Am I a blind optimist?

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Im not sure if it is just me but i can see a light at the end of the tunnel and think there is no reason why we should not be playing finals in a couple of years with a big shot in 2009. These are some players playing now who should still be around by 2009.

Thorton
Scotland Waite O'hAlipin (Fingers crossed)
Walker Murphy Simpson
Whitnall Kennedy
Fevola Fisher
(Ruck?) Stevens

Houlihan

Waite will go back hopefully because we already have enough tall forwards
Fisher may be trade bait
Hopefully Bower or Hartlett can fill KP in the back line.
Russell may come on.
Betts, Blackwell, Bentick and Carrazzo maybe.

that is a pretty go list to start building from.......

 

[trueblue_91]

Im not sure if it is just me but i can see a light at the end of the tunnel and think there is no reason why we should not be playing finals in a couple of years with a big shot in 2009. These are some players playing now who should still be around by 2009.

Thorton
Scotland Waite O'hAlipin (Fingers crossed)
Walker Murphy Simpson
Whitnall Kennedy
Fevola Fisher
(Ruck?) Stevens

Houlihan

Waite will go back hopefully because we already have enough tall forwards
Fisher may be trade bait
Hopefully Bower or Hartlett can fill KP in the back line.
Russell may come on.
Betts, Blackwell, Bentick and Carrazzo maybe.

that is a pretty go list to start building from.......

and remember we are going to get another young gun in this draft hopefully gibbs

 

[Bluebear]

Im not sure if it is just me but i can see a light at the end of the tunnel and think there is no reason why we should not be playing finals in a couple of years with a big shot in 2009. These are some players playing now who should still be around by 2009.

Thorton
Scotland Waite O'hAlipin (Fingers crossed)
Walker Murphy Simpson
Whitnall Kennedy
Fevola Fisher
(Ruck?) Stevens

Houlihan

Waite will go back hopefully because we already have enough tall forwards
Fisher may be trade bait
Hopefully Bower or Hartlett can fill KP in the back line.
Russell may come on.
Betts, Blackwell, Bentick and Carrazzo maybe.

that is a pretty go list to start building from.......

At last some optimism.
Look at the results this year. We have not been flogged on a regular basis. We ARE becoming more competitive. Add a young potential match winner like Gibbs and Murph to todays team and we finish 10th!

The bullants have been the best two's side for the past 2 years. Our young guys are growing, it isn't just rhetoric.

GO BLUES!!!!!!!!!

 

[carltonfan43]

wouldnt like to see fisher go. i rate him higher than waite. he has a terrific set of hands and his commitement is first rate

 

[Bluebear]

wouldnt like to see fisher go. i rate him higher than waite. he has a terrific set of hands and his commitement is first rate

Both boys need to get some games strung together. one of the biggest probs this year when they did all play was they don't work as a unit. Getting in each others space (Q: How many injuries to forwrds occured due to friendly fire?)
Look at St Kilda when Riewoldt, Geihrig and Hamil have played together - they almost never contest the same footy.

 

[HBF]

and remember we are going to get another young gun in this draft hopefully gibbs

In this years draft, we should get more than 1.

 

[audas]

There are a lot of posters on these boards who some how dismiss the lack of draft opportunity and have decided to lay our woes almost entirely at the feet of Pagan. Then there are those that still see us being two years away from the eight, minimum. HEre is a sample of teams that have turned it around almost over night. It happens all the time. The blues have a great base to work with and are about to receive a massive injection, so take it that our could be better than any on this list: ............................could be.

Sydney
1994 last
1996 First


Saints
1995 3rd last
1997 first

Footscray
1996 2nd last
1997 3rd

Adelaide
1996 5th last
1997 4th

Melbourne
1997 last
1998 4th

Essendon
1997 3rd last
1999 1st

Brisbane
1998 last
1999 3rd (you know the story)


Port
2000 3rd last
2001 3rd
2002 1st


And in recent years theres also Collingwood, saints, doggies. This list is breif and there are plenty more similar cases. So anyone thinking that teams cant turn it around that quick can get over it. It happens ALL THE TIME. And I see carlton doing it next year in a massive way. We needed these picks big time. A massive injection of talent, coupled with a massive off loading in junk is a huge difference.

Hot diggety, giddyup bring it on.

 

[stokesy]

wouldnt like to see fisher go. i rate him higher than waite. he has a terrific set of hands and his commitement is first rate

I agree, Fisher just about marks everything while Waite just about drops everything.

 

[Bluebear]

There are a lot of posters on these boards who some how dismiss the lack of draft opportunity and have decided to lay our woes almost entirely at the feet of Pagan. Then there are those that still see us being two years away from the eight, minimum. HEre is a sample of teams that have turned it around almost over night. It happens all the time. The blues have a great base to work with and are about to receive a massive injection, so take it that our could be better than any on this list: ............................could be.

Sydney
1994 last
1996 First


Saints
1995 3rd last
1997 first

Footscray
1996 2nd last
1997 3rd

Adelaide
1996 5th last
1997 4th

Melbourne
1997 last
1998 4th

Essendon
1997 3rd last
1999 1st

Brisbane
1998 last
1999 3rd (you know the story)


Port
2000 3rd last
2001 3rd
2002 1st


And in recent years theres also Collingwood, saints, doggies. This list is breif and there are plenty more similar cases. So anyone thinking that teams cant turn it around that quick can get over it. It happens ALL THE TIME. And I see carlton doing it next year in a massive way. We needed these picks big time. A massive injection of talent, coupled with a massive off loading in junk is a huge difference.

Hot diggety, giddyup bring it on.

Thank God someone talking some sense. C'mon Pagan haters, refute this!

 

[as0l0]

if you're a blind optomist, then your not alone because I'm in the same boat, i reckon we aren't far away.

but I wouldn't trade fisher or waite for anything.

 

[thylacine60]

There are a lot of posters on these boards who some how dismiss the lack of draft opportunity and have decided to lay our woes almost entirely at the feet of Pagan. Then there are those that still see us being two years away from the eight, minimum. HEre is a sample of teams that have turned it around almost over night. It happens all the time. The blues have a great base to work with and are about to receive a massive injection, so take it that our could be better than any on this list: ............................could be.

Sydney
1994 last
1996 First


Saints
1995 3rd last
1997 first

Footscray
1996 2nd last
1997 3rd

Adelaide
1996 5th last
1997 4th

Melbourne
1997 last
1998 4th

Essendon
1997 3rd last
1999 1st

Brisbane
1998 last
1999 3rd (you know the story)


Port
2000 3rd last
2001 3rd
2002 1st


And in recent years theres also Collingwood, saints, doggies. This list is breif and there are plenty more similar cases. So anyone thinking that teams cant turn it around that quick can get over it. It happens ALL THE TIME. And I see carlton doing it next year in a massive way. We needed these picks big time. A massive injection of talent, coupled with a massive off loading in junk is a huge difference.

Hot diggety, giddyup bring it on.

Audus, I've been reading this whinge-fest of a forum for some time now - and your post makes more sense and gives me more heart than pretty much anything I've previously seen. Well done, son.

My Membership Card says 1981. I shall be staying.

 

[blues4flag]

There are a lot of posters on these boards who some how dismiss the lack of draft opportunity and have decided to lay our woes almost entirely at the feet of Pagan. Then there are those that still see us being two years away from the eight, minimum. HEre is a sample of teams that have turned it around almost over night. It happens all the time. The blues have a great base to work with and are about to receive a massive injection, so take it that our could be better than any on this list: ............................could be.

Sydney
1994 last
1996 First


Saints
1995 3rd last
1997 first

Footscray
1996 2nd last
1997 3rd

Adelaide
1996 5th last
1997 4th

Melbourne
1997 last
1998 4th

Essendon
1997 3rd last
1999 1st

Brisbane
1998 last
1999 3rd (you know the story)


Port
2000 3rd last
2001 3rd
2002 1st


And in recent years theres also Collingwood, saints, doggies. This list is breif and there are plenty more similar cases. So anyone thinking that teams cant turn it around that quick can get over it. It happens ALL THE TIME. And I see carlton doing it next year in a massive way. We needed these picks big time. A massive injection of talent, coupled with a massive off loading in junk is a huge difference.

Hot diggety, giddyup bring it on.

Just out of curiosity, how many of those team were in the bottom 2 for 4 of the 5 years prior to their turnaround?

 

[mediumsizered]

Just out of curiosity, how many of those team were in the bottom 2 for 4 of the 5 years prior to their turnaround?

Sydney:
1992:15th = bottom, 1993 15th = bottom, 1994: 15th = bottom, 1995:12th out of 16, 1996: 1st after home & away season
St Kilda
1993: 12th, 1994: 13th, 1995: 14th, 1996: 10th, 1997: 1st after H & A season.
It should also be remembered that St Kilda played finals football in 1991 & 1992 after having finished no higher than 9th from 1980 - 1990 in what was predominantly a 12 or 14 team competition, with a final five. During that period they won 5 wooden spoons.

It can be turned around after periods of mediocrity if the right base is put in place when rebuilding.

 

[Bluebear]

Just out of curiosity, how many of those team were in the bottom 2 for 4 of the 5 years prior to their turnaround?

You can take out 2 years for bad behaviour. It is an anomalie, when comparing to other teams due to draft penalties.
Watch the blues rise next year.

 

[kouta 4 president]

You can see patches of when we can play brilliant footy (second half against Hawthorn, first quarter against Richmond) we just need to be able to string it all together for a whole game

 

[BigBlue]

Thank God someone talking some sense. C'mon Pagan haters, refute this!

Carlton 2002 16th
Carlton 2003 15th
Carlton 2004 11th
Carlton 2005 16th
Carlton 2006 Most probably 16th at best 15th

Hmmm, seems to me that your theory just got shot to pieces...

 

[audas]

Carlton 2002 16th
Carlton 2003 15th
Carlton 2004 11th
Carlton 2005 16th
Carlton 2006 Most probably 16th at best 15th

Hmmm, seems to me that your theory just got shot to pieces...

Not if you have any brains. Ill spell it out. We were handed two, thats 2, years of draft penalties. Plus the year we went down heavily due to very poor list management which added another year.

Guess again hey.

 

[audas]

Sydney:
1992:15th = bottom, 1993 15th = bottom, 1994: 15th = bottom, 1995:12th out of 16, 1996: 1st after home & away season
St Kilda
1993: 12th, 1994: 13th, 1995: 14th, 1996: 10th, 1997: 1st after H & A season.
It should also be remembered that St Kilda played finals football in 1991 & 1992 after having finished no higher than 9th from 1980 - 1990 in what was predominantly a 12 or 14 team competition, with a final five. During that period they won 5 wooden spoons.

It can be turned around after periods of mediocrity if the right base is put in place when rebuilding.

And again lets remember here people that assistance was only offered in the draft starting 1993 and that the priority pick as we know it today came into effect in 1997. Hence the effect on both sydney and melbourne can be seen. Streuth, without the help they'd still be there and we all know it.

The pattern is fairly obvious and well known. Ive just stated what everyone else knows, argue all you like.

Perhaps its time to get off Pagans back and get behind the bloody club. (Not meaning you mediumsizered here). The seasons done, we have what we all knew we needed. Some of us straight out wanted them, others didnt (but secretly did), and now we are in a position to rise. Without these picks we would be a lot worse off. So in the end Pagan has done the right thing long term. Im sure you will all get over this season once we start smashing evry team in the league again. If anyone points to the fact we had a bad trot just tell them the truth, it was a vendetta from adelaide perpertrated by wayne jackson for taking bradley and sticks.

Think about it, three brand new champs all equal or better than Murphy running around out there. A choice pick up in the rookie list as well.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I don't want to come off as a prick, but this topic interests me so I thought I'd chip in.

I think if you look at long-term cellar-dwellers St.Kilda and Sydney, they weren't rebuilding when they made their jump to the top of the ladder. It was more a case of a change of coach/tactics and acquiring the right player mix.

I think the side you should look at the most is West Coast. If you look towards the top of the ladder I think you'll find most of the teams occupying higher positions are not side that had comitted to rebuilding. West Coast are an obvious exception, and Fremantle to a degree.

I think the Blues will be up and about by 2009-2010. You've got a good selection of KPPs, but more importantly their development is well-timed. There's no point drafting the big blokes at the same time as midfielders because they take an extra 2-3 years to develop. WC have had the midfield for ages, but nobody to kick to. If you can complement your spine with some good midfielders, flankers and pockets in the next two drafts, I'll put money on the Blues being a force in years to come.

 

[Johnny_3]

Im not sure if it is just me but i can see a light at the end of the tunnel and think there is no reason why we should not be playing finals in a couple of years with a big shot in 2009. These are some players playing now who should still be around by 2009.

Thorton
Scotland Waite O'hAlipin (Fingers crossed)
Walker Murphy Simpson
Whitnall Kennedy
Fevola Fisher
(Ruck?) Stevens

Houlihan

Waite will go back hopefully because we already have enough tall forwards
Fisher may be trade bait
Hopefully Bower or Hartlett can fill KP in the back line.
Russell may come on.
Betts, Blackwell, Bentick and Carrazzo maybe.

that is a pretty go list to start building from.......

Thorton, maybye matty lappin, aisake ohailpin
Scotland (maybye not), Waite, Sentanta
Walker Murphy Simpson ... doesnt that just sound awesome
Fisher Kennedy Betts
Whitnall Fevola Lappo

Bryan Gibbs Judd ... just hoping for that last one

Bench: Bannister, Hartlett, Russel, Bentick, Gardiner, Blackwell, Smith.. take your pick, hopefully we get gardiner though

Carlton: Premiers 2009 - 2020

 

[BigBlue]

Not if you have any brains. Ill spell it out. We were handed two, thats 2, years of draft penalties. Plus the year we went down heavily due to very poor list management which added another year.

Guess again hey.

Ahhh, another Disciple of the Pagan excuse book. Well done audas, nice to see you're looking at things in a rational manner.

No more excuses, irrespective of who it is - it's time to deliver or **** off. Pagan is a hack of the highest order and you and your mates know it. You just don't want to confront the truth.

 

[jj1978]

I don't want to come off as a prick, but this topic interests me so I thought I'd chip in.

I think if you look at long-term cellar-dwellers St.Kilda and Sydney, they weren't rebuilding when they made their jump to the top of the ladder. It was more a case of a change of coach/tactics and acquiring the right player mix.

I think the side you should look at the most is West Coast. If you look towards the top of the ladder I think you'll find most of the teams occupying higher positions are not side that had comitted to rebuilding. West Coast are an obvious exception, and Fremantle to a degree.

I think the Blues will be up and about by 2009-2010. You've got a good selection of KPPs, but more importantly their development is well-timed. There's no point drafting the big blokes at the same time as midfielders because they take an extra 2-3 years to develop. WC have had the midfield for ages, but nobody to kick to. If you can complement your spine with some good midfielders, flankers and pockets in the next two drafts, I'll put money on the Blues being a force in years to come.

Interesting points,

I'm not anti-pagan, but in terms of all those teams that did drastically improve (Audus posts), which ones were because of a new coach?

I think Eade had a big effect on Sydney, Wallace on the Bulldogs, Alves at the Saints. The closest resemblence to us at the moment that I can see is Walls at Brisbane. Spent a few years building a team and it wasn't till his final year (95) that they made it to 8th (where they played us 1st round of finals and behind us were the in-form team and we only won by 2 goals!!).

So for just arguments sake, yes I agree a new coach can have a good effect on a team, maybe not long lasting (Frawley at Richmond).

But Pagan should stay and be given one year more to show he can do what we hoped he would.

 

[HBF]

What we all need to remember is that most kids take time to develop - period!! Alot of people get caught up in the Judd and Riewoldt types, whereby they have an impact almost from day one. The truth of the matter is that kids need to be in the system for 2-4 years before they really start having an impact.

Of course there are players that don't make it that are taken as high picks, and there are players that do make it that were taken well down draft order.

It took Simpson some time to even break into the team, and now he is one of our most important players. Same with Walks, alot of people (including me), thought he would have an impact straight away as the club was saying he was going to be the next Kouta, the saviour, that sort of crap. The truth is though, we have to be patient with most of the kids that are recruited.

That's why i'm in the same boat as Audas, and I think Pagan deserves to get to coach these kids when they've been given time to develop. Sure he goes into most games with a defensive mindset, but given the talent available to him, i'm not sure he has too many options. If we go for a plain out shoot-out, we'd get smasked almost every week. The list just does not have the skills or the experience right at the moment to compete with most clubs.

However, I do think from next year onwards, Pagan needs to back the players' ability somewhat, and let them attack a bit more, he needs to instill some confidence back into the players. Even if that means, for instance, playing Lance at CHF, playing Waite at CHB, playing Setanta off a HBF and playing Walks off a wing. I'd also like to see Hartlett given a go at FB, providing that he remains injury free throughout the preseason, and so on.

I'm excited about what COULD happen next year, but i'm also a realist and know where the club is at. IMO, we're in year 4 of a 5 year sentence, so I think we could move up the ladder a bit, and 2008 could challenge for a top 8 finish.

 

[bibi01]

it's not blind optimist, it's called taking a realistic and balanced view of our situation.

 

[Bluebear]

Carlton 2002 16th
Carlton 2003 15th
Carlton 2004 11th
Carlton 2005 16th
Carlton 2006 Most probably 16th at best 15th

Hmmm, seems to me that your theory just got shot to pieces...

When did Dennis arrive at the club BigBlue?????????????????

End of 2002 - so count that one out.
Took the helm of a ship on the slide, but lifted us one place. Next took us to 11th with a recyled list forced on him by draft picks.

The count should start at 2005. Two genuine years on the bottom that are "his fault" but he is devloping a list. Look to the other stats on this thread for what could happen in the next couple of years - he has brought a good list together - with Murph, Kennedy and Gibbs it can become a great list. Get polak or Bower/Hartlett?carlos into CHB/FB and we are on the way - ruck is insignificant, but would be nice to have a good one.