Analysis Accountability, excuses/reasons thread

[dazbroncos]

Seems there has been a break down somewhere.

If the players expected the coach to be there and he wasn't especially

Hmmm...

My gut reaction to the HC not being involved in exit interviews of with players seems odd - meaning IMO he should be involved.

The flip side is that if Lloyd was tasked, as part of his gig, to take over that role and engage the players as the club's representative... then I could see that working too.

GO Catters

 

[Pollywaffle]

One thing that has struck me about all these discussions about accountability/ excuses, both here, and in the infamous Chris Scott's coaching thread is the similarity between a lot of the rhetoric involved and the arguments around the power failures in SA recently. People came on to blame the regulator, the wild weather, renewable energy mix, privatisation, poor maintenance, politics, government inaction, price manipulation. Each of these probably have a part to play . What really counts is the final result which most people agree, is less than optimal. The sad fact is that in modern juggernaut AFL clubs there are also too many variables to just think that sacking a coach or moving a few players on will fix a problem. We don't even know for sure that there is a problem, other than the fact that we didn't win a premiership and bowed out of the race in an embarrassing fashion.
I do get the feeling that this year will be a watershed year for the current coaching/ admin staff, the club's playing philosophy, and some of the players who's reputations are yet to solidify.

 

[dazbroncos]

One thing that has struck me about all these discussions about accountability/ excuses, both here, and in the infamous Chris Scott's coaching thread is the similarity between a lot of the rhetoric involved and the arguments around the power failures in SA recently. People came on to blame the regulator, the wild weather, renewable energy mix, privatisation, poor maintenance, politics, government inaction, price manipulation. Each of these probably have a part to play . What really counts is the final result which most people agree, is less than optimal. The sad fact is that in modern juggernaut AFL clubs there are also too many variables to just think that sacking a coach or moving a few players on will fix a problem. We don't even know for sure that there is a problem, other than the fact that we didn't win a premiership and bowed out of the race in an embarrassing fashion.
I do get the feeling that this year will be a watershed year for the current coaching/ admin staff, the club's playing philosophy, and some of the players who's reputations are yet to solidify.

So in short... shit's gonna get REAL!

Go Catters

 

[BlightysCats]

Keeping the GFC in the Top 4 on the field all the while doing it with 1/2 of the recruiting staff of other clubs. Surely that means the fat cats at the other clubs are just wasting their time and money. How inefficient! And you think they are doing a better job? Where are the results?
Surely they should be higher on the ladder and more successful with these bigger and more developed recruiting departments yes?

Pies, WC, and Hawks all finished above us last year as a direct result of Cook's incompetency right! We are clearly SO far behind other clubs....yet we finished above them, have our own redeveloped stadium, paid more than any other club to build it, and will have the best facilities and resources to expand into going forward. But no, you'd rather spend money on short term, short sighted micro visioned temporary things. Way to go there.

There you go just putting words in to my mouth - never said we shouldn't have redeveloped our stadium and no doubt that is one of the great achievements of Cook like saving our club in general all those years ago. This however doesn't mean he doesn't have weaknesses or areas where he and the club need to improve, our recruiting from the draft has been inferior to other clubs in the last few years Cook himself admitted most clubs have 6 recruiting staff we've only had 3, as for what I said about the women's team I'll repeat it again I have it from someone very close to the club that it was completely a little PR exercise applying for the women's team and nothing more, we put in a dismal bid and there was no way the AFL could've picked ours over another teams even if they'd wanted to. This along with disbanding the only functioning women's group attached to the club has to raise questions about how seriously the GFC values women.

I know you only want to hear and believe all things good from the GFC but the facts don't discern good or bad they just are.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I know you only want to hear and believe all things good from the GFC but the facts don't discern good or bad they just are.

Now who's putting words into someone's mouth

 

[Cattery]

Ive kinda derailed another thread with all this stuff so thought I'd start one.
I don't want it to be like that other thread, it's not about coaching ability but if we are learning from mistakes, passing the buck, making excuses holding everyone accountable etc.
Also personally I have no inside information on the club at all.
My opinions can only come from what I can see, hear from the outside.

Too late for that already I'd say.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Too late for that already I'd say.

I've got no problem with what Blighty said.
Thought the reactions to it were far worse.
It is true we didn't put as much effort into a women's team, or attract sponsors for it as much as some other clubs. It's just a fact.
As for the recruiting staff I know Lloyd was very taken back when he got to the club and found we only had 3 recruiters.
I can't see why anyone got so upset about it.

 

[Partridge]

I've got no problem with what Blighty said.
Thought the reactions to it were far worse.
It is true we didn't put as much effort into a women's team, or attract sponsors for it as much as some other clubs. It's just a fact.
As for the recruiting staff I know Lloyd was very taken back when he got to the club and found we only had 3 recruiters.
I can't see why anyone got so upset about it.

Because it was BC that said it.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Because it was BC that said it.

Exactly.

 

[Lager]

You picked all this up in the Harvard Masters of Management Course that Cookie completed or you just got this from sitting on the couch and whipped it up and posted it?

Im pretty sure the AFL decided who got AFLW team licenses and that GFC submitted an application. Be very happy to agree with you once I see said application and its "half hearted" nature.

OMG - The shame. Only 3 FT recruiters. Facepalm. What a disgrace. So incompetent. The horror. Didn't we have more and have them poached by Carlton and Richmond and we just didnt refill the position in the short term?

Perhaps it as related to logistics and funding. Sure the club could hire more recruiters, rent portable facilities with which to house them, create temporary infrastructure and have to figure out how to integrate them to the current group. So lets take $$ out of the budget of the redevelopment of the stadium to pay for short term things we clearly dont need right now that will make us less competitive down the track. To gain what exactly in the short term? Its been announced that the new Football Department facilities will have more space, infrastructure and ability to expand with the new stadium completion. Classic bending over to pick up dollar coins while the 100.00 notes fall out of your back pocket. But the dramatic adjectives of your argument sound ssooooo convincing....not

Perhaps having to deposit 350k into an equalisation fund that was 40% or so of our profits as opposed to 15% like some of the other clubs slugged with equalisation contributions negated the expansion you so desperately crave. What great financial management!!

All the while adding 15 million to stadium redevelopment. To ensure the longevity of the club. What a brilliant management decision and structure.

Keeping the GFC in the Top 4 on the field all the while doing it with 1/2 of the recruiting staff of other clubs. Surely that means the fat cats at the other clubs are just wasting their time and money. How inefficient! And you think they are doing a better job? Where are the results?
Surely they should be higher on the ladder and more successful with these bigger and more developed recruiting departments yes?

Pies, WC, and Hawks all finished above us last year as a direct result of Cook's incompetency right! We are clearly SO far behind other clubs....yet we finished above them, have our own redeveloped stadium, paid more than any other club to build it, and will have the best facilities and resources to expand into going forward. But no, you'd rather spend money on short term, short sighted micro visioned temporary things. Way to go there.

Seems the incompetent egg might have landed on the wrong face there.

Cook's an autocrat....
Champagne sketch comedy BC...

Go Catters

Brutal! Nice post

 

[BlightysCats]

Great post Daz. You've highlighted BC's super negative neatly. Can you just imagine what he must be like when he goes to a restaurant; complaining about the food, complaining about the table service, complaining about the music, complaining about the decor, complaining about the prices, complaining about the drinks menu yet all the while telling everyone within ear shot that this is his favourite place to eat.

Bad analogy bud, if you look at what I complain about it's worth complaining about, getting smashed in a prelim for example, half heartedly applying for a women's team, not recruiting through the draft adequately or building a team the way we did to get success under Bomber, winning 2 finals of 8 since 2011...and so on and so forth.

You see a better analogy would've been us all going to a pricey restaurant let's call it 'The GFC past 5 seasons ristorante,' getting a good entree but a shitty main and desert; I complain about how shitty the main and desert was while you and the rest of the unofficial GFC cheer-squad refuse to even admit a shitty main and desert was even served.

There you go, fixed the analogy for you!

 

[BlightysCats]

You picked all this up in the Harvard Masters of Management Course that Cookie completed or you just got this from sitting on the couch and whipped it up and posted it?

Doesn't mean shit!! Look up Jeffrey Skilling he went to Harvard Business School and got a Masters too, then he became CEO of a little company called ENRON, do you think that was run well? Somebody's performance shouldn't be judged on what qualifications they accrued in the past but rather the job they are doing in the present. Cook is doing a good job in many respects down at Geelong but he is also struggling in other areas and needs to be helped/held to account more for those areas of weakness as the club does as a whole. The GFC isn't some perfectly run utopian organisation like you think it is, it has clear flaws that need fixing.

 

[Sticksman]

Bad analogy bud, if you look at what I complain about it's worth complaining about, getting smashed in a prelim for example, half heartedly applying for a women's team, not recruiting through the draft adequately or building a team the way we did to get success under Bomber, winning 2 finals of 8 since 2011...and so on and so forth.

You see a better analogy would've been us all going to a pricey restaurant let's call it 'The GFC past 5 seasons ristorante,' getting a good entre but a shitty main and desert; I complain about how shitty the main and desert was while you and the rest of the unofficial GFC cheer-squad refuse to even admit a shitty main and desert was even served.

There you go, fixed the analogy for you!

Poor effort there pal. You can rant as much as you like but you've shown yourself to be a waste of space. Negativity personified.

I simply request that you don't (continue) to poison this thread as you do in most threads where you post.

 

[dazbroncos]

Doesn't mean shit!! Look up Jeffrey Skilling he went to Harvard Business School and got a Masters too, then he became CEO of a little company called ENRON, do you think that was run well? Somebody's performance shouldn't be judged on what qualifications they accrued in the past but rather the job they are doing in the present. Cook is doing a good job in many respects down at Geelong but he is also struggling in other areas and needs to be helped/held to account more for those areas of weakness as the club does as a whole. The GFC isn't some perfectly run utopian organisation like you think it is, it has clear flaws that need fixing.

Never said it was.

Go Catters

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I've got no problem with what Blighty said.
Thought the reactions to it were far worse.
It is true we didn't put as much effort into a women's team, or attract sponsors for it as much as some other clubs. It's just a fact.
As for the recruiting staff I know Lloyd was very taken back when he got to the club and found we only had 3 recruiters.
I can't see why anyone got so upset about it.

Or, as is the norm, he ruins the potential for good points by over doing it and posting drivel.

Like, we need to change the structure. Cool.... then suggests drop Hawkins. Drivel.

Has a problem with Scott as coach... then suggests Cook would have to go as he's hitched his wagon to Scott (later expended to include Hocking as well). Drivel.

Of course we didn't go all out for a women's side. They were only allowing 4 of them in Vic. Mike as Chairman made Carlton highly likely, Collingwood had appointed staff before winning a license. Not suss at all and the Dees/Dogs were always going to get a team given the effort they put in for 3-4 seasons prior to that. So from the get go we weren't likely to beat AFL house and their agendas. The process highlighted also that the AFL had concerns over the quantity and quality of girls playing in this region so we were over looked.

Recruiters... well they've promoted Selwood and look to be further boosting it. No need for alarm as the problem is being addressed.

Cook not being held accountable.... erm... that's what a board does, monitors the the clubs progresses and evaluates the core personnel charged with that duty, starting with the CEO. If they don't do that job then fans will oust the board. So again more drivel.

 

[BlightysCats]

Poor effort there pal. You can rant as much as you like but you've shown yourself to be a waste of space. Negativity personified.

I simply request that you don't (continue) to poison this thread as you do in most threads where you post.

Ask the guy who started the thread if he thinks I'm poisoning it with negativity? Then when you get your response jump down off your high horse and land face first in to the horse sh*t filled hole you've dug for yourself with your above statement.

 

[BlightysCats]

Never said it was.

Go Catters

No, you just completely deny the existence of, or irrationally attack anyone who points out, any weakness the club or it's CEO has.

 

[DanA]

The problem with Blighty cats is that everything according to you is bad....with the exception of Lloyd. Doesn't matter if it's the coaching, the recruitment in FA, the drafting or the administration. You shoot from the hip, and half the hit a bloke with his head down doing a good job.

Don't get me wrong I think the match committee ****ed up royally with team selection against Sydney. Not covering up for that but we got to a Prelim Final and IMO had the cattle to potentially get further. It's not that bad a situation, only one team each year gets to win. I'll settle for questions being asked and fixes being implemented rather than head rolling. I think the club is moving in the right direction, and generally I thought the game plan was good last season with the team selection in that Prelim deplorable.

I don't get why we're bagging recruitment, the drafting or the administration. I don't even think we need a coaching change, we just need to recognise what we did wrong and make changes. Use a scalpel rather than Blighty's axe.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Here you go, see what you make of it, the Hocking interview starts at the nine minute mark ................

https://audioboom.com/posts/3548773-saturday-agenda-september-5

Thanks mate. You're right he said no such thing.
To me it was they wanted to make it Selwoods, Taylor's and Hawkins team.
Stevie J was just too much of a dominant personality for them to deal with, hence why they decided to keep Bartel and dump Johnson despite Johnson being the far better player that year.
From the outside it doesn't seem like a great decision.
Johnson was happy to play VFL, take the pay of a second year player just to stay at the club.
2016 Johnson played far better than Bartel again , and we relied on 2 leaders constantly to get us through.
McCarthy and Menzel have reoccurring injuries so it's not like he would of been taking too many games away from other players.
No matter which way I look at it now seems a poor decision from the outside.

 

[Sticksman]

Ask the guy who started the thread if he thinks I'm poisoning it with negativity?

There are several posters here who would agree that you are over the top negative about the coach and the CEO. The starter of this thread is just one other poster who may or may not be happy to see you try and derail another thread with your extreme pessimism and negativity.

 

[BlightysCats]

The problem with Blighty cats is that everything according to you is bad....with the exception of Lloyd. Doesn't matter if it's the coaching, the recruitment in FA, the drafting or the administration. You shoot from the hip, and half the hit a bloke with his head down doing a good job.

Don't get me wrong I think the match committee ****** up royally with team selection against Sydney. Not covering up for that but we got to a Prelim Final and IMO had the cattle to potentially get further. It's not that bad a situation, only one team each year gets to win. I'll settle for questions being asked and fixes being implemented rather than head rolling. I think the club is moving in the right direction, and generally I thought the game plan was good last season with the team selection in that Prelim deplorable.

I don't get why we're bagging recruitment, the drafting or the administration. I don't even think we need a coaching change, we just need to recognise what we did wrong and make changes. Use a scalpel rather than Blighty's axe.

Go take a look at the Chris Scott thread (if you're game) I just made a list of all things good I feel the GFC has done in recent years - even in this thread I've twice stated good things Cook has done/is doing then pointed out the areas where he has to improve, some of those being areas he himself said the club needs to improve.

Despite the perception of my view of the club on here I'll say and have said there are quite obviously many things the club does well, it's more the fact that on here there are just a core group of posters that refuse to acknowledge obvious areas where the club hasn't done well and either needs drastic change or improvement, and sometimes the club itself doesn't acknowledge those areas.

 

[BlightysCats]

There are several posters here who would agree that you are over the top negative about the coach and the CEO. The starter of this thread is just one other poster who may or may not be happy to see you try and derail another thread with your extreme pessimism and negativity.

Guess what?...There are also several posters who think I raise valid points! Amazingly on this forum when people have strong opinions there tends to be a group of posters who agree with them, and then a group of posters who don't, and then there's even a group who really couldn't give a toss and are floating around in between somewhere.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Or, as is the norm, he ruins the potential for good points by over doing it and posting drivel.

Like, we need to change the structure. Cool.... then suggests drop Hawkins. Drivel.

Has a problem with Scott as coach... then suggests Cook would have to go as he's hitched his wagon to Scott (later expended to include Hocking as well). Drivel.

Of course we didn't go all out for a women's side. They were only allowing 4 of them in Vic. Mike as Chairman made Carlton highly likely, Collingwood had appointed staff before winning a license. Not suss at all and the Dees/Dogs were always going to get a team given the effort they put in for 3-4 seasons prior to that. So from the get go we weren't likely to beat AFL house and their agendas. The process highlighted also that the AFL had concerns over the quantity and quality of girls playing in this region so we were over looked.

Recruiters... well they've promoted Selwood and look to be further boosting it. No need for alarm as the problem is being addressed.

Cook not being held accountable.... erm... that's what a board does, monitors the the clubs progresses and evaluates the core personnel charged with that duty, starting with the CEO. If they don't do that job then fans will oust the board. So again more drivel.

Agree with you mostly. Even if we did put a lot effort into a woman's side fair chance we wouldn't of got one anyway. But it's still a fact we didn't. I'm not upset about it but I wouldn't ridicule someone just for stating a fact.
Same with the recruiting thing. I don't think it's great but I can see why it is what it is but it's still a fact.
I wouldn't just because, but I can understand a view of dropping Hawkins. We played very well without him last year.
Not something I would personally want but I still see the value in the view.
I love Cook but I don't mind anyone questioning him. It's just an opinion.its not like he'll leave because someone on here doesn't like him.
Dunno, I skip most of the Scott thread posts but it just seems like people just got sucked in a bit and started playing the man, so he started doing it back.
Now it's a shit fight. I don't use it but there is an ignore option.

 

[Spazz Cat]

There are several posters here who would agree that you are over the top negative about the coach and the CEO. The starter of this thread is just one other poster who may or may not be happy to see you try and derail another thread with your extreme pessimism and negativity.

Maybe if you also stopped getting sucked in and playing the man it wouldn't be a fight.
Both of you are doing it.
I don't give a shit about arguing over opinions but it gets personal really quickly.

 

[BlightysCats]

It's just an opinion.its not like he'll leave because someone on here doesn't like him.

I do like him, just has areas to fix that's all.