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Are we cursed?

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domus said:
More of the same pompous waffle. So brave and such a realist. :rolleyes: I've seen us lose plenty of finals and grand finals when I've happily acknowledged we were beaten by a better side. You and others can lecture those of us who believe we have been on the losing end of some appallingly bad luck but you have not responded to my post where I listed 8 grand finals we have lost by margins under ten points or drawn. Each one of these games could have gone either way right up until the last minute. Your argument that it's all a matter of us not being good enough is ridiculous. Are you suggesting that the sides who drew with us or won by less than a kick were clearly our superior and more deserving of their win than us even though they were behind with minutes remaining in the grand final? Why weren't these superior teams leading us by comfortable margins? Did they plan to keep it close to the bone to make the game more exciting?

As far as having big leads fritted away, I have to laugh. On Saturday night we stormed home and had we won you (if you are consistent) would have been disgusted by the fact that we were 33 points down to begin with. Nothing but bad luck (it certainly wasn't good football by the Giants) prevented us from going into the record books for record finals comebacks but no- we hit the post and skim an elbow. If it was Carlton, the Lions, the Eagles or Richmond in finals gone by, they would have missed the post by five centimetres and missed that pointy elbow.

I am gutted by our latest exit, particularly given the pathetic effort by the Giants. No-one will ever convince me we are not an unlucky club, including Buckley who spouts the nonsense "You get what you deserve" If that is true then clearly we deserve injuries to key players every year and we deserve to lose finals and grand finals by less than a kick. I suppose Shaz deserves four knee reconstructions and we deserve out heartache. Does Bucks apply that same philosophy to every day life? You get cancer, you dive into a pool and break your neck, you win tattslotto when you already live a comfortable life….while the bloke down the street trying to keep his head above water gets retrenched?

You get what you deserve. What utter tosh.

I don't know any Collingwood fan who doesn't know in their heart of hearts when we have been beaten by a clearly better team. When Geelong and Richmond pumped us in GF's I happily congratulated the opposition fans around me even though it hurt. It's those games when you know deep in your gut, that we lost what was within our grasp due to one moment-a poor ump decision, a terrible bounce which turned what was a golden chance to score into an attacking move for your opponent or a piece of play where an opposition player wins the game with a play he couldn't replicate again. All of these moments are not a result of our ineptitude but a matter of something entirely out of our control which breaks our hearts.

This has happened to us too many times.
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You may have missed Cliffdrabble’s point. After all the whingeing, woe is me etc 8 GFs have still been lost. It serves no worthwhile purpose.
 
domus said:
I'm sorry, but what you wrote has zero credibility. The running theme on this thread has been anyone who dares to suggest bad luck has played a huge role in our ongoing misery is cowardly, childish and ignorant.- a person who simply refuses to look at the cold facts. Any objective person only has to take a quick look at our history in grand finals to realize what an absurd allegation this is.

You mention North and their comparative wealth. What in the name of all that is good does that have to do with us leading more than one grand final with five minutes remaining, only to lose? You say "our failures are mostly self inflicted" _more tommy rot. Some have been self inflicted. Most have been agonizing near misses due to the many factors I have already mentioned in previous posts. The way you and others write one would be inclined to wonder how this train wreck of a club managed to find itself playing in so many grand finals and losing so many of them by a kick or two. Do you have an answer?

How has this poorly managed, incompetent club, outperformed all of the other clubs in the art of reaching the pinnacle of our game, only to fall agonizingly short? Such incompetence must be the envy of the 16 other smoothly run teams. People keep citing our persistence in establishing big leads and squandering them. That notion can be flipped on its head. Are you suggesting Carlton were a superior club as far as administration and coaching was concerned in 1970? If so, was it their grand plan to be trailing by 8 goals at half time or at one stage allowing the opposition to have 18 scoring shots to four at one stage in the first half? Brilliant plan! It is nonsense.

Had we run over the Giants on Saturday night and bar an elbow and goalpost we would have-would you have hailed our team for its magnificent comeback just as everyone did the Blues in 1970? Or would you be outraged by the fact that we allowed the opposition to get so far ahead?

The same can be said for last year. It is an absolute joke for any one to blame that loss on anything other than luck. How often have you heard players and coaches say after a tight win- it could have gone either way, we just happened to be in front when the siren blew? They say it because it is TRUE. It just so happens that we are always on the losing side when that siren sounds and it comes down to a flip of the coin, a bounce of the ball or the blow of a whistle.

When we are outplayed comprehensively in a grand final you congratulate the opposition and look at what went wrong. When you lose by less than a kick you grieve and sit with a sick feeling in your gut that may never go. The pain comes from the fact that there is nothing to learn from the loss-that is the fabricated teddy bear losers cling to. You have lost and you will never have a chance to win that game again. It is gone.

Pretending you can gain something from a grand final loss is the mindset of someone who cannot face reality. Each new opportunity has no relationship whatsoever with any previous chances. Those who say we have endured bad luck are correct. It has been quite a stunning and astonishing story when you look more deeply into our history.
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cliffdrabble said:
That is absolutely true. The greatest luck you have in life is good health. If you don't , no money can compensate.

Your argument falls down when you equate the luck part to Collingwood. We are a very healthy club with a hell of a lot going for us. Our failures are mostly self inflicted. Look at North in comparison, poor as a church mouse in comparison, yet they have built up great sides twice in the last 50 years, whilst we never had. 8 other sides have built great teams in that time, we have not done so once. That's not luck, that's incompetence.

There is no luck involved when you are 44 points up in a GF and lose, or when you kick the first 5 goals of a GF and lose not once but twice, or you are 27 points up in a GF and 3/4 time and lose. There is a trend there.

Blaming luck all the time is the mindset of a loser, and that is perhaps Collingwood's problem.
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What purpose does it serve????
 
Nuwanda said:
Rubbish. You’re making excuses again for yourself.

Rather than continue to do this, open your eyes to the clubs that have been successful both on and off the field.

How many of Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond, West Coast are being ‘subsidised’ by the afl?

Or do you see Collingwood as part of the next rung down of clubs?

I don’t! I’d rather compare my club to the best clubs in the country which is where it was. But hang on, your view is that injuries are the sole reason why we are behind. Oh, and now it’s because other clubs are being ‘subsidised’ by the afl. This is the attitude of someone making excuses.

The clubs I’ve mentioned above should be respected and admired for what they have achieved. There is no reason why we can’t get back there.

It’s proper corporate governance to bring about a change to the president. 20 years in the role is a very long time. It gets to the situation whereby you feel more a sense of ‘ownership’ rather than being the custodian of the club.

Eddie has to be admired what he has done. But IMO he should have passed the baton on a few years ago. There are other great people out there who can lead the club. I’m not saying Craig Kelly is necessarily the answer, however, he recently sold his successful business so may have time on his hands.
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Great Post.

As you say, the Hawks, Cats and Tigers have not only succeeded they have excelled during this period of compromised draws/subsidised clubs. This bloke's argument fails on all fronts.

Change of President - absolute no brainer. But not Kelly. No past Collingwood people please particular a bloke who one suspects was very much involved in leveraging his man (Buckley) into the senior coaching role under the succession plan. Complete fresh set of eyes/ideas with no conflicts involve, thanks very much.
 
jonbe54 said:
Ok so you are aware that there are 17 - yes SEVENTEEN other clubs in this competition - AND that 6 of those are directly subsidized by the controlling organization that runs this competition?

You know the organization that has a VESTED INTEREST in assuring the success of those 6 clubs.

If you are aware of those facts and still come to the conclusion that you posted . . .

Just WOW.
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Clubs like Hawthorn with strong leadership don't sit here and make excuses, sit here and say 'WOW'. They aggressively build an environment to compete as much as possible, winning is expected.

You seem to have more of the Melbourne supporter mentality.
 

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Nuwanda said:
Rubbish. You’re making excuses again for yourself.

Rather than continue to do this, open your eyes to the clubs that have been successful both on and off the field.

How many of Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond, West Coast are being ‘subsidised’ by the afl?

Or do you see Collingwood as part of the next rung down of clubs?

I don’t! I’d rather compare my club to the best clubs in the country which is where it was. But hang on, your view is that injuries are the sole reason why we are behind. Oh, and now it’s because other clubs are being ‘subsidised’ by the afl. This is the attitude of someone making excuses.

The clubs I’ve mentioned above should be respected and admired for what they have achieved. There is no reason why we can’t get back there.

It’s proper corporate governance to bring about a change to the president. 20 years in the role is a very long time. It gets to the situation whereby you feel more a sense of ‘ownership’ rather than being the custodian of the club.

Eddie has to be admired what he has done. But IMO he should have passed the baton on a few years ago. There are other great people out there who can lead the club. I’m not saying Craig Kelly is necessarily the answer, however, he recently sold his successful business so may have time on his hands.
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This x100. Spot on. People need to wake up realise rather than just settling for what we have because its 'safe'.
 
Watching Swanny on Open Mike just before, and remember him getting a club imposed suspension of 2 weeks late in the 2012 season.

Brownlow night rolls around, and ends up with Swan finishing 1 vote less than Mitchell & Cotchin.

FYI - That first week’s suspension, Beams gets the 3 and Wellingham gets the 1. Swanny got 2, 3 and 2 votes before getting suspended. Got the 3 votes second week back too.
 
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Definitely cursed or that's just how shit happened. :think:

No it was this guy.

giphy.gif
 
Mick F said:
You may have missed Cliffdrabble’s point. After all the whingeing, woe is me etc 8 GFs have still been lost. It serves no worthwhile purpose.
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No- the point was not missed. Crying on the shoulder of supporters who have tread the same road and felt the pain is very cathartic. One of the very functions of this forum is to provide the opportunity to connect with like minded supporters and debrief after every game. No-one suggested it will bring back the many flags we have lost. You could say the same about any form of grief counselling or talking about your pain after any traumatic event or loss. (Please don't tell me I'm equating losing flags with fighting in war or losing a loved one-the analogy is apt.)
 
cliffdrabble said:
Blaming luck all the time is the mindset of a loser, and that is perhaps Collingwood's problem.
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I agree with the rest of your post, but there is no universe where the club has a loser mentality - by design we keep contending in an attempt to flag. The reason we waste opportunities is not a result of loser mentality, I don't know the reason(s) but it's not from contending most of the time.
 
I mentioned it earlier in the thread (after a couple of drinks), but I'll try again/expand a bit here:

I think culture and psychology are a big part of it. Collingwood always seems to have a strong backs against the wall culture. We love being the underdogs, causing upsets. That probably gets us into more grand finals than we otherwise would if it were just based on how talented or "good" the list is. Often when we make the GF, we're battling against a mounting injury list, there are key players suspended, underdone players returning from off field scandals, all whilst just plain not being the most talented list in the comp. Assuming our GF opponents aren't facing those same circumstances (to the degree we are anyway), they'd have to be the best, healthiest, most talented team left standing. It would seem that more often than not class, talent and a healthy list will prevail more often than not over a spirited underdog. See the past weekend for a perfect example. All too often, we're in the position that GWS were (even if we're often more competitive).

The other psychological part could be that our record is somewhat self-fulfilling. Looking at numbers alone, an opposition has to carry some extra confidence knowing that they're statistically more likely to win a GF if Collingwood are playing. Conversely, most if not all Collingwood players would be aware of our record on GF day and may carry some extra anxiety. Our history of GF defeats is constantly bandied about by media and opposition trolls throughout the finals series, and you can't tell me the players aren't aware of it.

I don't think it's surprising that our last GF victory was against a club that seems to have even worse premiership scars than us, whilst we were also clearly the healthiest, best team in the comp with little to no off-field distractions. You could argue the succession plan may have been an extra motivator, rather than a distraction - in 2010, anyway.
 

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Everyone read this, is this the self inflicted "curse"?

www.theroar.com.au

Collingwood are the victims of their own hype

Walking into the 2018 grand final, a surreal optimism filled me. The year wasn’t meant to turn out this way. After Collingwood had missed…
www.theroar.com.au
 
AndrewShawble said:
Clubs like Hawthorn with strong leadership don't sit here and make excuses, sit here and say 'WOW'. They aggressively build an environment to compete as much as possible, winning is expected.

You seem to have more of the Melbourne supporter mentality.
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And you seem to have a Hawthorn worshipping mentality wrong board here sunshine.
 
They all wish they were us, enjoy the ride
 
Carringbush2010 said:
Everyone read this, is this the self inflicted "curse"?

www.theroar.com.au

Collingwood are the victims of their own hype

Walking into the 2018 grand final, a surreal optimism filled me. The year wasn’t meant to turn out this way. After Collingwood had missed…
www.theroar.com.au
Click to expand...

A very good read and on the money IMO.

Key quotes that I can certainly relate to:

"For as long as I recall, there has always been some controversy surrounding a Collingwood grand final failure."

"And I wonder how that contributes to the Collingwood culture. Does it create a victim mentality? Are they looking – at least subconsciously – for a reason that they will fail? Does it create a safety net that undermines genuine accountability?

We would’ve won, but…"

"The opposition didn’t beat you. Circumstances did"

"Since 1936, that’s four wins from 24 grand final appearances.

In every six grand finals, Collingwood will win one.

Only St Kilda are worse – one win in eight appearances"

"The club prides itself on being hated. I don’t understand why. If you want to be hated, then you should play the villain.

Hawthorn play the villain with their ruthlessness, unparalled success in the modern game – "

"But I understand, because at Collingwood – and here I’m referring to everybody and everything associated with the club – we talk about how great we are.

Even when we’re not."

"Don’t build yourself up by comparing yourself to clubs who’ve achieved less. That only perpetuates the problem of hype without merit. Surely you aspire to be the best, which means you need to use the best as your standard.

I’ve had this argument with others about Collingwood, and they’ve countered that Collingwood turns record profits, that they have X amount of members, and that they have great facilities."

"But I worry that the Collingwood culture is self-sabotaging. Why strive for greatness when you (and nearly everybody associated with you) laud yourselves for being great regardless? Why find a way to win when it’s much easier to find a reason you’ve lost?"

"But both clubs reinvented themselves.

I wonder if that’s truly possible at Collingwood. As long as I’ve supported them (1987 to 1990 aside), a whirlwind of history, adulation, and even entitlement has created a mystique around the club that is more myth than reality. Any success (e.g. 1990 and 2010) has triggered the full chorus of self-adulation and, worse, self-aggrandisement, and led to the club spectacularly unravelling. When the club has failed, there’s always something.

Always."
 
The decision to give extensions to Reid and Varcoe is why Collingwood just don't win premierships. No other club in our position would make the same decisions re: list management. Our club too frequently lives in the past, or even worse - the present. We never seem to want to better ourselves and take the next step; they're content with simply putting themselves in a position to contend, not to be the head above shoulders, benchmark side of the competition. Collingwood aren't ruthless enough, and whilst it's not as bad as it once was, the truth is that Collingwood has a really bad boys' club culture, which sits at the top of the club. It's not fair to Buckley and his team to remove them at this point in time, but next time the club has a review, I want external recruitment so our club can be run by smart heads who have no ability to make decisions based off their passions for the club.
 

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Help My Club said:
A very good read and on the money IMO.

Key quotes that I can certainly relate to:

"For as long as I recall, there has always been some controversy surrounding a Collingwood grand final failure."

"And I wonder how that contributes to the Collingwood culture. Does it create a victim mentality? Are they looking – at least subconsciously – for a reason that they will fail? Does it create a safety net that undermines genuine accountability?

We would’ve won, but…"

"The opposition didn’t beat you. Circumstances did"

"Since 1936, that’s four wins from 24 grand final appearances.

In every six grand finals, Collingwood will win one.

Only St Kilda are worse – one win in eight appearances"

"The club prides itself on being hated. I don’t understand why. If you want to be hated, then you should play the villain.

Hawthorn play the villain with their ruthlessness, unparalled success in the modern game – "

"But I understand, because at Collingwood – and here I’m referring to everybody and everything associated with the club – we talk about how great we are.

Even when we’re not."

"Don’t build yourself up by comparing yourself to clubs who’ve achieved less. That only perpetuates the problem of hype without merit. Surely you aspire to be the best, which means you need to use the best as your standard.

I’ve had this argument with others about Collingwood, and they’ve countered that Collingwood turns record profits, that they have X amount of members, and that they have great facilities."

"But I worry that the Collingwood culture is self-sabotaging. Why strive for greatness when you (and nearly everybody associated with you) laud yourselves for being great regardless? Why find a way to win when it’s much easier to find a reason you’ve lost?"

"But both clubs reinvented themselves.

I wonder if that’s truly possible at Collingwood. As long as I’ve supported them (1987 to 1990 aside), a whirlwind of history, adulation, and even entitlement has created a mystique around the club that is more myth than reality. Any success (e.g. 1990 and 2010) has triggered the full chorus of self-adulation and, worse, self-aggrandisement, and led to the club spectacularly unravelling. When the club has failed, there’s always something.

Always."
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Sounds like it’s tome for you to walk away from the black and white.

Why not try the Tigers?
 
adammania9 said:
The decision to give extensions to Reid and Varcoe is why Collingwood just don't win premierships. No other club in our position would make the same decisions re: list management. Our club too frequently lives in the past, or even worse - the present. We never seem to want to better ourselves and take the next step; they're content with simply putting themselves in a position to contend, not to be the head above shoulders, benchmark side of the competition. Collingwood aren't ruthless enough, and whilst it's not as bad as it once was, the truth is that Collingwood has a really bad boys' club culture, which sits at the top of the club. It's not fair to Buckley and his team to remove them at this point in time, but next time the club has a review, I want external recruitment so our club can be run by smart heads who have no ability to make decisions based off their passions for the club.
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I think it's more to do with the holy trinity coming out of contract next year, if you sign anyone else you are committing to years and money and restrict keeping Goo, Grunge and Moar
 
jmac70 said:
Sounds like it’s time for you to walk away from the black and white.

Why not try the Tigers?
Click to expand...
Has he really got what it takes to spit on his own coach?
 

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