Expansion A third team in Queensland? AFL acknowledges QLD3 as a 20th licence option

[Canberra Pear]

We had two expansion teams where attendance isn't big and the third with Tasmania. Time to take the easy option and let the cash cow of the AFL have another calf.

I assume the cash cow you're talking about is a team: in the city whose government will provide $3m a year; will have a low breakeven stadium; will get in-season stadium naming rights; and be based in a city with a 40% higher median income than Perth?

Right ?

 

[GC2015]

WA3 as the 20th team does grow the game, it gets an extra 30K home crowd every week and an extra televised game each weekend. Every new market already has 3-4 sporting teams taking a slice of the cake, a stand alone AFL team isn't going to start up in a location with nothing and just convert everyone to the sport. Take a look at GC or GWS, huge markets yet low crowds in comparison.

Let me reword. WA3 doesn't bring new fans to the game (for the most part) and I think that's one of the biggest factors going against them. Realistically, a second Brisbane team would have three legitimate competitors in their market being the Lions, Broncos and Dolphins. The Suns have had one legitimate competitor for their entire existence and that is the NRL's Titans. A Sunshine Coast team would have zero competitors.

If you don't cater for fans in WA, they still watch on TV but they spend a lot less. Half the revenue for the game is generated by attendance so you want to keep it ticking along. I'm sure there are heaps of WC fans fed up waiting (maybe if they didn't suck) but they would never in their right mind switch to Freo, drop another team and I recon they will.

We had two expansion teams where attendance isn't big and the third with Tasmania. Time to take the easy option and let the cash cow of the AFL have another calf.

Are you concerned that the AFL aren't making enough money and therefore need to start a WA3 team to address that? That's certainly not a concern of mine. I think the AFL makes plenty of money and are correctly prioritising growing the game in emerging markets, as opposed to selecting the option that's going to render the most return in the short-term. It's long-term strategic planning that will pay off later on. Bringing new people to the game, changing perceptions about our great game in markets that have historically pushed back on it. The Lions have done such a good job of that over the last 5-6 years and I hope my club is about to embark on the same thing over the next few years.

Would it be great to have another team that pulls 30k+ to home games every fortnight? Sure, but growing the game by converting new people from other sports to the point where it can stand on its own two feet with the rugby codes in the northern states is worth so much more to the AFL than anything a WA3 team can offer. The AFL may think the Suns and Lions are enough to achieve that goal on their own and if that's the case then WA3 have a great shot at the 20th licence, BUT if the AFL sees value in a third Queensland team entering the competition for the same reasons listed above, then I can see that line of thinking prevailing over a WA3 bid.

 

[Aura]

FNQ Cowgirls and Newcastle Dames should be 19 and 20 to combat NRL in rugby states. NT and Tassie can join whenever and people will support from the get go.

 

[LongSerong]

WA3 won't work. There isn't a sub-culture here that supports the WAFL enough where there's a zone of fans begging to have a team - you're either Freo or Eagles, no-one is jumping ship off these boats. Even a South-West team won't create enough crowds because the travel time for both fans and players will just be too tough.

 

[Coolangatta]

WA3 won't work. There isn't a sub-culture here that supports the WAFL enough where there's a zone of fans begging to have a team - you're either Freo or Eagles, no-one is jumping ship off these boats. Even a South-West team won't create enough crowds because the travel time for both fans and players will just be too tough.

Yeah that’s the thing, even though most of us WA people will say there’s too many teams in Victoria (there is, but that was a problem with how the comp was set up years ago), they think that means we need a 3rd team to close the gap.

But there just isn’t the demand here for a 3rd club like they think there is over east. Not from the WAFL, not from the WAFC, not from the members and not from the supporters.

 

[Purple Suit]

Let me reword. WA3 doesn't bring new fans to the game (for the most part) and I think that's one of the biggest factors going against them. Realistically, a second Brisbane team would have three legitimate competitors in their market being the Lions, Broncos and Dolphins. The Suns have had one legitimate competitor for their entire existence and that is the NRL's Titans. A Sunshine Coast team would have zero competitors.


Are you concerned that the AFL aren't making enough money and therefore need to start a WA3 team to address that? That's certainly not a concern of mine. I think the AFL makes plenty of money and are correctly prioritising growing the game in emerging markets, as opposed to selecting the option that's going to render the most return in the short-term. It's long-term strategic planning that will pay off later on. Bringing new people to the game, changing perceptions about our great game in markets that have historically pushed back on it. The Lions have done such a good job of that over the last 5-6 years and I hope my club is about to embark on the same thing over the next few years.

Would it be great to have another team that pulls 30k+ to home games every fortnight? Sure, but growing the game by converting new people from other sports to the point where it can stand on its own two feet with the rugby codes in the northern states is worth so much more to the AFL than anything a WA3 team can offer. The AFL may think the Suns and Lions are enough to achieve that goal on their own and if that's the case then WA3 have a great shot at the 20th licence, BUT if the AFL sees value in a third Queensland team entering the competition for the same reasons listed above, then I can see that line of thinking prevailing over a WA3 bid.

The AFL already run the competition to make more money. Look at the prime time slots they give to the big 4 just to drive their crowds up. The reason they are so big is they have a 100K stadium and play each other all the time. Eventually, you could have a big 4 in WA with a bigger stadium and 8 block busters a year with 80K attendance. That would fill the coffers & fund expansions while strengthening the game.

What is the point in have more teams 1 hour from Brisbane when they can just support the Lions? I recon that is GC's problem, half their potential support base probably never switched as they are too close anyway.

It is a furphy that you will convert fans in a big way. Maybe once GC & GWS can achieve this, then the AFL should look at a third team in QLD as they will know the timeframe required.

I assume the cash cow you're talking about is a team: in the city whose government will provide $3m a year; will have a low breakeven stadium; will get in-season stadium naming rights; and be based in a city with a 40% higher median income than Perth?

Right ?

3m a year is good but still shy of the 10m extra each of the GC & GWS get compared to small Melbourne teams or the 6m extra they get more than the 2nd bottom Tier. The AFL also lose out as GWS no longer get a Canberra kickback so they have to pay that cash too.

 

[LongSerong]

Yeah that’s the thing, even though most of us WA people will say there’s too many teams in Victoria (there is, but that was a problem with how the comp was set up years ago), they think that means we need a 3rd team to close the gap.

But there just isn’t the demand here for a 3rd club like they think there is over east. Not from the WAFL, not from the WAFC, not from the members and not from the supporters.

Just make the competition 18 teams and merge 2 Vic teams and it solves so many problems. The talent pool will be less diluted as a result and some low averaging attendance teams will actually fill stadiums. Tough decisions were made in the past, why not make them now

 

[Canberra Pear]

3m a year is good but still shy of the 10m extra each of the GC & GWS get compared to small Melbourne teams or the 6m extra they get more than the 2nd bottom Tier. The AFL also lose out as GWS no longer get a Canberra kickback so they have to pay that cash too.

$3m isn't the only factor. It's one of multiple factors I listed that make Canberra similarly financially viable (if not more) to WA3.

The Giants' dependence on Canberra's cash is also overstated. The Giants get $2.85m from the ACT Government. But without Canberra, the Giants would get back a $1m spot on the guernsey; no longer have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in wages to Canberra staff; and have flexibility to sell games (they have California ambitions).

WA3 isn't without its expenses. WA AFL teams have to pay an expensive royalty to the WAFC. Based on West Coast and Freo's, that'd be $1-1.5m a year. It's more expensive travel-wise, too. WA3 would cost about $300k more in flights a year than a Canberra team.

 

[rye]

terrible idea

 

[JimmyBC]

QLD3 would be a joke we are still waiting for GC to pack a stadium up there, in fact I wish Southport had entered instead of GC a club with soul and a point of difference would've been cool.

 

[GC2015]

The AFL already run the competition to make more money. Look at the prime time slots they give to the big 4 just to drive their crowds up. The reason they are so big is they have a 100K stadium and play each other all the time. Eventually, you could have a big 4 in WA with a bigger stadium and 8 block busters a year with 80K attendance. That would fill the coffers & fund expansions while strengthening the game.

4 teams in WA now? Gee whiz. You've got big plans for AFL footy in WA that I'm sure aren't going to happen in any of our life times. I can entertain the idea of 3 WA teams, but 4? Come on now. Getting very carried away there, mate.

What is the point in have more teams 1 hour from Brisbane when they can just support the Lions? I recon that is GC's problem, half their potential support base probably never switched as they are too close anyway.

It is a furphy that you will convert fans in a big way. Maybe once GC & GWS can achieve this, then the AFL should look at a third team in QLD as they will know the timeframe required.

What's the point of starting a team 40 minutes west of the SCG when they can just support the Swans? Surely it's not that hard to understand that the AFL wants to convert Australians from non-traditional markets to our game and are making moves accordingly.

The problem for the Suns is we have never consistently performed well on field to give the locals a reason to invest / engage / regularly attend games. That's the main factor that's been holding the Suns back. Assuming this current rise is legit, you'll see over the next few years that being located an hour away from Brisbane has no bearing on Gold Coast's popularity within the GC market. Keep winning and they will jump on board. I'm confident on that.

 

[Canberra Pear]

There are some compelling arguments here for a third SEQ down the track, but it won't be in time for the 20th team.

As I've said ad nauseum, you aren't going to introduce a team at the same time you increase the Lions' capacity by 70%.

You want a new club to start with an overflow of demand, and all that demand would be mopped by the extra 25k seats every fortnight.

Throw in those Gold Coast upgrades and that's 35k extra seats every fortnight in SEQ.

Starting selling both of those sradiums out, and then a third team becomes more realistic.

 

[Walshawk]

Yes, but the sell out crowds at the Gabba are the reason that the Lions will be moving to the bigger stadium. The Gabba is clearly too small for the demand we're seeing for Brisbane Lions games.

Here is a great example of what happens on the TV broadcast side during day games on the Gold Coast. People simply refuse to sit in that kind of direct sunlight for over two hours. However, you can see there's a good amount of people sitting towards the back of the second tier where there is shade and the same can be said about the back of the first tier where there is shade.

The Gold Coast Mayor has already said he'll fund the upgrade if the state government don't want to because they see it as a piece of infrastructure for many types of events, not just AFL. It can happen if they want it to and I suspect it will in the next 5 or so years as the crowds increase.

So, more shade first.

Then, better transport and car parking options.

Only then would you consider increasing the capacity.

 

[Purple Suit]

$3m isn't the only factor. It's one of multiple factors I listed that make Canberra similarly financially viable (if not more) to WA3.

The Giants' dependence on Canberra's cash is also overstated. The Giants get $2.85m from the ACT Government. But without Canberra, the Giants would get back a $1m spot on the guernsey; no longer have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in wages to Canberra staff; and have flexibility to sell games (they have California ambitions).

WA3 isn't without its expenses. WA AFL teams have to pay an expensive royalty to the WAFC. Based on West Coast and Freo's, that'd be $1-1.5m a year. It's more expensive travel-wise, too. WA3 would cost about $300k more in flights a year than a Canberra team.

The WA royalty pays for grass roots footy. We’re the only state who pays for it from profits, not the AFL. So actually, we are making more money for the AFL than other teams as it’s less money they have to find.

Travel is paid for by the club & the big supporter base, hence why Freo & WC get 15m less a year from the AFL than GC & GWS.

WA has fallen behind in junior development so another club feeding the WAFL it would be great.

 

[Interdimensional Bigfoot]

Can they be called the Hammerheads or Crocs?

 

[JimmyBC]

Can they be called the Hammerheads or Crocs?

The Moons

 

[Canberra Pear]

The WA royalty pays for grass roots footy. We’re the only state who pays for it from profits, not the AFL. So actually, we are making more money for the AFL than other teams as it’s less money they have to find.

It's still an expense that makes the club more expensive and therefore will increase your distro.

Travel is paid for by the club & the big supporter base, hence why Freo & WC get 15m less a year from the AFL than GC & GWS.

Doesn't matter who pays for it, still going to be an expense that makes WA3 more expensive.

Also bold of you to assume that WA3 will have a fanbase closer in size to West Coast than the Giants. It'll be somewhere in the middle, but wouldn't be surprised if it's closer to the Giants.

 

[AstonSouffle]

Lol as soon as the Perth Bears are a thing, watch the AFL magically start caring about WA and their attention will turn there.

 

[Coolangatta]

Lol as soon as the Perth Bears are a thing, watch the AFL magically start caring about WA and their attention will turn there.

You can write the script for it. Same old predictable code war reactionary tripe. They will needlessly try to kill the momentum of the NRL side. Needlessly because they won’t be big and won’t pose a threat to the AFL.

 

[JPetro83]

The AFL have gone too far as it is. unfortunatly there has to be a 20th side now they Devils are coming in.
Shame we cant just get two Vic clubs to merge so we stay at 18 when the Devils come in.

 

[JPetro83]

Lol as soon as the Perth Bears are a thing, watch the AFL magically start caring about WA and their attention will turn there.

Are the Perth Bears still a thing? is that 100% happening?
*sorry, just read the news

 

[JackFlash]

The AFL must turn its attention to WA before it's too late, as well as the "Gather Round" we need a "Go West" round to counter the NRL intrusion by that madman V'landys. Offer a special flight deal as incentive to go there. Definitely get a 3rd team in WA and a 3rd team in SA with one Victorian team getting the boot, that won't be popular, but if the AFL want 20 teams they must take care of it's strongholds in SA and WA! The AFL are resting on their laurels and must extract the digit!

 

[Canberra Pear]

Lol as soon as the Perth Bears are a thing, watch the AFL magically start caring about WA and their attention will turn there.

I get the neglect narrative, but the WA teams are literally getting an extra game each at home this year.

 

[Purple Suit]

I get the neglect narrative, but the WA teams are literally getting an extra game each at home this year.

After having an extra away game for two seasons. SA teams have been getting an extra home game too. Vic teams get six extra home games every year.

 

[Canberra Pear]

After having an extra away game for two seasons. SA teams have been getting an extra home game too. Vic teams get six extra home games every year.

Exactly. Things were a bit unfair. And this helps even things up. Glad we agree.