups or journeymen who won't get to 150-200 games (Cottrell, Boyd, Cincotta).

.

But then go back and look at the drafts from Cripps --> Kemp (2013-2019) and the sheer number of players we drafted in that time... and fact that we come out of that with 5 (or 6) All Australians, one father son, and MAYBE one other good role player...

Here's the list for the curious:
- Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne, Boekhurst, Viojo-Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell, Cuningham, Glass-McClasker, Galluci, Korcheck, Petrevski-Seton, Fisher, Macreadie, Polson, Williamson Kerr, LeBois, Dow, O'Brien, Schumacher, Stocker, O'Dwyer, Silvagni, Deluca, Philp, Ramsay, Honey, Phillips

37 players drafted across 7 years. Holman, Fisher, Stocker, and maybe Dow reach 'serviceable role player' level at other clubs. Cuningham and SPS probably could have if not for injury and other factors.

But man, that is bleak. IT reinforces me again just how crazy black and white our club is in everything. Our players are either stars or fall out of the system. we don't seem to be able to just sit on guys and have them slowly cook into good solid role players. We've actually done an ok job of finding guys at other clubs to fill those gaps, but the issue there is that you have to overpay (in draft picks and money) to get them and once that well ran dry, we haven't been able to fill our list with players coming through of our own, and, well, here we are...

Just food for thought. I think ee also have some younger guys where it seems hard to tell but who look like they could be that... Hollands, Motlop, Cowan, Lord. But still a long way off... I think this is as big a reason for our struggles as any.

This is just peak silliness. We can't develop role players?

Just because we traded them in doesn't mean we didn't develop them.

Kennedy, Newman, Docherty, Hewett, Fogarty, Elijah, Pittonet... All were at the club long before they became respectable players in their own rights.

I guess Cottrell, Boyd, Lord, Cincotta, Kemp, Durdin, Jack, Ollie and Dow, Fisher etc before that weren't/aren't AFL standard role players

Get your Carlton loathing glasses off and find some level of sensibility.

 

[DangerousD]

Not saying it is a lack of cash, saying that even if they are bringing in youngsters. Don't spend 1.7m on a ruckman. Bring in 3 more youngsters on top across multiple lines. Watching them last night a good ruck was the last of their problems.
There is a suite of top end talent that are on the periphery of there respective 22's with a few years under their belt. That's where I would be starting, esp midfielders. Fertile hunting ground come end of this season.

The allure of TDK for SOS and the Saints is that he’s free, they can then use their first pick on youth, it’s too much for a ruck but the ability to improve your team and add youth is solid.

Who knows how much $$$ they have spare

 

[DangerousD]

Again I look at other sides who have leap frogged us in the last 12 months like Hawthorn and Adelaide - their game last night albeit scrappy was played at high intensity and a level of desperation over four quarters which we can only dream about. What have Adelaide and Hawthorn done in their player development and coaching to bring themselves to being realistic top 4 contenders that we haven’t done.

Let’s touch on Adelaide and why I think they have leapfrogged us.

When Adelaide traded for established players with good picks, they have got Dawson and Rankine, two gun players, they then nailed the Thilthorpe and Rachelle picks.

Compare to Cerra and Saad who we paid more for than Dawson and Rankine.

People crap on Reid for his deal with Gibbs, but it seemed he learnt from that and he squeezed the Swans in Dawson.

It also helps that they could afford last year to add three solid players in ANB, Peartling and the GWS player

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Let’s touch on Adelaide and why I think they have leapfrogged us.

When Adelaide traded for established players with good picks, they have got Dawson and Rankine, two gun players, they then nailed the Thilthorpe and Rachelle picks.

Compare to Cerra and Saad who we paid more for than Dawson and Rankine.

People crap on Reid for his deal with Gibbs, but it seemed he learnt from that and he squeezed the Swans in Dawson.

It also helps that they could afford last year to add three solid players in ANB, Peartling and the GWS player

We could probably afford to bring in some names to fill targeted holes in our list too. Somehow every player who fits the bill is magically deemed overpriced, washed up, crap or not a need by this board though.

Who would have thought players who have some line breaking speed and kicking talent would be so controversial when our list is the most one paced list in the AFL almost entirely devoid of either trait.

 

[JJBagger]

Let’s touch on Adelaide and why I think they have leapfrogged us.

When Adelaide traded for established players with good picks, they have got Dawson and Rankine, two gun players, they then nailed the Thilthorpe and Rachelle picks.

Compare to Cerra and Saad who we paid more for than Dawson and Rankine.

People crap on Reid for his deal with Gibbs, but it seemed he learnt from that and he squeezed the Swans in Dawson.

It also helps that they could afford last year to add three solid players in ANB, Peartling and the GWS player

Adelaide traded pick 5 for Rankine. That’s more than what we traded for Cerra or Saad. They also are yet to achieve anything. So it’s hard to say they’ve “leapfrogged us”

 

[DangerousD]

TDK is a really good player entering his prime, If he leaves unless we are aggressive the quality of the list decreases.

Even if we take that single pick to the draft or trade it for a single player, unless that players output is better than Toms, then we are behind.

We need two players out of any departure, going off last years trade period we could add ANB and Peatling and still have points left over if we ended up with pick 8.

Trades like that will grow the list

 

[DangerousD]

We could probably afford to bring in some names to fill targeted holes in our list too. Somehow every player who fits the bill is magically deemed overpriced, washed up, crap or not a need by this board though.

Who would have thought players who have some line breaking speed and kicking talent would be so controversial when our list is the most one paced list in the AFL almost entirely devoid of either trait.

I keep referencing ANB and Peatling as types that would be great for us and the trade price is a great reference.

With clubs needing to get ahead of bids or need points for academy players I see pick 8 being worth 2 second rounders and a 3rd.

That’s two players we could bring in of the quality of the two I mentioned.

 

[DangerousD]

Adelaide traded pick 5 for Rankine. That’s more than what we traded for Cerra or Saad. They also are yet to achieve anything. So it’s hard to say they’ve “leapfrogged us”

We paid more for Cerra and Saad by a long way than what Adelaide paid for Rankine and Dawson, edit maybe not a long way but a bit.

Dawson is one of the best players in the league, my point was they got two stars for their picks

Crows gave 5, a 3rd and a 4th
GC gave Rankine and 3rd

Adelaide gave pick 17
Syd gave Dawson

We gave 8 for Saad and got 48 back
We gave 6 and 46 for Cerra

 

[JJBagger]

We paid more for Cerra and Saad by a long way than what Adelaide paid for Rankine and Dawson

Crows gave 5, a 3rd and a 4th
GC gave Rankine and 3rd

Adelaide gave pick 17
Syd gave Dawson

We gave 8 for Saad and got 48 back
We gave 6 and 46 for Cerra

“A long way” is a bit hyperbolic. Combined it’s more, but individually, they paid more for Rankine than either of our trades. Dawson was a bargain, but he also wasn’t going anywhere other than SA, so they had the upper hand

 

[btdg]

This is just peak silliness. We can't develop role players?

Just because we traded them in doesn't mean we didn't develop them.

Kennedy, Newman, Docherty, Hewett, Fogarty, Elijah, Pittonet... All were at the club long before they became respectable players in their own rights.

I guess Cottrell, Boyd, Lord, Cincotta, Kemp, Durdin, Jack, Ollie and Dow, Fisher etc before that weren't/aren't AFL standard role players

Get your Carlton loathing glasses off and find some level of sensibility.

First off, no need to for that tone. I'm not loathing Carlton, just lamenting what appears a major contributing factor to our current list issues. I'm also talking about good, long-term quality role players.

So then, answer the question: who was the last player drafted by Carlton who played 100 games for the club without winning an All Australian award? not one of the players you list meets that criteria or will hit it this year. Even if you include the players traded from other clubs, only Newman has played 100 games and not won AA.

Jack Silvagni has, but he is Carlton royalty and his dad was the list manager. TDK could potentially get there this season if he plays every game.

Then the only one is Zac Fisher in 2016 (I misread his stats before my last post but he got to 107) who is no longer at the club.

Then it is back to Levi Casboult in 2010 (and Ed Curnow the same year, although he was on Adelaide's list, I think he counts).

ONE player in 15 years who wasn't a F/S was drafted by the club and played 100 games as a role player. If you must include players we traded for early in their career you can add Lachie Plowman, and if you really, really stretch Nick Newman (but he was 25 and had 3 years at the Swans = pretty well formed by that point)

As a comparison, Geelong (the gold standard for most things) currently have 9 players on their list who were drafted by the club, have played 100+ games and never made an AA team. That's a lot of stability across the field to build around that we don't have. Just a bunch of guys who have gone out and done their job week in, week out for a long time.

 

[BlueTongue]

Hmm I’m not sure

I’m thinking small forward

Remember we’re getting the ball into f50 quite a bit but not scoring…need to improve f50 imo.

Yes and no. I think our biggest issue forward (apart from delivery into F50) is the way our forwards play. Utter ClusterF#%. A better forward coach should be able teach then to find space as well as better ball movement into F50.

If Durdin and Motlop can remain consistent, along with Fog & White, we are OK. We have a bit of depth there.
But, Nick Haynes will only have another year at most, McGovern is unreliable, so we need that running half back that can intercept before they go. I think it's more urgent TBH.

 

[Accidental genius]

Yes and no. I think our biggest issue forward (apart from delivery into F50) is the way our forwards play. Utter ClusterF#%. A better forward coach should be able teach then to find space as well as better ball movement into F50.

If Durdin and Motlop can remain consistent, along with Fog & White, we are OK. We have a bit of depth there.
But, Nick Haynes will only have another year at most, McGovern is unreliable, so we need that running half back that can intercept before they go. I think it's more urgent TBH.

HB are easier to find…dime a dozen

Small forwards like Pickett Elliot etc??

Very hard to find. (Durdin motlops etc are taking us nowhere unfortunately)

Plus…small forward instantly makes us better thru more scoring per f50 entry.

Can keep an eye out for a HB too..

 

[Juice030103]

Honestly, happy to let go of Walsh for draft capital

 

[Blue_Fusion]

First off, no need to for that tone. I'm not loathing Carlton, just lamenting what appears a major contributing factor to our current list issues. I'm also talking about good, long-term quality role players.

So then, answer the question: who was the last player drafted by Carlton who played 100 games for the club without winning an All Australian award? not one of the players you list meets that criteria or will hit it this year. Even if you include the players traded from other clubs, only Newman has played 100 games and not won AA.

Jack Silvagni has, but he is Carlton royalty and his dad was the list manager. TDK could potentially get there this season if he plays every game.

Then the only one is Zac Fisher in 2016 (I misread his stats before my last post but he got to 107) who is no longer at the club.

Then it is back to Levi Casboult in 2010 (and Ed Curnow the same year, although he was on Adelaide's list, I think he counts).

ONE player in 15 years who wasn't a F/S was drafted by the club and played 100 games as a role player. If you must include players we traded for early in their career you can add Lachie Plowman, and if you really, really stretch Nick Newman (but he was 25 and had 3 years at the Swans = pretty well formed by that point)

As a comparison, Geelong (the gold standard for most things) currently have 9 players on their list who were drafted by the club, have played 100+ games and never made an AA team. That's a lot of stability across the field to build around that we don't have. Just a bunch of guys who have gone out and done their job week in, week out for a long time.

Ollie will... not sure he'll ever be AA.

I'm confident HOF will play 100+, not sure if he'll be AA.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Honestly, happy to let go of Walsh for draft capital

Correct move. But not this year... we need to let him walk as a FA next year.

Even if we don't finish last, we're not going to be playing finals after losing TDK. The compo pick will be very valuable for trading in a really good player.

 

[gab213]

Correct move. But not this year... we need to let him walk as a FA next year.

Even if we don't finish last, we're not going to be playing finals after losing TDK. The compo pick will be very valuable for trading in a really good player.

There's a real chance that he retires anyway. He's been struggling all season.

 

[gab213]

First off, no need to for that tone. I'm not loathing Carlton, just lamenting what appears a major contributing factor to our current list issues. I'm also talking about good, long-term quality role players.

So then, answer the question: who was the last player drafted by Carlton who played 100 games for the club without winning an All Australian award? not one of the players you list meets that criteria or will hit it this year. Even if you include the players traded from other clubs, only Newman has played 100 games and not won AA.

Jack Silvagni has, but he is Carlton royalty and his dad was the list manager. TDK could potentially get there this season if he plays every game.

Then the only one is Zac Fisher in 2016 (I misread his stats before my last post but he got to 107) who is no longer at the club.

Then it is back to Levi Casboult in 2010 (and Ed Curnow the same year, although he was on Adelaide's list, I think he counts).

ONE player in 15 years who wasn't a F/S was drafted by the club and played 100 games as a role player. If you must include players we traded for early in their career you can add Lachie Plowman, and if you really, really stretch Nick Newman (but he was 25 and had 3 years at the Swans = pretty well formed by that point)

As a comparison, Geelong (the gold standard for most things) currently have 9 players on their list who were drafted by the club, have played 100+ games and never made an AA team. That's a lot of stability across the field to build around that we don't have. Just a bunch of guys who have gone out and done their job week in, week out for a long time.

I don't think that being selected in the AA team really is a valuable metric when judging a player's achievements, not even the Brownlow to be honest. I tend to pay more attention to those who win or rate highly the B&Fs at their clubs.