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Abortion

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Sterge said:
I have a question for those that are anti abortion, say a woman has an Ectopic pregnancy. This is still technically a pregnancy are people allowed to terminate in circumstances like this?
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Even Ireland in the past if the mother was in danger or the child couldn't be born they could terminate.
 
Gough said:
Similarly though, why should theists enforce their beliefs onto non believers?
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Most laws are theist in nature and historically, that why the west is the way it is and Islamic countries can have sharia law.
 
RU_ said:
Here’s one for you. A bloke I see through work occasionally has just had his partner tell him that she is pregnant, about 4-5 weeks into the pregnancy.

They have pre-agreed that if she fell pregnant they would have an abortion however she has completely changed her mind and is set on keeping it.

He wants nothing to do with the situation, isn’t ready for a child or to be a father due to financial reasons and general life reasons at this stage of his life. He told her during the start that she will be doing it on her own due to their prior agreement and if she wants to that’s fine, but he’s essentially going to sell up and go on the dole so that she can’t smash him for child support.

He’s come around from those initial thoughts now however and understands it’s a hard thing for her to go through and isn’t going to do any of the above, he’s scared to all shit about the situation though, but doesn’t think it’s fair on the child to grow up without him over the situation, however he also doesn’t feel like he’s ready to be a dad. He ultimately said last Friday that it’s her decision now and he’s going to try his best to deal with whatever she comes up with and play his part, but he’s not real happy considering they had a prior agreement.

Thoughts on that situation?
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Why do people have sex if they're not potentially ready to be a parent? Everyone knows pregnancy is a possibility. People shit me.
 
Perth gal said:
Why do people have sex if they're not potentially ready to be a parent? Everyone knows pregnancy is a possibility. People shit me.
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.. does that go for one night stands as well though? It’s human nature, really.
 

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Perth gal said:
Why do people have sex if they're not potentially ready to be a parent? Everyone knows pregnancy is a possibility. People shit me.
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Because it's fun and feels good.
 
Gough said:
You could get a dose of something nasty too and modern science has found a solution to that.
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Guess I don't think much of guys who have sex then don't want to deal with the consequences. Like the father of my child. It just annoys me.
 
Perth gal said:
Guess I don't think much of guys who have sex then don't want to deal with the consequences. Like the father of my child. It just annoys me.
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Deadbeat dads shit me too but banning abortion would only exacerbate that problem I would have thought.
 
RU_ said:
Here’s one for you. A bloke I see through work occasionally has just had his partner tell him that she is pregnant, about 4-5 weeks into the pregnancy.

They have pre-agreed that if she fell pregnant they would have an abortion however she has completely changed her mind and is set on keeping it.

He wants nothing to do with the situation, isn’t ready for a child or to be a father due to financial reasons and general life reasons at this stage of his life. He told her during the start that she will be doing it on her own due to their prior agreement and if she wants to that’s fine, but he’s essentially going to sell up and go on the dole so that she can’t smash him for child support.

He’s come around from those initial thoughts now however and understands it’s a hard thing for her to go through and isn’t going to do any of the above, he’s scared to all shit about the situation though, but doesn’t think it’s fair on the child to grow up without him over the situation, however he also doesn’t feel like he’s ready to be a dad. He ultimately said last Friday that it’s her decision now and he’s going to try his best to deal with whatever she comes up with and play his part, but he’s not real happy considering they had a prior agreement.

Thoughts on that situation?
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Clearly that's a shit situation.

But what I think people forget in situations like this, is that stuff has been happening to people that they didn't plan for or agree to for a long, long, long time, and humans being what they are, have just learned to cope.

I was a raging alcoholic, smoking, gambling loser who simply refused to grow up at the time I found out I was going to be a dad. I would miss rent payments repeatedly because I'd blown my money on piss and smokes, I couldn't put fuel in my car, meanwhile all my mates had completed uni, half of them working for Fairfax or Fox Sports etc - I'd been kicked out of my course. There was no way I could do it. But in the knowledge that the girl - now my wife even though we were not even together when this happened - would be burdened with having to do this all on her own (with 10 and 8 year old girls from a previous relationship), I just sucked it up and took responsibility. I told her I'd do whatever it took to support her, that I wouldn't just start being her partner as it would be for the wrong reasons, but I would see a financial counsellor and straighten myself out, and be there every step of the way for my son or daughter.

Any chance I had of moving away to Sydney (a lifelong goal to that point), travelling overseas like my mates had done, going back to try and finish uni - that was all gone in one phone call.

But the idea that this little person would have a shot at life - and to me no matter how f***ed life can be sometimes, it's the f***ing greatest - and that I could be a part of it, was the overriding thought driving me.

We lost that child unfortunately but by that stage I'd spent enough time with the mum that I'd started a relationship with her. 10 years later we have two sons, we both have steady jobs - she has 3 uni degrees and I finally went and got mine - we've been overseas 5 times including a month long trip around Europe, we own a house, and I have two grown daughters that I consider my own.

That's long winded and melodramatic I know. But it reinforces that there is no situation that a human being can't handle if they're willing to look at something as an opportunity rather than a ball and chain.

If I was talking to your mate, I would simply tell him that right now, his situation isn't going to help his lot in life. But in 10 years his life might be better than he'd ever envisaged because of it.
 
PhatBoy said:
Clearly that's a shit situation.

But what I think people forget in situations like this, is that stuff has been happening to people that they didn't plan for or agree to for a long, long, long time, and humans being what they are, have just learned to cope.

I was a raging alcoholic, smoking, gambling loser who simply refused to grow up at the time I found out I was going to be a dad. I would miss rent payments repeatedly because I'd blown my money on piss and smokes, I couldn't put fuel in my car, meanwhile all my mates had completed uni, half of them working for Fairfax or Fox Sports etc - I'd been kicked out of my course. There was no way I could do it. But in the knowledge that the girl - now my wife even though we were not even together when this happened - would be burdened with having to do this all on her own (with 10 and 8 year old girls from a previous relationship), I just sucked it up and took responsibility. I told her I'd do whatever it took to support her, that I wouldn't just start being her partner as it would be for the wrong reasons, but I would see a financial counsellor and straighten myself out, and be there every step of the way for my son or daughter.

Any chance I had of moving away to Sydney (a lifelong goal to that point), travelling overseas like my mates had done, going back to try and finish uni - that was all gone in one phone call.

But the idea that this little person would have a shot at life - and to me no matter how f***ed life can be sometimes, it's the f***ing greatest - and that I could be a part of it, was the overriding thought driving me.

We lost that child unfortunately but by that stage I'd spent enough time with the mum that I'd started a relationship with her. 10 years later we have two sons, we both have steady jobs - she has 3 uni degrees and I finally went and got mine - we've been overseas 5 times including a month long trip around Europe, we own a house, and I have two grown daughters that I consider my own.

That's long winded and melodramatic I know. But it reinforces that there is no situation that a human being can't handle if they're willing to look at something as an opportunity rather than a ball and chain.

If I was talking to your mate, I would simply tell him that right now, his situation isn't going to help his lot in life. But in 10 years his life might be better than he'd ever envisaged because of it.
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Thanks for your story mate. I wish more men could be like you.
 

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Perth gal said:
Thanks for your story mate. I wish more men could be like you.
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Lol, thanks - I should have clarified, that post probably just reads like me trying to sound like I'm something special. I'm not, I've made so many colossal mistakes as an adult, a husband and a dad that it's just ridiculous.

But I just cant fathom how any grown human can see someone in that situation and not want to be a part of it, even if it's out of duty as much as anything. When you reach adulthood, you take responsibility for so many things. You go from having everything done for you and given to you, to having to work, pay bills, find housing, budget, time manage etc. It boggles my mind that men - and women for that matter who on occasion walk out on their families - can't put parenthood into that group of responsibilities as well when it might come around.
 
Sainteric said:
Even Ireland in the past if the mother was in danger or the child couldn't be born they could terminate.
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No, even babies in mortal danger had to be carried to term in Ireland.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/an...lity-pregnancy-birth-ireland-1420739-Apr2014/

(from 2014)

‘...Have you ever heard of anencephaly?’ (the doctor) asked. ‘I believe your baby has a condition called anencephaly it’s a neural tube defect that affects the top of the skull’. He explained that the baby’s skull hadn’t formed above his eyebrows and that the condition was fatal – no cure, no chance of living, incompatible with life.

My baby was going to die and there was nothing I could do to stop it

Finding this out nearly halfway through my pregnancy was a surprise. As far as I was concerned, once you reached 12 weeks with no problems it was happy sailing. My first thought was ‘I can’t do this, I want to end the pregnancy, get it out off me’. I went into a panic. My baby was going to die and there was nothing I could do to stop it. It felt so unfair. He went on to explain that one in every 100,00 babies born have this condition, that the cause of the condition was unknown, but that low levels of folic acid can be a contributing factor.

We asked what our options were and were told in Ireland we didn’t have any, and that under current Irish law the pregnancy had to go to term but suggested going to England if we wanted a different outcome.
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and

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mendment-travel-liverpool-video-a8360226.html

(pre-referendum 2018)

...When Caroline and Michael McCarthy were told at their 20-week pregnancy scan that their third child wouldn’t survive outside the womb, they were devastated.

They learnt that their baby’s kidneys hadn’t developed in the first weeks of pregnancy, a condition called bilateral renal agenesis. As a result, there was no amniotic fluid and the baby had no chance of survival after birth.

The couple had to make a choice: carry the baby to term, or seek a termination.

Under Ireland’s strict laws, abortion is illegal in almost every instance, including when a foetus has received a fatal diagnosis. They knew that if they decided to end the pregnancy, they would have to travel to England – a journey thousands of Irish women make every year.

“It was a real kind of limbo,” Caroline told The Independent. “You’re grieving for this baby, but not only is the baby still alive, the baby is actually growing and you look pregnant...”
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Perth gal said:
Why do people have sex if they're not potentially ready to be a parent? Everyone knows pregnancy is a possibility. People shit me.
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It's a genuine risk of sex but it's one that you can wriggle out of your adult responsibility over for the cheap cost of someone else's life.
 
nobody is ever really ready to be a par
MEB_ said:
Nah, she'd be on one or the other. You can't use two different kinds of hormonal contraception.
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Maybe that was the problem :)

More likely its just guys not understanding how it works though

Perth gal said:
It may be but it's a reality. You have sex , you may be a parent.
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Depends how you're doing it, also who is doing it
 

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MEB_ said:
ahh, the old
'up the butt, no babies'
kinda contraception
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100% effective as far as my understanding of biology goes though
 
The Speaker said:
The youngest known premature baby to survive was born at 21 weeks.
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Did that baby need specialist care and equipment to survive outside the womb? Not saying for a moment that it should have been killed, but 'viable' I take to mean 'breathing unassisted'.

Technically I don't think even adults in ICUs are 'viable' if they can't breathe unassisted. You switch that machine off and they'll die. Again, not saying that the comatose should all be killed.

But a conversation on 'viability' would be a good one to have within the context of this whole debate.
 

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