AFC Depth Chart round 1 2008

[Wallace]

Hi Everyone. In the NFL it is common for teams to develop a depth chart during their pre-season in order to identify "starters" at the relevant positions for the coming season. This tends to give the players something to strive for (and the $$).

I thought it would be an interesting exercise to try to generate something of the like for the AFC prior to round 1 based on performances (and expectations) from the NAB cup games and players reputations. This is my observations only and as such is clouded by my perceptions on how the players rank (i.e. Douglas and Campbell are really struggling in my view).

As positions in AFL are not as structured as in the NFL I have broken our players into different roles and ranked them. Some players may also appear multiple times as they may be being assessed for both roles. The roles are:

Cover Defenders - focus in negating oponent then providing run
Rebound Defenders - focus in on providing run the negating oponent
Pure Midfielders - Ball getters and running players
Taggers - Negating specialists
Rucks - you know what i mean
Power/Leading forwards - primary marking forwards
Swooping/Crumbing forwards - ground based forwards
Swing Man / Wild Card - Multiple position specialist (ie ruck/forward/defender)

Cover Defenders - 3 Starters
(1) B.Rutten
(2) N.Basset
(3) S.Stevens
(4) K.Massie
(5) G.Gallman

Rebound/Defenders - 2 Starters
(1) N.Bock
(2) G.Johncock
(3) N.Van Berlo
(4) B.Vince
(5) D.Mckay

Pure Midfielders - 8 Starters
(1) T.Edwards
(2) B.Reilly
(3) S.Thompson
(4) C.Knights
(5) J.Porplyzia
(6) N.Van Berlo
(7) B.Symes
(8) B.Vince
(9) D.Mckay
(10) R.Douglas
(11) A.Otten
(12) P.Dangerfield

Tagger - 1 Starter
(1) M.Doughty
(2) R.Shirley
(3) B.Campbell

Power/Leading Forwards - 3 Starters
(1) B.Burton
(2) K.McGregor
(3) J.Sellar
(4) K.Tippett
(5) N.Gill
(6) L.Jericho
(7) T.Hentchel
(8) A.Kite

Swooping/Crumbing forwards - 2 Starters
(1) A.McLeod
(2) S.Goodwin
(3) S.Thompson
(4) J.Porplyzia
(5) J.Jacky

Rucks - 2 Starters
(1) I.Maric
(2) J.Griffin
(3) K.Tippett
(4) B.Moran

Swing Man / Wildcard - 1 Starter
(1) K.Tippett
(2) B.Moran

Couple of interesting observations are that New faces for round 1 could be J.Sellar, K.Tippett and B.Symes and regulars to miss being R.Shirley and N.Gill.

I reckon those on the verge of getting in (and will likely get game time within the first 6 rounds will be B.Moran, D.Mckay and B.Vince

Overall our depth looks great much to the contrary of most public opinion in Victoria

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Some interesting reading there...I did something similar on another board for Hawthorn, but split our "midfield" into two (ball winners and link-men).

 

[Sparno17]

Innovative way at looking at things
I agree that Douglas is struggling. I had less expectation on campbell so his for atm is not worrying me. I see him as a depth player anyway.

Using your chart, what is your round one lineup then? When you add up your starters it comes to 21 ( if ive done the math right ) Leaving one spot for open.

I imagine that currently it would be a contest between Shirley, Mackay and Vince....

For Mine....

Johncock Rutten Basset
Symes Bock Stevens
Doughty Thompson Reilly
McLeoud Sellar Burton
Tippet McGregor Goodwin

R: Maric Porpylzia Knights

INT: Griffen Edwards VanBerlo Shirley

 

[Wallace]

Innovative way at looking at things
I agree that Douglas is struggling. I had less expectation on campbell so his for atm is not worrying me. I see him as a depth player anyway.

Using your chart, what is your round one lineup then? When you add up your starters it comes to 21 ( if ive done the math right ) Leaving one spot for open.

I imagine that currently it would be a contest between Shirley, Mackay and Vince....

For Mine....

Johncock Rutten Basset
Symes Bock Stevens
Doughty Thompson Reilly
McLeoud Sellar Burton
Tippet McGregor Goodwin

R: Maric Porpylzia Knights

INT: Griffen Edwards VanBerlo Shirley

Sorry Fixed now, extended midfield out to 8 - that brings B.Vince into the lineup

My starting 22 would be

B Stevens Rutten Johncock
HB Bassett Bock Symes
C Van Berlo Thomson Knights
HF Mcleod Sellar Goodwin
FF Burton McGregor Tippett

R Maric Edwards Reilly

I/c Doughty, Vince, Griffen and Porplyzia (all rotating through the midfield)

 

[-VC-]

Great idea!

 

[IddyBiddy]

Cover Defenders - focus in negating oponent then providing run
Rebound Defenders - focus in on providing run the negating oponent
Pure Midfielders - Ball getters and running players
Taggers - Negating specialists
Rucks - you know what i mean
Power/Leading forwards - primary marking forwards
Swooping/Crumbing forwards - ground based forwards
Swing Man / Wild Card - Multiple position specialist (ie ruck/forward/defender)

Cover Defenders - 3 Starters
(1) B.Rutten
(2) N.Basset
(3) S.Stevens
(4) K.Massie
(5) G.Gallman

Rebound/Defenders - 2 Starters
(1) N.Bock
(2) G.Johncock
(3) N.Van Berlo
(4) B.Vince
(5) D.Mckay

Pure Midfielders - 8 Starters
(1) T.Edwards
(2) B.Reilly
(3) S.Thompson
(4) C.Knights
(5) J.Porplyzia
(6) N.Van Berlo
(7) B.Symes
(8) B.Vince
(9) D.Mckay
(10) R.Douglas
(11) A.Otten
(12) P.Dangerfield

Tagger - 1 Starter
(1) M.Doughty
(2) R.Shirley
(3) B.Campbell

Power/Leading Forwards - 3 Starters
(1) B.Burton
(2) K.McGregor
(3) J.Sellar
(4) K.Tippett
(5) N.Gill
(6) L.Jericho
(7) T.Hentchel
(8) A.Kite

Swooping/Crumbing forwards - 2 Starters
(1) A.McLeod
(2) S.Goodwin
(3) S.Thompson
(4) J.Porplyzia
(5) J.Jacky

Rucks - 2 Starters
(1) I.Maric
(2) J.Griffin
(3) K.Tippett
(4) B.Moran

Swing Man / Wildcard - 1 Starter
(1) K.Tippett
(2) B.Moran

This certainly is a great tool, shows where we have our weaknesses also (Rucks and Utilities).

I would suggest that Moran could be added to our Cover Defenders list, vB could be added to our taggers list and Andy Otten could be added to our swingman list.

 

[Mismatched]

Rebound/Defenders - 2 Starters
(1) N.Bock
(2) G.Johncock
(3) N.Van Berlo
(4) B.Vince
(5) D.Mckay

Tagger - 1 Starter
(1) M.Doughty
(2) R.Shirley
(3) B.Campbell

Power/Leading Forwards - 3 Starters
(1) B.Burton
(2) K.McGregor
(3) J.Sellar
(4) K.Tippett
(5) N.Gill
(6) L.Jericho
(7) T.Hentchel
(8) A.Kite

Swing Man / Wildcard - 1 Starter
(1) K.Tippett
(2) B.Moran

Just a couple of thoughts on your ratings:
-I would have Mcleod in the Rebounding Defenders as well, because there is a distinct chance thats where he will play.
-I'd probably rate Shirley as a much better tagger than Doughty, hes just had a light pre-season due to a minor niggle.
-Not sure I agree with Gills rating, but then he is yet to play any footy this year, so a bit tough to figure him in.
-I'd also rate Stevens in as a bit of a swinger as well.

 

[conVINCEd]

Great idea.

Surely we need 6 starting defenders? I'd put Symes in as a Rebound Defender. Despite the talk about him moving into the midfield, I think its obvious he'll play on the HBF releasing McLeod into the forward line.

Gill, when fit, will possibly be in front of Sellar and Tippett as a tall foward as well.

 

[The Crows Truth]

Hi Everyone. /QUOTE]

Are some players supposed to be countered in more than 1 category (eg VB, VInce) as the total number of all categories adds up to more than the playing list. If so, then surely there should be further multiple allocations (eg Goodwin small forward AND midfielder)

I suppose as you say there is a lot of blurring of roles in AFL relative to other sports making categorisations somewhat problematic

Overall some interesting analysis Wallace.

 

[crow87]

Nice one Wallace, an interesting and certainly innovative read. What is the general feeling about Sellar? Do we reckon he'll play regularly in the 22?

 

[IddyBiddy]

Nice one Wallace, an interesting and certainly innovative read. What is the general feeling about Sellar? Do we reckon he'll play regularly in the 22?

Just as we cannot judge his performance against Collingwood as the be all and end all, we can't do the same for his quite game against Freo. There is a spot up for grabs, i think Tippett is just in front at the moment due to his flexibility, but lets see how Jimmy performs over the next couple of weeks.

 

[flackjack]

I would have Burton as a swing man too. He definitely can play midfield if required.

 

[Wallace]

Fair call with the comments regarding players fitting in multiple roles. It was purely for the sake of simplicity that I have pidgeon holed some senior players based on comments we hear from NC and the club on where he wants to play different guys (ie Mcleod and Goodwin forward where both would be in the top 4 AFC pure midfielders as well, same goes for Stevens and McGregor being able to play forward and back).

The idea is to try to work out where we are shallow for talent. I think on this basis our midfield looks very healthy and is a testament to NC's development of younger guys (Knights, VB, Porplyzia and Reilly in particular). We have good depth in the backline and taggers. Our depth may be tested in the ruck and power forward roles but to date NC's gamble on youth (Sellar and Tippett and to a lesser degree Moran) has looked very promising.

Overall I think it shoes the NC is a very good list manager and the AFC's draft policy over the past 3-4 years has been very good and maintaining a balanced list.

As always injuries will be the true test

 

[Tails14]

TIppett in two areas and no taylor walker in forwards ??????

Hi Everyone. In the NFL it is common for teams to develop a depth chart during their pre-season in order to identify "starters" at the relevant positions for the coming season. This tends to give the players something to strive for (and the $$).

I thought it would be an interesting exercise to try to generate something of the like for the AFC prior to round 1 based on performances (and expectations) from the NAB cup games and players reputations. This is my observations only and as such is clouded by my perceptions on how the players rank (i.e. Douglas and Campbell are really struggling in my view).

As positions in AFL are not as structured as in the NFL I have broken our players into different roles and ranked them. Some players may also appear multiple times as they may be being assessed for both roles. The roles are:

Cover Defenders - focus in negating oponent then providing run
Rebound Defenders - focus in on providing run the negating oponent
Pure Midfielders - Ball getters and running players
Taggers - Negating specialists
Rucks - you know what i mean
Power/Leading forwards - primary marking forwards
Swooping/Crumbing forwards - ground based forwards
Swing Man / Wild Card - Multiple position specialist (ie ruck/forward/defender)

Cover Defenders - 3 Starters
(1) B.Rutten
(2) N.Basset
(3) S.Stevens
(4) K.Massie
(5) G.Gallman

Rebound/Defenders - 2 Starters
(1) N.Bock
(2) G.Johncock
(3) N.Van Berlo
(4) B.Vince
(5) D.Mckay

Pure Midfielders - 8 Starters
(1) T.Edwards
(2) B.Reilly
(3) S.Thompson
(4) C.Knights
(5) J.Porplyzia
(6) N.Van Berlo
(7) B.Symes
(8) B.Vince
(9) D.Mckay
(10) R.Douglas
(11) A.Otten
(12) P.Dangerfield

Tagger - 1 Starter
(1) M.Doughty
(2) R.Shirley
(3) B.Campbell

Power/Leading Forwards - 3 Starters
(1) B.Burton
(2) K.McGregor
(3) J.Sellar
(4) K.Tippett
(5) N.Gill
(6) L.Jericho
(7) T.Hentchel
(8) A.Kite

Swooping/Crumbing forwards - 2 Starters
(1) A.McLeod
(2) S.Goodwin
(3) S.Thompson
(4) J.Porplyzia
(5) J.Jacky

Rucks - 2 Starters
(1) I.Maric
(2) J.Griffin
(3) K.Tippett
(4) B.Moran

Swing Man / Wildcard - 1 Starter
(1) K.Tippett
(2) B.Moran

Couple of interesting observations are that New faces for round 1 could be J.Sellar, K.Tippett and B.Symes and regulars to miss being R.Shirley and N.Gill.

I reckon those on the verge of getting in (and will likely get game time within the first 6 rounds will be B.Moran, D.Mckay and B.Vince

Overall our depth looks great much to the contrary of most public opinion in Victoria

​

 

[IddyBiddy]

TIppett in two areas and no taylor walker in forwards ??????

I think most of us have pretty high (actually huge, massive..) expectations for the Ranger, but until we see him in action its pretty hard to judge at the moment. In fact you Tails would be the best person to judge how he is likely to fit into the team set up (i'm assuming you have seen him play). Your thoughts on this would be great.

 

[-VC-]

Walker would be ahead of Kite in the power/leading forward category right now, but that's probably about all. If he can adapt to SANFL as quickly as he has at every other level he has played then he will move up the chart as the year goes on.

Tippett isn't the only one in two categories. Heaps of guys are because they actually fit into two positions. That was mentioned by Wallace in the original post.

 

[CarnCrows]

Good idea. I would have slightly different categories...

Pure Midfielders change to:
Inside midfielders - ie Thompson
Runners - ie Knights

Power / Leading forwards change to:
Leading Forwards - ie Gill
Stay at Home Forwards - ie Kenny

 

[Vader]

This is an interesting way of looking at the depth of a team list.

There was another thread, which presented a different way of looking at it on the main board during the pre-season:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411570

If you look at it from that perspective, the Crows probably have the least depth of ANY team in the competition. When you consider that we have 11 players who are yet to make their AFL debut (MMC matches not included), with another 4 players with minimal games who are yet to become regular starters, this leaves us with only 25 senior players who are "established". Not only that, but we've lost Biglands for the season, so we're down to 24 - just 2 experienced players outside our best 22.

What this means is that we will be forced to use a lot of rookies this year if we get almost ANY injuries. This is not necessarily a bad thing. What it does mean though is that you can expect our performances to go up and down like a yo-yo, rather than the consistency achieved in 2005-2006 (with 2007 being severely affected by injury). Our best 22 is as good as any other team going around, but how often will injury and/or suspension allow them all to play?

Worth noting that the team I nominated as our "best 22" was done before the start of the MMC.

 

[IddyBiddy]

This is an interesting way of looking at the depth of a team list.

There was another thread, which presented a different way of looking at it on the main board during the pre-season:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411570

If you look at it from that perspective, the Crows probably have the least depth of ANY team in the competition. When you consider that we have 11 players who are yet to make their AFL debut (MMC matches not included), with another 4 players with minimal games who are yet to become regular starters, this leaves us with only 25 senior players who are "established". Not only that, but we've lost Biglands for the season, so we're down to 24 - just 2 experienced players outside our best 22.

What this means is that we will be forced to use a lot of rookies this year if we get almost ANY injuries. This is not necessarily a bad thing. What it does mean though is that you can expect our performances to go up and down like a yo-yo, rather than the consistency achieved in 2005-2006 (with 2007 being severely affected by injury). Our best 22 is as good as any other team going around, but how often will injury and/or suspension allow them all to play?

Worth noting that the team I nominated as our "best 22" was done before the start of the MMC.

Interesting read also, it does show our actual 'depty' players by that definition is quite light, def a year for blooding. I hope our supporters can hold our nerve due to a good pre-season. BTW i laughed at the Proven useless category, i think there are few clubs that shoud look at that one also...

 

[Vader]

Consider the number of players the AFC have used each season over the past decade:

2007: 34 (equal 4th lowest in league)
2006: 32 (2nd lowest)
2005: 31 (lowest by 2)
2004: 37 (2nd highest)
2003: 36
2002: 34
2001: 37
2000: 37
1999: 38
1998: 38

** Stats come from AFL Record Season Guide 2008, which isn't exactly as accurate as it should be. Amongst other errors I've picked up it lists the youngest player in the AFL as Callan Ward (DOB 10/4/1990), who is 15 days older than our own Taylor Walker (25/10/90). Oh well....

Not sure when the last time list sizes were reduced, but I suspect the 1998-2001 numbers are by larger lists.

2004 is an aberration caused by Neil Craig taking over mid-season. He wanted to see what the players on the list were capable of, so gave every player (except Josh Krueger) a game.

2005 & 2006 saw the club having an extremely stable lineup, which no doubt contributed to the on-field success. The downside is that this left few opportunities for the youngsters to impress, with the AFC having only 6 (avg 10.5 across the league) debutants during this period, with only St Kilda (4) having fewer - Brisbane had 21 debutants in the same period!

Historically (over the last 5 years), the average across the AFL has been around 34 players used.

With only 28 experienced players to choose from (29 less Biglands), that means we can probably look forward to around 6 players making their debut this year. Interestingly, that would still leave us with a minimum of 12 players looking to debut in 2009 (5 left over from this year, plus any rookie elevations and new draftees).

Sorry if this post is a bit hard to follow. Got somewhat distracted and it wanders all over the place!

 

[Wallace]

Consider the number of players the AFC have used each season over the past decade:

2007: 34 (equal 4th lowest in league)
2006: 32 (2nd lowest)
2005: 31 (lowest by 2)
2004: 37 (2nd highest)
2003: 36
2002: 34
2001: 37
2000: 37
1999: 38
1998: 38

** Stats come from AFL Record Season Guide 2008, which isn't exactly as accurate as it should be. Amongst other errors I've picked up it lists the youngest player in the AFL as Callan Ward (DOB 10/4/1990), who is 15 days older than our own Taylor Walker (25/10/90). Oh well....

Not sure when the last time list sizes were reduced, but I suspect the 1998-2001 numbers are by larger lists.

2004 is an aberration caused by Neil Craig taking over mid-season. He wanted to see what the players on the list were capable of, so gave every player (except Josh Krueger) a game.

2005 & 2006 saw the club having an extremely stable lineup, which no doubt contributed to the on-field success. The downside is that this left few opportunities for the youngsters to impress, with the AFC having only 6 (avg 10.5 across the league) debutants during this period, with only St Kilda (4) having fewer - Brisbane had 21 debutants in the same period!

Historically (over the last 5 years), the average across the AFL has been around 34 players used.

With only 28 experienced players to choose from (29 less Biglands), that means we can probably look forward to around 6 players making their debut this year. Interestingly, that would still leave us with a minimum of 12 players looking to debut in 2009 (5 left over from this year, plus any rookie elevations and new draftees).

Sorry if this post is a bit hard to follow. Got somewhat distracted and it wanders all over the place!

Great post. Vader your analysis is second to none. I sometimes think that just because a player doesnt get a game in a year early on doesnt mean they are not being developed well. Especially young key position prospects. I actually think having Sellar effectively sit out his first year and focus on getting his body ready to play against men was more beneficial than North Melbourne's or Essendon's approach of throwing Hansen and (to a lesser extent) Gumbleton to the wolves in their first year. Both Vic boys struggled and seemed to lose confidence then regress. Sellar on the other hand looks confident in his own body and enthusiastic (ie knows he can match it with the big boys).

All speculation as is a horses for courses game. However, I for one am happy with the AFC's "build em up" approach with the young guys

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

Great post. Vader your analysis is second to none. I sometimes think that just because a player doesnt get a game in a year early on doesnt mean they are not being developed well. Especially young key position prospects. I actually think having Sellar effectively sit out his first year and focus on getting his body ready to play against men was more beneficial than North Melbourne's or Essendon's approach of throwing Hansen and (to a lesser extent) Gumbleton to the wolves in their first year. Both Vic boys struggled and seemed to lose confidence then regress. Sellar on the other hand looks confident in his own body and enthusiastic (ie knows he can match it with the big boys).

All speculation as is a horses for courses game. However, I for one am happy with the AFC's "build em up" approach with the young guys

Correct.

He's still not ready to be a full time forward, but if he can find himself a role as a pinch hitter this year that will speed his development IMO.

Another pre season + another 3 or 4 kilos for Jim and he'll be set to start his career as our #1 forward.

 

[Tails14]

The Ranger will be on show friday nite at norwood in their internal....could possibly play chb as the legs have several key forwrds already....did so against sa state on lee staples.....will be a bit hard tho first game...no training with squad...hardly no anyone but am sure will adapt and show something......has been under a bit of pressure this week as a close teammate in the hill hung himself on tuesday and is on life support but still training and coping well apparently...it has rocked the hill as the kid is on 21 and such a great kid .... wait n see friday eh !

 

[-VC-]

The Ranger will be on show friday nite at norwood in their internal....could possibly play chb as the legs have several key forwrds already....did so against sa state on lee staples.....will be a bit hard tho first game...no training with squad...hardly no anyone but am sure will adapt and show something......has been under a bit of pressure this week as a close teammate in the hill hung himself on tuesday and is on life support but still training and coping well apparently...it has rocked the hill as the kid is on 21 and such a great kid .... wait n see friday eh !

****ing hell!

 

[IddyBiddy]

The Ranger will be on show friday nite at norwood in their internal....could possibly play chb as the legs have several key forwrds already....did so against sa state on lee staples.....will be a bit hard tho first game...no training with squad...hardly no anyone but am sure will adapt and show something......has been under a bit of pressure this week as a close teammate in the hill hung himself on tuesday and is on life support but still training and coping well apparently...it has rocked the hill as the kid is on 21 and such a great kid .... wait n see friday eh !

Very sad to hear, must be terribly hard for everyone who knows him. I hope he recovers and Taylor can keep his spirits up, especially being so far away from home.