Adelaide's decline

[Soberian Tiger]

The symptoms can be described in just two words: Tyson Stengle.

He was a talented youngster at Punt Rd, now he's a talented youngster with a serious question mark hanging over his behaviour.

Part of the cure can also be described in two words as well, one of which is Ricciuto.

 

[BronCrow]

I did think of Doughty when making my last post. I seem to recall him being a bit more consistently reliable and able to do a better job defensively than Mackay, though. A bit more of an "honest toiler, playing within his limitations", kind of like a Luke Brown type, if he pushed up more up the field.



Mackay and Grigg are different types of midfielders, but I'd say Grigg is far more of what the Crows have needed in the last few years than Mackay is. Grigg would have been a very poor man's Dangerfield type. I would have also kept and given more opportunity to Jarryd 'Sub Rule' Lyons as well, going back a ways, but that's a different story.

Yes, Doughty is better than Mackay, but nowhere near as good as Luke Brown, who I thought was one of the few on Saturday night who could have held his head high, as he kept Robbie Gray quiet. Michael Doughty would have not played 200 games at most other clubs. Though there are other guys like that at most clubs, Ben Johnson might fall in to that category.

Whilst I know they are different players, the fact they got rid of Grigg so easily says everything you need to know about the Crows. Probably unfair to compare a guy who was spat out the system too easily to Dangerfield. Most Crows supporters would have kept Jarryd Lyons as well. He wanted to stay as well, which makes the fact we let him go all the more stupefying.

 

[BronCrow]

The symptoms can be described in just two words: Tyson Stengle.

He was a talented youngster at Punt Rd, now he's a talented youngster with a serious question mark hanging over his behaviour.

Part of the cure can also be described in two words as well, one of which is Ricciuto.

Is the other part of the cure the word remove?

As for the first part of that statement, is Tyson Stengle's drink driving incident because of culture issues at the Adelaide Football Club.

If so, are you also suggesting that there are culture issues at the Bulldogs, due to Lachie Hunter's actions?

There have also been COVID-19 restriction breaches by players from Melbourne, North Melbourne and Fremantle. Do those clubs all have culture issues as well?

 

[Schulzenfest]

As much as I wouldn't miss a chance to pot them, you can't blame the Crows for Stengle's issues. With his family background, the fact that he's in any sort of gainful employment whatsoever means he's exceeded expectations.

 

[BronCrow]

As much as I wouldn't miss a chance to pot them, you can't blame the Crows for Stengle's issues. With his family background, the fact that he's in any sort of gainful employment whatsoever means he's exceeded expectations.

Please, feel free to criticise, we mostly deserve it at the moment. I have been very critical of the club, but you are right, the Crows are not to blame for Stengle's drink driving incident.

 

[Papa G]

Adelaide were actually very good recruiters. And talent identifiers. But there's something about the place that makes players want to leave. The amount of talent that has left that club is phenomenal. No other clubs outside the expansion sides see that kind of exodus. It puts way too much pressure back on the recruiters to replace them, and they've seem to get it wrong recently, or had the wrong strategies and those players that have left are bloody hard to replace. Outside of Dodee and Milera they dont really seem to have much young talent coming through. Their under 25s would be the worst in the comp.

The Footy Park precinct, now more than ever is a very barren, bleak, stark and sterile place. There is nothing welcoming about it. It just has a beige shit vibe and the Crows need to get the **** away from there. The place has no soul and at the moment the Crows don't seem to either.

 

[BronCrow]

Adelaide were actually very good recruiters. And talent identifiers. But there's something about the place that makes players want to leave. The amount of talent that has left that club is phenomenal. No other clubs outside the expansion sides see that kind of exodus. It puts way too much pressure back on the recruiters to replace them, and they've seem to get it wrong recently, or had the wrong strategies and those players that have left are bloody hard to replace. Outside of Dodee and Milera they dont really seem to have much young talent coming through. Their under 25s would be the worst in the comp.

The Footy Park precinct, now more than ever is a very barren, bleak, stark and sterile place. There is nothing welcoming about it. It just has a beige shit vibe and the Crows need to get the fu** away from there. The place has no soul and at the moment the Crows don't seem to either.

Emphasis on the were part. Ever since Matt Rendell was unceremoniously dumped, the recruiting at the club has gone down hill. The list management is also terrible, though headed by the son of another long time employee he will have a job for life. I would add Fogarty to your list with Doedee and Milera, though Fogarty had a stinker on the weekend, though not many didn't for us. I also think Jones, McHenry and McAsey are worth persisting with. The under 25's are considered bad because they have been given little exposure whilst we wasted games on guys like Mackay and Gibbs.

They need to move from Footy Park, which is all the things you have described, and not close to the city. Despite this, the Aquatic Centre Plan was never going to work, due to the local residents and the Adelaide City Council. Thebarton Oval would have been a much better alternative. I know you and I have disagreed on another issue just recently, but you could not be more correct this one, especially the second part.

 

[Damon_3388]

Whilst I know they are different players, the fact they got rid of Grigg so easily says everything you need to know about the Crows. Probably unfair to compare a guy who was spat out the system too easily to Dangerfield.

I was thinking in terms of being an explosive, attacking/goalkicking mid type. I don't think Grigg would have ever approached Danger's output, but he certainly could have been given much more of a go. Even if he turned out to be 2009 Chris Knights, that's a lot more than they're likely to get from a Ben Crocker or Ben Davis floating around the forward 50 and half forward line.

Part of the cure can also be described in two words as well, one of which is Ricciuto.

I think at this point, he needs to actually step up into one of the major off-field roles, or step away. He's not the Chairman (Rob Chapman), he's not the CEO (Andrew Fagan), and he's not the Head of Football (Adam Kelly), yet as a board member, he seems to and is generally perceived to hold more sway at the Crows than all three. Just feels like too much of a distraction and feels like he's too unofficially meddlesome otherwise.

 

[LiddleCharlie]

I recognize a culture problem when I see one - due to my own rabble of a side having one for a very long time. Adelaide have a culture problem. They need to strip it all back and start from scratch. Although its nearly at the point where the AFL may need to step in and do it for them. Adelaide seem pretty much incapable of doing it, or anything productive for that matter.

 

[BronCrow]

I recognize a culture problem when I see one - due to my own rabble of a side having one for a very long time. Adelaide have a culture problem. They need to strip it all back and start from scratch. Although its nearly at the point where the AFL may need to step in and do it for them. Adelaide seem pretty much incapable of doing it, or anything productive for that matter.

For there to be a culture change, there would have to be major change at board level. For this to happen, the AFL would have to step in, as the members can only vote on 2 of the 9 members of the board. This is also the case with Port Adelaide, and also with both Western Australian clubs.


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[Freomaniac]

The Crows have finished in the top 4 twice in the past decade. They've also finished 10th or below 6 times in the past decade. They've got much more of a record of mediocrity recently than they do of great success. They have decent seasons often enough, and have a consistent, stable support and financial base, so people seem to think they're more successful than they actually are.

Most were picking Adelaide to be a bottom 4-6 side this year, and they'll probably end up right in that range. So what is all the fuss about, exactly?

Yeah, they looked extra insipid and unimpressive on the weekend, but these are also unprecedented circumstances for all clubs, and they came up against a side in Port whose exact strengths (contested ball, tackling, doing the hard stuff) are the Crows' biggest weaknesses, so I don't think this is really that big a deal outside of Adelaide, is it?

You said the crows finished in the top 4 twice in the past 10 years. that is true. Should of been 3 in 10 years had they not lost to west coast in the final round of 2016 as they could of got 3rd spot had they won.

You crap on the crows of finishing 10 th or below in 6 times out of 10. They finished bottom 4 only twice in 29 years: 1999 and 2011. So crows standard are very moderate to high compared to some sides.

You need to look at all the years.....

2010: Neil Craig has been the coach of the crows since mid 2004 when he was a caretaker coach after taking over from Gary ayres.. The made finals each year in that 2005-9 period. Started the season 0-6. Were 3-8 at the half way point. then was 3-9. Win 4 in a row and became 7-9 with a faint hope of finals. They lose 3 in a row to become 7-12 and end up 9-13 and 11th spot. Andrew McCleod, Tyson edwards, Simon Goodwin and Brett Burton retired.

2011: Beat the hawks in the opening round. Then win 2 of the next 12 games to have a 3-10 record. Ended up with a 7-15 record, 14th out of 17th and bottom 4. Easily the worse year in their history.

2012: Made top 2 with a soft draw with Port, GWS, GC and some how had an injury riddled freo twice. Finish 2nd with 17 wins and a % of 132.5. Hawks finish top with 17 wins and a % of 150%. Crows lost to the swans in a home QF, narrowly defeats freo in a home semi and narrowly loses to the hawks at the MCG. Kurt Tippett walks out the crows controversially, Crows lose 1st and 2nd round picks for both the 2012 and 2013 drafts because there was a dodgy deal in Kurt tippets contract.

2013: Season starts badly lose to Essendon at home by 35 points. The season starts to rot. They were 5-4 after 9 games. then Taylor walker did his knee and is out for 12 months. Crows end up 11th with a 10-12 record. narrow defeats to Freo, west coast and in both showdowns killed of the crows finals chances.

2014: Went 0-3. then 3-3. Ended up 10th with 11 wins and 11 losses. they lost 4 games by 2 goals or less: Demons at home by 3, Carlton by 5, essendon by 9 and hawks by 12 in Adelaide. Brenton Sanderson is sacked after 2 years of no finals.

2015: Started strong winning their 1st 3 games. Had the phil walsh tragedy on July 3rd. Made finals with 13 wins and beat the dogs at the MCG in an elim final and lose to hawks in the semis.

2016: Had a very good regular season. Finished 5th with 16 wins and 6 defeats. Had they beaten west coast at home in the final round, they would of got 3rd. Beat the roos in the elim final at home and then lose to swans in the semi finals.

2017: Went 6-0. Was 9-3 in round 12. From round 15 to round 21 got 6 wins and a draw (vs Collingwood). Finished top with 15 wins and a draw. Grinds out a QF win vs GWS, Belts cats in the prelim in Adelaide. Then loses the grand final vs Richmond.

2018: Start the season with a narrow 12 point loss to essendon after going 20points up at 3 quarter time. thats one of 3 narrow defeats the othr was a 5 point loss to Port and a 3 point loss to freo. End up 12th with 12 wins and 10 defeats, in which most seasons, 12 wins gave you 8th spot. Cats got 8th win 13 wins.

2019: Started well had a decent record of 8-5 by round 13. Had the bye had a 10-9 record with 3 games to go but lost heavily to West coast, collingwood and bulldogs. Ended up 11th with 10 wins and 12 defeats.


So the crows start the decade with arguably the worst 2 years in their history. But from 2012-19 their lowest amont of wins is 10 wins, their most is 17 wins.


The point is They had mild to moderate success in this 2010-19 period. They made finals in 2012, 2015, 2016 and 2017. They should of made finals in other years such as 2013, 2014, 2018 and 2019. They were capable of having a finals run from 2015-19 just like 10 years prior they had a finals run of 2005-09 under neil craig.

I agree, some people from the outside view think the crows are successful due to filling out Adelaide oval every week. Off field wise I agree to that.


But the crows do want that elusive flag and they had that chance in 2017.

 

[Freomaniac]

This is my opinion. People blame the coach, or they blame the crows board such as mark ruccuito. Some even blame the players for under performing.

However...... This is my honest opinion. One of the crows biggest departures was David Noble. He was the crows list manager until about late 2016- early 2017.

For the record Guess where David Noble is at right now? He is at the Brisbane Lions and he has not done too may things wrong in the last 3-4 years there.

 

[The Casey Cat]

For there to be a culture change, there would have to be major change at board level.

And they need to really see where problems are and accept change is necessary. From actions and comments of Chapman, Ricciouto and Fagan their heads remain in the sand. For the sake of the club all 3 need to #### off very quickly. No rebuild can be properly achieved with them there.

 

[Blue1980]

Exactly. Maybe he just never was any good but made to look ok given he got given the ball a lot.

Well no, he was good last few seasons for us (2014-17 really) and very good first season at crows.

But he had these times for us even in his good years where it looked like he was there physically but not mentally, just racking up 25 meaningless touches when we got flogged.

Seems that happened at Adelaide last year, until he stopped winning the ball at all.

Not sure if he’s physically cooked, not emotionally invested in the club or just doesn’t care anymore because now it’s likely his only career finals will have come at Carlton.

 

[PAFC_1870]

Ever since Matt Rendell was unceremoniously dumped,

This is the big thing.

Ports drafting the last 4-5 years has been virtually 100%.

Adelaide the complete polar opposite.

The years before.... Switch it 100%. Every late pick was good value.

Though I'd also suggest you get more serviceable types late in drafts, not game breakers, and they, by missing early selections, have virtually none.

 

[PAFC_1870]

And they need to really see where problems are and accept change is necessary. From actions and comments of Chapman, Ricciouto and Fagan their heads remain in the sand. For the sake of the club all 3 need to #### off very quickly. No rebuild can be properly achieved with them there.

Interestingly Rowey of all people suggested yesterday maybe the review didn't go far enough....

 

[Alwaysacrow]

Whilst I think you are mostly right about Fagan, the board need to go first. I wonder how much Fagan has tried to get done that the board has knocked back?

Maybe.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Interestingly Rowey of all people suggested yesterday maybe the review didn't go far enough....

I’ve heard this Rowey mentioned

is he some sort of influential commentator?

 

[Papa G]

I’ve heard this Rowey mentioned

is he some sort of influential commentator?

He's a complete and utter ememotive idiot, and plays that role to Bickleys straight man on 5aa which I guess is the SA equivalent to 3AW. Their Drive Sports/Footy show is the most listened to in SA. Crows sycophant and Ambassador, their show, whilst Port do get a run, like most media in SA, is pro Crow (which is part of the AFC's problems) He'll stick up for the Crows on pretty much anything, so when people say "even Rowie thinks the Crows have stuffed up, it is probably an understatement as to the level of that stuffup"

 

[Schulzenfest]

Interestingly Rowey of all people suggested yesterday maybe the review didn't go far enough....

It was conducted by two of Mark Riccuito's colleagues. Of course it didn't. It was compromised from the moment it began.

 

[Tas]

Top end talent takes an extreme amount of pressure off the rest of the list.
Brief history of first round picks
2003: Fergus Watts (14) played 5 games
2004: John Meesen (8) played 2 games
2005: Richard Douglas (16) 246 games Darren Pfeiffer (17) 0 games
2006: James Sellar (14) 21 games
2007: Patrick Dangerfield (10) gone to Geelong
2008: Phil Davis (10) gone to GWS
2009: Daniel Talia (13) 188 games
2010: Brodie Smith (14) 169 games
2011: Brad Crouch (mini draft #10 & mid 1st round comp) 85 games [lost Gunston to Hawthorn for some shit picks]
2012: zip surrendered after Kurt Tippett fiasco [lost Kurt Tippett for nothing]
2013: zip lost 1st and 2nd picks to Kurt Tippett fiasco [Traded Vince for pick 23, took Matt Crouch]
2014: Jake Lever (14) gone to Melbourne
2015: Wayne Milera (11) 62 games Tom Doedee (17) 22 games [lost Dangerfield for 9 and 28]
2016: Jordan Gallucci (15) 27 games
2017: Darcy Fogarty (12) 16 games [lost Lever for pick 10 & 2018 Melbourne 1st round pick]
2018: Chayce Jones (9) 10 games Ned McHenry (16) 1 game [lost Mitch McGovern for pick 13]
2019: Fischer McAsey (6) 2 games [traded 4 for 6 plus 2020 first round]

Crows have been pretty good at producing really good key position defenders, they have also produced some really good footballers from lesser picks but they have been starved of quality draft picks for a long time, have been turning over way too many good players for more shots in the draft that haven't produced equivalent quality. Their overall defensive and competitive nature has seen them not get a good look at many early draft picks. The inevitability is that your position in the ladder is going to reflect the calibre of the list, the coaching and development. It is going to be a self-correcting mechanism, Crows either going to do well from recent batch of younger kids or they are going to get more shots at some talent over the coming years.

The vast majority of clubs that are passing them atm have sucked dick for a long period of time or have received handouts from the AFL. Crows shooting themselves in the foot with the Tippett thing didn't help either.

 

[PAFC_1870]

What's interesting with their lack of top draft picks is it doesn't marry up to losing all these quality players.

Their trading for the most part is average, getting value outta the losses hasn't been great.

At the time Cameron seemed a great deal for them but in retrospect maybe not.

Coughing up alot for Gibbs was an obvious mistake.

 

[Tas]

What's interesting with their lack of top draft picks is it doesn't marry up to losing all these quality players.

Their trading for the most part is average, getting value outta the losses hasn't been great.

At the time Cameron seemed a great deal for them but in retrospect maybe not.

Coughing up alot for Gibbs was an obvious mistake.

In hindsight they didn't read the leaves, they made a grand final not long ago and believed they could go the next step with a few additions, but the form of a number of guys took a significant dive after that year.

 

[PAFC_1870]

And here's proof of the Adelaide Media blowing wind up their ass again....
Second biggest headline on AdelaideNow atm.

They'll find any way possible to put a fluff piece out there for the masses.

This is EXACTLY why they will continue on, controlling the public perception.

That 1 goal he kicked, was impressive, 20% of his teams output actually... should get a statue, actually why stop there... a cutout face in the Sunday Mail.... fking idiots.

 

[MadMundy]

Just a lot of internal issues that need sorting out. I reckon they can do it, but it'll be a negative impact in the short term.