List Mgmt. 2025 List Management

[serial_thrilla]

 

[Joao]

You don’t solve a problem and create actually the same problem at the same time.

My preference would be for Ryan to go if anyone. He’s slowed our ball movement down for years.

I don't think we can or should play AP, Draper and Cox in the same team with or without Ryan.

Ryan is effective aerially as the 3rd tall.

 

[Alfonz]

You don’t solve a problem and create actually the same problem at the same time.

My preference would be for Ryan to go if anyone. He’s slowed our ball movement down for years.

I don't think Ryan is the problem. If he had a coach that drilled into him to move the ball on quickly, then he would do so.

Look at how Clark plays. His natural instinct would be to run and gun, but he is often second guessing and going sideways.

The players are too scared to move the ball with any kind of risk, and that is on the coach.

 

[s_wd6]

Pure guesswork, but I feel like Ryan is more popular amongst the group.

Someone is going to need to make the call at some stage, because if they don't, it'll just be awkward trying to fit them all in for a season or two before one of them finally gets dropped and asks for a trade anyway.

A lot easier if it's Ryan. 30 year old with 2 years left vs 26 year old with 6 years left with a new baby and WA based partner/family.

I feel like you don't lose much either way you go. I personally don't rate Ryan and reckon his AA selection last year was farcical. Meanwhile Cox hasn't been good since 2022 and is very injury prone and hasn't had an injury free season since 2022.

Think they'd fetch about the same on the trade table. Cox younger and contracted for longer vs Ryan the better player and 2x AA.

 

[Joao]

A lot easier if it's Ryan. 30 year old with 2 years left vs 26 year old with 6 years left with a new baby and WA based partner/family.

I feel like you don't lose much either way you go. I personally don't rate Ryan and reckon his AA selection last year was farcical. Meanwhile Cox hasn't been good since 2022 and is very injury prone and hasn't had an injury free season since 2022.

Think they'd fetch about the same on the trade table. Cox younger and contracted for longer vs Ryan the better player and 2x AA.

Yeah but I don't think you can play Cox, AP and Draper so it's moot. At least Ryan is actually a third tall. Agree that his AA last year was sketchy but Cox was genuinely terrible last year. I think Ryan is a better footballer

Also, no chance the 26 yo KPD isn't worth more than the 30yo anything. We might get a 2nd for Ryan. Cox is first rounder all day as long as we pretend we want to keep him.

 

[s_wd6]

Yeah but I don't think you can play Cox, AP and Draper so it's moot. At least Ryan is actually a third tall. Agree that his AA last year was sketchy but Cox was genuinely terrible last year. I think Ryan is a better footballer

Also, no chance the 26 yo KPD isn't worth more than the 30yo anything. We might get a 2nd for Ryan. Cox is first rounder all day as long as we pretend we want to keep him.

Draper would be the one playing 3rd tall in this scenario.

Cox was terrible but he was always going to be after zero preseason followed by the hammy. He did look a lot better in the pre season games but then reverted to shit last week.

Also just look at what Eagles got for Barrass. First second and a third rounder. Same age as Ryan. Ryan has AAs.

 

[Joao]

Draper would be the one playing 3rd tall in this scenario.

Cox was terrible but he was always going to be after zero preseason followed by the hammy. He did look a lot better in the pre season games but then reverted to shit last week.

Also just look at what Eagles got for Barrass. First second and a third rounder. Same age as Ryan. Ryan has AAs.

I prefer Draper as the 2nd tall.

Like Ryan last year, I have no idea how Cox was AA squad in 22.

Isn't that helping my argument? Cox is younger than Barass and has been in the AA squad. KPDs are worth more than flankers. Ryan isn't getting KPD prices, he'd get flanker prices, and that's 2nd rounders for 30 yo. Houston only got a late first and he's better and younger.

 

[s_wd6]

I prefer Draper as the 2nd tall.

Like Ryan last year, I have no idea how Cox was AA squad in 22.

Isn't that helping my argument? Cox is younger than Barass and has been in the AA squad. KPDs are worth more than flankers. Ryan isn't getting KPD prices, he'd get flanker prices, and that's 2nd rounders for 30 yo. Houston only got a late first and he's better and younger.

Cox AA squad in 2022 was much more reflective of his season than Ryan 2024. He finished 2nd in our b&f in a finals team. Ryan didn’t even make top 6 last year.

Trade price is also about the teams involved. But bottom line, Ryan is the better player by enough that we would get similar for both despite all the other factors.

End of the day, we can both agree one needs to go. It’s just a lot more realistic that Ryan would be that one.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Every other game I've watched has further cemented my opinion that shoe-horning Draper, Cox, Ryan and Pearce into a backline is just not going to work. There is not enough speed or good enough ball users.

Additionally I don't think the midfield has enough size and Sharp and Noddy are too poor a kick when Brayshaw and Serong are good enough but not elite.

Fear not, I have scoured the BF threads and stolen a bunch of ideas to solve the problem:
1) Get Pickett. Massive upgrade on Switta offensively while losing minimal defensively.
2) One of Simpson or Switta must move back. Possibly both depending on where what we have in Whan.
3) Cox goes forward permanently. Ill die on hill he's better up there than down back.
4) Jackson becomes the ruck/mid he's supposed to be (needs Darcy on the park)
5) We can not carry ball butcher wings without incredible kicks in the middle to offset. Chappy goes to a wing. Only one of Noddy and Sharp allowed.

There, Freo solved

Yeah I agree with your thrust. The midfield and defence are a bunch of really good or developing players who are all great but don't work well together.

Defence I think has gone from being a strength to a question mark. Pearce is still far and away our best 1 on 1 defender but slowing down and losing more contests lately. Cox has been hampered by injury the last 18 months. Ryan is the Tom Rockliffe of defenders. I would punt him.

Midfield outside of Young has no real dynamic aspect to it. Serong can win a contested ball against anyone in the league but doesn't have an elite second skill. Bolton + 1 of Warner/Pickett rotating through changes the dynamic a bit.

I think broadly my worries about Jackson have come to pass too. Still arguing about his best position 2 years in (3rd KPF, 2nd ruck for me). Not impacting enough as a free to roam forward flank/2nd ruck, not good enough as a 1st ruck. I think he's played enough with Darcy that we can see that. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Good chance it is all just gameplan/coaching though, I think that's a bigger issue.

I don't think we can or should play AP, Draper and Cox in the same team with or without Ryan.

Ryan is effective aerially as the 3rd tall.

Is he though. It's been a couple of years really since I thought wow he's been good in the air today.

 

[ilikepotatoes]

With the injury history of Cox and Pearce - and the fact that AP almost certainly ends up at Tasmania - it would be stupid to trade any of those 4.

 

[CaseySibosadoHOF]

Is the trade talk not getting a bit silly?

If it turns out that Draper is difficult to fit in the team and is still worse than the "starting" talls...just don't play him. He's only just turned 21, is contracted to 2027. By the time he's OOC, he'll be best 22 anyways: he'll either be versatile enough to start or 1 of the others will fall off with age. And if he leapfrogs 1 of the talls and you can't play all of them...don't play that tall. If they force the issue I guess you trade them, but not for the sake of it.

Personally, I'd rather be 2 injuries away from playing Hugh Davies than 1 injury away from playing Hugh Davies.

 

[Docker82]

I don't think we can or should play AP, Draper and Cox in the same team with or without Ryan.

Ryan is effective aerially as the 3rd tall.

Most teams play three key defenders or at least two key defenders and a third tall.

Absolutely think that Pearce, Cox and Draper can and would work without Ryan in the side.

 

[Docker82]

I don't think Ryan is the problem. If he had a coach that drilled into him to move the ball on quickly, then he would do so.

Look at how Clark plays. His natural instinct would be to run and gun, but he is often second guessing and going sideways.

The players are too scared to move the ball with any kind of risk, and that is on the coach.

There’s a bit of both there. Ryan wasn’t moving the ball quickly when Ross Lyon was coach. It’s just got worse.

 

[pK75]

Is the trade talk not getting a bit silly?

If it turns out that Draper is difficult to fit in the team and is still worse than the "starting" talls...just don't play him. He's only just turned 21, is contracted to 2027. By the time he's OOC, he'll be best 22 anyways: he'll either be versatile enough to start or 1 of the others will fall off with age. And if he leapfrogs 1 of the talls and you can't play all of them...don't play that tall. If they force the issue I guess you trade them, but not for the sake of it.

Personally, I'd rather be 2 injuries away from playing Hugh Davies than 1 injury away from playing Hugh Davies.

Agree with this, don’t buy the “he’s too good to play for Peel” line. When he overtakes Ryan or Cox he gets a game, until then, he plays for peel until one of them is injured, which is likely sooner rather than later in the case of Pearce and Cox.

 

[Docker82]

Agree with this, don’t buy the “he’s too good to play for Peel” line. When he overtakes Ryan or Cox he gets a game, until then, he plays for peel until one of them is injured, which is likely sooner rather than later in the case of Pearce and Cox.

If he plays for Peel he’s getting big money offers and walking out the door this year or next. Have people seen the market for KPDs in recent years? The guy was just picked in All Australian under 22 at 20 years old - The line of clubs in for him would be massive.

This doesn’t necessarily mean picking him is 100% the right move btw.

 

[nurries]

There’s a bit of both there. Ryan wasn’t moving the ball quickly when Ross Lyon was coach. It’s just got worse.

He needs to watch Bailey Dale

 

[Taylor]

What if Draper doesn't have to play as a tall defender and can instead just be a defender who is tall?

 

[go_the_dockers]

What if Draper doesn't have to play as a tall defender and can instead just be a defender who is tall?

Too slow
Skills aren't good we enough.
Does not provide enough rebound

Would you rather Jed McVee or Draper as our 4th tall.

 

[Joao]

Too many replies, I'll just put it here and leave it there.

Draper is agile for someone 197cm, but not especially agile for a footballer. I think having him as a 2nd tall instead of 3rd tall is a competitive advantage. Rolling out 3 196cm+ kpds when we consistently get out pressured is just dumb.

And there is no way anyone can convince me Ryan would fetch anywhere near as much as Cox in trade unless I saw it happen.

I'll also die on the hill that, warts and all, Ryan is better than Cox unless Cox has some gears left to move through.

 

[Lach72]

I don't think Ryan is the problem. If he had a coach that drilled into him to move the ball on quickly, then he would do so.

Look at how Clark plays. His natural instinct would be to run and gun, but he is often second guessing and going sideways.

The players are too scared to move the ball with any kind of risk, and that is on the coach.

I tend to agree.
Cox, Pearce and Draper are not a problem, particularly Draper.

The coach is a dud

 

[King Huskii]

No teams field 8 or 9 defenders in.a match. You don't win games with a team full of back pockets

 

[Lach72]

Something I’d like us to learn from Hawthorn.

Kicking skill is THE priority.

They beat us in the GF because of it, they’re building a team around it now.

Elite kicking skills covers a lot of sins.

Players like Erasmus, even O’Driscoll, do not fit this mold.
We have two, possibly 3 elite kicks. Young, Treacy, Bolton maybe. Sonny but he is gone

 

[Footskill]

Something I’d like us to learn from Hawthorn.

Kicking skill is THE priority.

They beat us in the GF because of it, they’re building a team around it now.

Elite kicking skills covers a lot of sins.

Players like Erasmus, even O’Driscoll, do not fit this mold.
We have two, possibly 3 elite kicks. Young, Treacy, Bolton maybe. Sonny but he is gone

Think you need to include elite handballing too.

Many attacking chains break down due to errant kick or handball that misses the target putting the next person under pressure. On alot of cases these are with no or limited pressure. To do it under extreme pressure is elite.

Good example was the hawks game where I think out of the back half under pressure and with the man in target followed in close proximity still managed to hit him

 

[blue shark]

Something I’d like us to learn from Hawthorn.

Kicking skill is THE priority.

They beat us in the GF because of it, they’re building a team around it now.

Elite kicking skills covers a lot of sins.

Players like Erasmus, even O’Driscoll, do not fit this mold.
We have two, possibly 3 elite kicks. Young, Treacy, Bolton maybe. Sonny but he is gone

Seen enough of Simpson, Reid to see them lowering their eyes, or thinking it through.
Add Bolton, Chapman, I’d say it’s more natural footy players and reading of the play.
Also Hawks do the skill work, but add that mean streak, you need both to succeed.
You need the muscle to do the heavy lifting.
Freo handball themselves into trouble, won’t stand up in the tackle. Pretty easy to
herd them or go sideways. Going straight and through the middle opens up the field.
Of coarse you going to look good with fast ball and multiple attacking options.
Treacy, Serong, Young are the only players with some grit, that’s defeatist before you
even start.

 

[Purpletown]

I'll also die on the hill that, warts and all, Ryan is better than Cox unless Cox has some gears left to move through.

As far as gears go Ryan is an old fashioned three on the tree with no syncro on first gear. Cox is a box full of neutrals.

 

[DocT]

Something I’d like us to learn from Hawthorn.

Kicking skill is THE priority.

They beat us in the GF because of it, they’re building a team around it now.

Elite kicking skills covers a lot of sins.

Players like Erasmus, even O’Driscoll, do not fit this mold.
We have two, possibly 3 elite kicks. Young, Treacy, Bolton maybe. Sonny but he is gone

Couldn't agree more.
I think elite kicking/passing has two components:
1. The ability to make the ball go where you want it to go. And you have to be able to do this when pressured/off balance/exhausted/in pain etc.
2. Knowing where the ball should go. This is the 4D chess part of the skill. Not just being able to find the person that is in space BUT ALSO passing it in a way that supports the whole team's offensive move in that moment. When your pass has 4D smarts you don't only make the recipient of the pass look good, you make the whole team more effective.

With both of these things you need to have the natural skill/brain to start with.
But then you can be coached.
I think coaching probably impacts the 4D chess part of elite kicking more than the raw skill.
At the moment our coaching seems to work very hard at setting up attacking moves but in so doing interrupts the attacking momentum itself.
I think our game plan (whatever flavour it is) is hampering the execution of elite kicking/passing.