List Mgmt. Adelaide Crows 2021 List Management thread

[Sanders]

At the risk of engaging with you, that was my point. I know Watson debuted young. He wasn't a random player I picked from a hat to use as an example.

lol. No risk of that

 

[Sanders]

Evidently not considering the position you've taken.

the ignorance is at parody level

 

[Sanders]

Sorry, I prefer fact based debates.

There's no doubt the pathway needs work. That was actually part of my original post. It's only the select few hand wringers focussing on one aspect of it.

shouldn’t you acquire some facts first?

go on, ask someone from the AFLPA on to help your fact finding mission.

I might even listen

 

[feenix67]

oh you’re one of those. “Phil from the pub LLP”

It's not a complicated issue mate.

shouldn’t you acquire some facts first?

go on, ask someone from the AFLPA on to help your fact finding mission.

I might even listen

Im the only one in this debate who has actually provided any facts

 

[Sanders]

It's not a complicated issue mate.

Im the only one in this debate who has actually provided any facts

Sorry Phil, silly me for expecting too much

go on speak to the AFLPA and learn something. What have you got to lose? Think you’ll be surprised at what a hot topic this is for them and most of the major North American players unions

you’ve got nothing to lose.

 

[feenix67]

Sorry Phil, silly me for expecting too much

go on speak to the AFLPA and learn something. What have you got to lose? Think you’ll be surprised at what a hot topic this is for them and most of the major North American players unions

you’ve got nothing to lose.

One of many comments from people in the system in support of increasing the draft age:

Former Sydney and Melbourne coach Paul Roos and retired Fremantle champion Matthew Pavlich are both in the “yes” camp.

Pavlich, the AFL Players’ Association president, said earlier this year drafting 18-year-olds introduced a risk of “robbing young men of at least one or two important years of their life’s development”.

“I believe 19 or event 20 is the right age to be drafted,” he said.

Roos told News Corp this year “only one coach was strong on the draft age staying”.

“If it was up to senior coaches the draft age would be older ... it’s just ridiculous we’re asking kids to play school football, under-18 national championships TAC Cup and do Year 12 (in one year).”

But you do you Sanders

 

[Mutineer]

One of many comments from people in the system in support of increasing the draft age:

Former Sydney and Melbourne coach Paul Roos and retired Fremantle champion Matthew Pavlich are both in the “yes” camp.

Pavlich, the AFL Players’ Association president, said earlier this year drafting 18-year-olds introduced a risk of “robbing young men of at least one or two important years of their life’s development”.

“I believe 19 or event 20 is the right age to be drafted,” he said.

Roos told News Corp this year “only one coach was strong on the draft age staying”.

“If it was up to senior coaches the draft age would be older ... it’s just ridiculous we’re asking kids to play school football, under-18 national championships TAC Cup and do Year 12 (in one year).”

But you do you Sanders

To give some context to your Roos and Pavlich quotes, what year were these comments made in?

Surely Roos comments specifically were made before the U18's eligibility was lifted to U19s?

Horne-Francis has been working in the labour force this season not schooling and there have been others i.e Jack Higgins etc.

 

[feenix67]

To give some context to your Roos and Pavlich quotes, what year were these comments made in?

Surely Roos comments specifically were made before the U18's eligibility was lifted to U19s?

Horne-Francis has been working in the labour force this season not schooling and there have been others i.e Jack Higgins etc.

Clutching at straws there Bicks, the draft age hasn't changed.

 

[Mutineer]

Clutching at straws there Bicks, the draft age hasn't changed.

So you're not going to answer the question I put...fine that tells me all I need to know.

 

[feenix67]

So you're not going to answer the question I put...fine that tells me all I need to know.

When was Pav AFLPA president?

It was Nov 2017. The draft age hasn't moved between then and now.

 

[Sanders]

One of many comments from people in the system in support of increasing the draft age:

Former Sydney and Melbourne coach Paul Roos and retired Fremantle champion Matthew Pavlich are both in the “yes” camp.

Pavlich, the AFL Players’ Association president, said earlier this year drafting 18-year-olds introduced a risk of “robbing young men of at least one or two important years of their life’s development”.

“I believe 19 or event 20 is the right age to be drafted,” he said.

Roos told News Corp this year “only one coach was strong on the draft age staying”.

“If it was up to senior coaches the draft age would be older ... it’s just ridiculous we’re asking kids to play school football, under-18 national championships TAC Cup and do Year 12 (in one year).”

But you do you Sanders

FFS Phil. That’s embarrassing

this is a technical issue, and you’ve decided to go to the pub for “people’s opinions”

and if you think these matters aren’t going to be collectively bargained you’re nuts.

I’ll tell you one thing for free, the question of how much players unions should be involved in matters relating to players not yet involved in their playing industries is one of the MOST contentious issues in labor relations here and in at North America.

because of the restraint of trade issues it raises, and what giving ground means for other labor relations issues.

it is a MASSIVE issue. everything is about the overall ecological balance of collectively bargained labor peaces; and who benefits / loses from each bit.

but if you don’t think so, that’s fine. I’ve done my bit.

I will say this though, you’ll grow a second wang before the draft age is raised to 21

 

[Mego Red]

Your last point is quite right, which is another very good reason they should up the draft age. Let people enjoy their lives before the ridiculous bubble they live in will consume them.

Your argument is ridiculous, but that's nothing unusual

What are you talking about?

There is no serious reason to move the draft age to 21. Anyone suggesting it just isn't being sensible.

"Let people enjoy their lives" is just code for "let's keep these young athletes even further from their dreams, and force them to remain stuck in amateur environments, if they stay in the sport at all".

There is no sensible reason to move the draft age to 21. None.

 

[Mego Red]

So a 17 yo who gets drafted in the current system, turning 18 on 31 Dec 2021 is totally reasonable, but a kid who turns 18 on 1 January 2022, 17 as well at the time of the draft, and 18 before the season starts and ineligible, is totally not restraint of trade under your made-up legal system?

What the ****?

That's your argument?

People are arguing TWENTY ONE. Which is ridiculous.

No one has suggested 18 and a day.

There has to be a line SOMEWHERE. Saying they need to be an adult is reasonable. Saying they have to spend three or four extra years waiting is not.

 

[Sanders]

What are you talking about?

There is no serious reason to move the draft age to 21. Anyone suggesting it just isn't being sensible.

"Let people enjoy their lives" is just code for "let's keep these young athletes even further from their dreams, and force them to remain stuck in amateur environments, if they stay in the sport at all".

There is no sensible reason to move the draft age to 21. None.

there is. In theory it will improve scouting and drafting

there are a couple of problems with that reasoning:

1. It ignores all the prospects who aren’t even available in the pool anymore. The reason Sydney’s academy was targeting them so early was to get to an Isaac Heeney before RL could. This fruit loop idea would actually run off talent into somewhere else

2. improving drafting is pretty thin and idiotic reason to do anything compared with the massive development, social, commercial drawbacks it would create for the game

it’s why no serious person would suggest it. It’s why no serious person has

 

[Scorpus]

I reckon you're better off having an 18 year old develop in a highly funded, elite sporting environment for three years than have them develop in a semi-pro or amateur league where development often isn't the focus.

We don't have a college football system here like they do in the USA which is what makes the NFL's higher draft age work

 

[hey shorty]

I reckon you're better off having an 18 year old develop in a highly funded, elite sporting environment for three years than have them develop in a semi-pro or amateur league where development often isn't the focus.

We don't have a college football system here like they do in the USA which is what makes the NFL's higher draft age work

Thats fair

 

[1970crow]

I reckon you're better off having an 18 year old develop in a highly funded, elite sporting environment for three years than have them develop in a semi-pro or amateur league where development often isn't the focus.

We don't have a college football system here like they do in the USA which is what makes the NFL's higher draft age work

And the only equivalent would be a college style league but to not suffer talent leakage there'd need to be reasonable reward. And that would logically need to apply across the entire draft class which would mean spending on the majority that don't even get drafted. Sounds like a mega $ prospect for not much benefit.

 

[Mutineer]

Really not much different for a young footballer stepping into the AFL to learn on the job than an apprentice tradie, electrician, fitter and turner, jockey, carpenter, chef etc who all learn on the job. Sanders would know do apprentices still get apprentice wages until fully qualified, I know AFL footballers come in on a "rookies" wage?

 

[1970crow]

Really not much different for a young footballer stepping into the AFL to learn on the job than an apprentice tradie, electrician, fitter and turner, jockey, carpenter, chef etc who all learn on the job. Sanders would know do apprentices still get apprentice wages until fully qualified, I know AFL footballers come in on a "rookies" wage?

Most awards have scales for apprentices and sub 21 year olds.

 

[Dangarman]

Tim Watson debuted at 15

the AFLPA have a very big stake in this and are very involved around these matters

Tim Watson debuted in 1977. I'm pretty sure players had day jobs back then, just trained at night, played on Saturdays, and only played in Melbourne aside from the occasional bus trip to Geelong.

No way a 15 yo could be expected to take on today's pro footy commitment full time.

 

[Soggy2112]

I don’t really get why the whole “hit rate” thing is really an issue. Every year roughly 30 players retire “voluntarily”, voluntarily being generous as that includes the players who jump before they’re pushed. That means every year there is close to 3-4 times the amount of players entering the league as there are exiting. Those numbers suggest that the system is designed so that more players won’t make it then will, is increasing the age to 21 going to change that?

If the concern is that top draft picks are busts too often then I think a much bigger concern would be the detrimental impact on the league of top end talent having to delay their careers by 3-4 years.

 

[Vader]

I don’t really get why the whole “hit rate” thing is really an issue. Every year roughly 30 players retire “voluntarily”, voluntarily being generous as that includes the players who jump before they’re pushed. That means every year there is close to 3-4 times the amount of players entering the league as there are exiting. Those numbers suggest that the system is designed so that more players won’t make it then will, is increasing the age to 21 going to change that?

If the concern is that top draft picks are busts too often then I think a much bigger concern would be the detrimental impact on the league of top end talent having to delay their careers by 3-4 years.

I think it's about reducing the number of "misses" in the first and (maybe) second rounds of the draft. It's not so much about reducing the "miss rate" for the later rounds, which are always going to be low probability - for the very reasons you outlined.

There are a few valid reasons for raising the draft age, but they pale into insignificance (in my opinion) when compared with the reasons for not raising it any further.

 

[ATsince1973]

When Tim Watson was asked about this as a teen in 1976, he said “Yeah, but what about the Adelaide Crows 2021 list management?”


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[flashcrow]

Back during the Vietnam War, you could be drafted for National Service at 18, but you couldn't legally operate a lift in a department store until you were 21.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Back during the Vietnam War, you could be drafted for National Service at 18, but you couldn't legally operate a lift in a department store until you were 21.

The big laugh was that you could fight & die in Vietnam .....yet not be legally able to drink ....21 yo was the age limit then to drink