Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Capital Magpie]

How do you reconcile that with God's supposed omnipotence?

It's a complex theological concept, so I probably can't do it justice, because I don't have the training. But in simple terms that I can understand I have been taught that God has given all his creatures free will, and Lucifer was an angel who rebelled against God, and so he was kicked out of Heaven. Along with his followers, so now they're all Fallen Angels or what are otherwise known as Demons.

I don't pretend to understand God and His ways, but it seems because He gave His creations free will, He is prepared to tolerate some of His creatures rebelling against Him.

 

[Gethelred]

It's a complex theological concept, so I probably can't do it justice, because I don't have the training. But in simple terms that I can understand I have been taught that God has given all his creatures free will, and Lucifer was an angel who rebelled against God, and so he was kicked out of Heaven. Along with his followers, so now they're all Fallen Angels or what are otherwise known as Demons.

I don't pretend to understand God and His ways, but it seems because He gave His creations free will, He is prepared to tolerate some of His creatures rebelling against Him.

Here is my issue: via god's inaction - provided you believe that, if god wanted to act, he could; if you don't believe that, you then believe in limits to omnipotence - he then becomes indirectly responsible for everything Satan does. Simply allowing free will is not a sufficient excuse; if a police officer witnesses a crime and refuses to prosecute or arrest - while this does happen, it's called police discretion, and is a huge issue as far as how it is applied goes - the crime need be relatively minor in order to go unpunished. So, either god views the rebellion and corruption of the human race as not all that bad, or he's complicit in more serious crimes being perpetrated.

 

[Capital Magpie]

Here is my issue: via god's inaction - provided you believe that, if god wanted to act, he could; if you don't believe that, you then believe in limits to omnipotence - he then becomes indirectly responsible for everything Satan does. Simply allowing free will is not a sufficient excuse; if a police officer witnesses a crime and refuses to prosecute or arrest - while this does happen, it's called police discretion, and is a huge issue as far as how it is applied goes - the crime need be relatively minor in order to go unpunished. So, either god views the rebellion and corruption of the human race as not all that bad, or he's complicit in more serious crimes being perpetrated.

I think I understand where you're coming from.

All I can answer in response is that God's ways are not man's ways and in your policeman example, you're putting on to the situation your own values and interpretations as to how you think God should act, but you can't know whether God thinks in that way.

For mine, God is so far above us, we can't expect to understand what his designs and motives are. If we could, and we were right in thinking that God was directly responsible for Satan's actions, then yes, I'd agree with you, God would have been negligent in that scenario. But because we can't really expect to understand how God thinks or rationalises, then that doesn't hold. It follows that if we could think like God and understand His actions and motives then we would be equal to God ourselves.

Call it God's Grand Plan if you like, and it all revolves around the fact that God, for whatever reason, decided to give his creatures free will. I don't understand for what purpose He did that, but I've been taught that He did. The concept of free will could therefore be considered a limit to God's omnipotence, albeit self-imposed by God himself.

 

[iBeng]

Found a new book for the book club...

The Holy Bible: Abridged Beyond the Point of Usefulness

For your convenience, the Bible has been condensed down to one to three sentences per chapter, in pocket-sized form. The Pocket Bible is a perfect companion to Religion: Ruining Everything Since 4004 B.C.

hivemill.com

 

[Gethelred]

I think I understand where you're coming from.

All I can answer in response is that God's ways are not man's ways and in your policeman example, you're putting on to the situation your own values and interpretations as to how you think God should act, but you can't know whether God thinks in that way.

For mine, God is so far above us, we can't expect to understand what his designs and motives are. If we could, and we were right in thinking that God was directly responsible for Satan's actions, then yes, I'd agree with you, God would have been negligent in that scenario. But because we can't really expect to understand how God thinks or rationalises, then that doesn't hold. It follows that if we could think like God and understand His actions and motives then we would be equal to God ourselves.

Call it God's Grand Plan if you like, and it all revolves around the fact that God, for whatever reason, decided to give his creatures free will. I don't understand for what purpose He did that, but I've been taught that He did. The concept of free will could therefore be considered a limit to God's omnipotence, albeit self-imposed by God himself.

Think of it this way: if I wouldn't follow them if they were human, why would I follow them if they're divine? More power, less power; it's the character of the thing, and the ethics.

Placing himself/itself on a moral pedestal whilst also insisting that he/it has provided us with moral guidelines that he doesn't follow is precisely the bullshit we do not accept from mortal leaders.

 

[iBeng]

The whole free will thing is fraught with contradictions. If he gave us free will then we should be rewarded for freely choosing not to believe in him, because that would be the ultimate expression of our free will.

 

[Capital Magpie]

Think of it this way: if I wouldn't follow them if they were human, why would I follow them if they're divine? More power, less power; it's the character of the thing, and the ethics.

Placing himself/itself on a moral pedestal whilst also insisting that he/it has provided us with moral guidelines that he doesn't follow is precisely the bullshit we do not accept from mortal leaders.

Hmmm, not sure if I can I can provide a reasonable response to that, but i'll give it a crack.

I agree that you wouldn't/shouldn't follow a human, with all their frailties, weaknesses and inconsistencies, but God isn't human. He is divine, the Supreme Being.

I don't believe God is like a human but with more power. He always was and always will be and He is the creator, so he's light years above a human with more power.

God doesn't place Himself on a moral pedestal, that appears to be just your perception of Him.

 

[iBeng]

Hmmm, not sure if I can I can provide a reasonable response to that, but i'll give it a crack.

I agree that you wouldn't/shouldn't follow a human, with all their frailties, weaknesses and inconsistencies, but God isn't human. He is divine, the Supreme Being.

I don't believe God is like a human but with more power. He always was and always will be and He is the creator, so he's light years above a human with more power.

God doesn't place Himself on a moral pedestal, that appears to be just your perception of Him.

Then why would he bother with us in the first place? Boredom? Curiosity? Is it possible to have such human traits when hes light years above us with more power? Whats his endgame?

 

[Capital Magpie]

The whole free will thing is fraught with contradictions. If he gave us free will then we should be rewarded for freely choosing not to believe in him, because that would be the ultimate expression of our free will.

That's your view iBeng, but I don't think God shares it. I have been taught that He gave us free will to choose what's right by His teachings and what His Son on earth taught us.

He did so hoping that we would choose the right path, but where people choose the wrong way (eg. choosing not to believe in Him), He won't reward that, but He will try and gently steer them back on the right path. Because He loves humanity and He wants us to ultimately be with Him in Heaven.

 

[Capital Magpie]

Then why would he bother with us in the first place? Boredom? Curiosity? Is it possible to have such human traits when hes light years above us with more power? Whats his endgame?

If I knew that I would be the equivalent of God. I wish I did understand everything He does, or allows to happen, or prevents from happening, but I don't.

 

[iBeng]

That's your view iBeng, but I don't think God shares it. I have been taught that He gave us free will to choose what's right by His teachings and what His Son on earth taught us.

He did so hoping that we would choose the right path, but where people choose the wrong way (eg. choosing not to believe in Him), He won't reward that, but He will try and gently steer them back on the right path. Because He loves humanity and He wants us to ultimately be with Him in Heaven.

Thats not choice. At all. Because you're saying if we DONT choose what his teachings are, we are wrong and we dont receive his reward or whatever.

God is an arseh*le by that definition. Imagine if I gave you free choice to do something, but if you chose not to I threw you into a pit of fire.

 

[iBeng]

If I knew that I would be the equivalent of God. I wish I did understand everything He does, or allows to happen, or prevents from happening, but I don't.

And thats where the whole God concept falls flat, because we as humans, as ANIMALS, are a species that seeks answers and God is not a satisfactory answer at all.

Ive used this example before, but think back to ancient times. Egyptians thought the sun was pulled by a chariot and for many of them that was considered perfectly acceptable as a explanation.

Now? Well, now we know what the sun is. And eventually, we will know what the equivalent of what our creation is/was.

God is just a stop-gap in our knowledge of what we are.

 

[Vdubs]

Here is my issue: via god's inaction - provided you believe that, if god wanted to act, he could; if you don't believe that, you then believe in limits to omnipotence - he then becomes indirectly responsible for everything Satan does. Simply allowing free will is not a sufficient excuse; if a police officer witnesses a crime and refuses to prosecute or arrest - while this does happen, it's called police discretion, and is a huge issue as far as how it is applied goes - the crime need be relatively minor in order to go unpunished. So, either god views the rebellion and corruption of the human race as not all that bad, or he's complicit in more serious crimes being perpetrated.

My interpretations,
If we did not have free will, you would not be sitting here pontificating about such Godly matters.
Can you imagine a world full of controlled people that were sinless, riskless, lacking creativity?
I can not conceive a world without free will because we've always had it.
It is not an excuse, it is THE reason, simplistic as it may seem.
God allows us levity in sinning, but has also given us the pathway to reconciliation with Him. It seems a complex way to do things, but 2 billion people appear to be at peace with that , in varying degrees of adherence and practice.
After this probation period on earth, whether it be hours or decades, we will be judged by Him appropriately, no doubt about that. We may believe what we are taught about this, and that should not disturb any non -believers, yet it does. There is no way we want to convince those who are happy with their self-righteousness; as said before, Jesus came for those who have a desire to know God and be in repentance for their wrongful ways.
Satan is certainly doing a great job at seducing humans into sinhood. Those who denounce that have got more to lose than those who accept that, according to God's teachings.
We are aware of God's big plan, that Jesus is returning, and there will be a finality, and it may or not be in our lifetimes, but in case it is, I am happy and at peace to TRY and live accordingly. Of course I will continue to fail, being so far from Christ-like it's embarrassing
You keep making either-or's regarding YOUR interpretation of a God you don't believe in, but being able to add good measure of blame in case He does exist and you are at odds with His mechanisms.

 

[iBeng]

Do Monkeys not have free will? I think they are pretty free willed. The ones that throw poop do it by their own decision.

 

[Capital Magpie]

Thats not choice. At all. Because you're saying if we DONT choose what his teachings are, we are wrong and we dont receive his reward or whatever.

God is an arseh*le by that definition. Imagine if I gave you free choice to do something, but if you chose not to I threw you into a pit of fire.

I'm saying God gave us all the means to find the right way, and to make our own choices as to how we do that. I've been taught that He hopes that we take the right path, but it's always up to us because He gave us free will.

You seem to have a very literal understanding of Hell (a pit of fire), but as a Christian i've been taught that Hell is merely the absence of God, made so much worse because when souls are judged, they see finally God and want to be with Him for eternity, but are denied that, and their punishment is that they must spend eternity in the absence of God.

 

[iBeng]

I'm saying God gave us all the means to find the right way, and to make our own choices as to how we do that. I've been taught that He hopes that we take the right path, but it's always up to us because He gave us free will.

You seem to have a very literal understanding of Hell (a pit of fire), but as a Christian i've been taught that Hell is merely the absence of God, made so much worse because when souls are judged, they see finally God and want to be with Him for eternity, but are denied that, and their punishment is that they must spend eternity in the absence of God.

So just...back to Earth then?

Would that make reincarnation a thing? Give you a second chance? Or is it literally limbo for eternity? Or can we not use literal descriptions? This is the problem I have with Religion, you make it up as you go.

If what you are saying is true and I only have Free Will because God LET ME have it for the off chance Id accept his methods to live so that we could hang out for eternity after I die, either from cancer or a car crash or old age...Then what the hell? Why dont I just say I love God now then off myself to fast track this process?

 

[Capital Magpie]

And thats where the whole God concept falls flat, because we as humans, as ANIMALS, are a species that seeks answers and God is not a satisfactory answer at all.

Ive used this example before, but think back to ancient times. Egyptians thought the sun was pulled by a chariot and for many of them that was considered perfectly acceptable as a explanation.

Now? Well, now we know what the sun is. And eventually, we will know what the equivalent of what our creation is/was.

God is just a stop-gap in our knowledge of what we are.

I believe that while we may biologically be animals, we are spiritually more than that. God gave us all souls and dominion over the animals, which don't have souls.

Did you know that scientists last century even did experiments of an after-life,and in those experiments they were able to weigh people right at the point of death? They found that people's bodies consistently shed a minute amount of weight right at the moment that they died and the hypothesis is that loss of weight equated to the soul departing the body.

I agree that we're always striving to learn more about why we're here and how we got here, and we're gradually increasing our collective knowledge.

 

[iBeng]

I believe that while we may biologically be animals, we are spiritually more than that. God gave us all souls and dominion over the animals, which don't have souls.

Did you know that scientists last century even did experiments of an after-life,and in those experiments they were able to weigh people right at the point of death? They found that people's bodies consistently shed a minute amount of weight right at the moment that they died and the hypothesis is that loss of weight equated to the soul departing the body.

I agree that we're always striving to learn more about why we're here and how we got here, and we're gradually increasing our collective knowledge.

Did you know electrons have weight and when that weight is removed it can be measured?

Im sure thats no coloration to our electrical nervous system shutting down and dissipating on death though.

And to claim we have dominion over animals? Thats a God Complex if I ever heard one. By that argument we have all failed, all of us, because we all either benefit from the genocide of entire species or we dont do anything to stop it.

Again, your narrative of what God is and whats for us is fraught with inconsistencies and your only reply can be "Its just what God is/does/wants"

 

[Capital Magpie]

So just...back to Earth then?

Would that make reincarnation a thing? Give you a second chance? Or is it literally limbo for eternity? Or can we not use literal descriptions? This is the problem I have with Religion, you make it up as you go.

That's possible, I really don't know. You're right, religion isn't a concrete science and I can understand why that frustrates some people.

If what you are saying is true and I only have Free Will because God LET ME have it for the off chance Id accept his methods to live so that we could hang out for eternity after I die, either from cancer or a car crash or old age...Then what the hell? Why dont I just say I love God now then off myself to fast track this process?

Because you wouldn't be sincere. God considers all life to be sacred, so it is a sin to suicide.

 

[iBeng]

I sure hope this isnt the experiment you refereed to either:

21 grams experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Additionally:

In December 2001, physicist Lewis E. Hollander Jr. published an article in Journal of Scientific Exploration where he exhibited the results of a similar experiment. He tested the weight of one ram, seven ewes, three lambs and one goat at the moment of death, seeking to explore upon MacDougall's purported findings. His experiment showed that seven of the adult sheep varied their weight upon dying, though not losing it, but rather gaining an amount of 18 to 780 grams, which was lost again over time until returning to their initial weight.[10]

In 2009, this experiment was subjected to critical review by Masayoshi Ishida in the same journal. Ishida found Hollander's statement of a transient gain of weight was "not an appropriate expression of the experimental result", though he admitted "the cause of the force event remains to be explained". He also warned about possible malfunctions of the weighing platform in two of the cases.[11]

Similarly inspired by MacDougall's research, physician Gerard Nahum proposed in 2005 a follow-up experiment, based on utilizing an array of electromagnetic detectors to try to pick up any type of escaping energy at the moment of death. He offered to sell his idea to engineering, physics, and philosophy departments at Yale, Stanford, and Duke universities, as well as the Catholic Church, but he was rejected.[12]

 

[iBeng]

How is it sinful to take your own life, but its fine for people to die in horrible ways? The ultimate free will would be to CHOOSE your death. CHOOSE your way out of life rather than wait for it to happen either spontaneous or through cancer or something.

 

[iBeng]

And if we want to start exploring the weighing of souls, Ive been told by several people that souls are our connection to the divine and are therefore non-physical in nature...so how can they have a weight?

And how do they violate the laws of the universe? You cant simply remove matter, you have to change its state. Does the soul float up into space and we just...float out to God?

 

[Capital Magpie]

Did you know electrons have weight and when that weight is removed it can be measured?

Im sure thats no coloration to our electrical nervous system shutting down and dissipating on death though.

You may be right, but think it was an interesting set of experiments nonetheless.

And to claim we have dominion over animals? Thats a God Complex if I ever heard one.

It's in the Bible and what I've been taught. in the same vein, we're custodians of our environment, planet Earth, which is a common concept nowadays.

By that argument we have all failed, all of us, because we all either benefit from the genocide of entire species or we dont do anything to stop it.

We haven't all failed. Humanity as a whole has, but committed individuals are constantly trying to repair the harm which has been done. it's not over yet and we may yet redeem ourselves.

Again, your narrative of what God is and whats for us is fraught with inconsistencies and your only reply can be "Its just what God is/does/wants"

So you say, but I don't see any inconsistencies in my explanations. Happy to debate them again with you if you want. But maybe not now, as I'm on company time and have to get back to work

 

[Capital Magpie]

I sure hope this isnt the experiment you refereed to either:

21 grams experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Additionally:

Nope. The experiments I referred to were done in the 70s.

 

[Capital Magpie]

How is it sinful to take your own life, but its fine for people to die in horrible ways? The ultimate free will would be to CHOOSE your death. CHOOSE your way out of life rather than wait for it to happen either spontaneous or through cancer or something. That sounds like euthanasia which is also a sin.

It's sinful to take your own life or to take the life of others.