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Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
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Incredible, just incredible, did you even read anything i posted at all? it doesn't look like it.
You are just a parrot, nothing else. I explained to you why your interpretation is wrong, Jesus is the way doesn't mean accepting Jesus is the way, in Matthew he states if you love the poor, if you help the miserable, if you sell your possession for others, 'you don't have to do anything for me'. Jesus is not alone in this, many other spiritual leaders have said to the same, the verse you quote 14:6 has profound spiritual significance, where Jesus is saying the way to god is through upright action. This leads to Eterrnal life. But you are stubborn, you will accept no evidence outside of what you have been fed and believe. This is your Gospel, which you won't accept, this is the context that you won't agree with cause you think accepting and preaching means going to heaven. As i said 100/100 for faith 0/100 in spirituality.
People like you are the reason why i lost my faith, it's not Christianity! It's the literal interpretation of the verses that leads to fundamentalism and supremacy, hence you exist and i consider guys like you as a threat, just like i consider any supremacist a threat. The sooner people like you vanish (unlikely but i still have hope) the better it is for the world.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
You explained to me... BLAH BLAH
You told me... BLAH BLAH
You lost your faith before you met me.
You walked away. God has not moved.
You don't like the truth of what being Christian involves and means.
Why should I listen to your "truths'? What are your credentials?
Your agenda is at least transparent. You are threatened by the simple faith of Born Again Christians.
Well, put me on ignore.
lol, typical Vdubs lol it's almost funny watching you squirm in anger.never reply to the point and resort to adhoms to work your way out of your problem. Do you even read anything i post? or you are here for echo chambers to confirm your supremacist attitude? I don't wish to put you under ignore, you remind me why i left your types. Don't confuse your opinion with the way of the Jesus btw, these are two separate things. I follow Jesus path just like i follow Buddhas path, just not your path, which is destructive and supremacist and dangerous.
Even if my credentials are that of the Pope, you still won't accept it. It's irrelevant, you are not here to debatem you are incapable of debating even when i quote the Gospel AND quote Jesus, Jesus says you dont have to follow me to get eternal life, just help the poor! The only thing you are capable of saying 'but but 2 billion people follow this and what are your credentials' LOL.. sad but true. You are not very smart and it shows in your comments.
You don't even know your own Bible! you don't even know what 14:6 means. For you its as simple as accept Jesus and go to heaven, well Jesus' will be crying in heaven for this. Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
LOL. Vdubs is such a great christian, he only follows what suits him. As i said, you remind me of what i left christianity and you affirm my decision with every single post that you make. Jesus weeps in heaven reading your posts. As i said you don't even believe in what Jesus said, outside of what's fed to you by your own beliefs.
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Hey, I've got a group for you!
Andaman Islands' isolated tribes' independence may be in danger
If the Sentinelese are "pacified" following encounters with outsiders, they may suffer the same fate as other tribes in the Andaman Islands.www.nationalgeographic.com
This lot haven't heard the word of god, and I don't think it'll happen any time soon; it's against international law to approach them. There's also the kind of shitty reality that they'd probably shoot you full of arrows on sight, so there's that too.
Maybe it's a worldwide conspiracy to keep putting the end of days off in perpetuity. After all, if Jesus can't return until everyone's been given the option to join the Jesus club, perhaps there's a group of religious people who'd prefer the world not ending. Maybe a group of people who like their life here. A group who have power, money, luxury; all the best this world can give you.
Oh, wait.
View attachment 1026519
Maybe I should take it to the conspiracies board, see how many takers I can get.
People are leaving actually, in record numbers, the chances of Jesus appearing again isn't looking very good
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Vdubs
Hall of Famer
I wonder how you'd react if we had a face to face discussion.
I am actually complimented by what you say about me, and Christians like me- it is the resistance and opposition we expect.
In my real non-keyboard life, I rarely get this opportunity. Today, I had a great discussion with a mate from Turkey, who follows Islam, and whose wife is Catholic from Poland. No angst, just sharing ideas and reasons for our faith.
I feel now that this thread does not lend itself to natural discussion.
Antagonising you is not my aim, but it happens every post. i suggest you put me on ignore as you seem angry, and come across as if you want me to take on what you say.
Whatever you wish to believe is upto you. It's your life, whether you feel complimented or not i honestly don't care. But Jesus disagrees with you. I repeat:
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
You don't even accept what's written in the Gospels as long as it doesn't fit your belief system. As i said, i am not against Christianity, i am against your path. Ask your Muslim friend what he thinks about Jesus not being a son of god?
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
I did. I already knew. We are still mates.
Who is disagreeing with what you quoted?
You have no idea what we give to the poor, but you are quick to jump to your conclusions.
You are the literalist, until it comes to a verse that really challenges.
I am saying accepting Jesus and following him means 'following his way'. Accepting Jesus doesn't mean praying and being an evangelist. You have interpreted 14:6 the wrong way, it doesn't mean what you think it does. Jesus is not the only one who preached it, others have done the same before this, Many many things what Jesus said, Buddha said much before him. Following Jesus means following his path, it's a spiritual path.
So what possessions have you sold and how many poor and blind have you helped? You are busy trying to book a ticket to heaven by being an evangelist lol
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Thanks for your opinion.
I am so far from being an evangelist, but again, thanks for your comment.
It feels inappropriate you, a former believer, so you say, telling a long term believer how to correctly interpret the Bible that we read and discuss every day??
Nothing I say here will gratify or edify you.
"My" interpretation of that verse is fundamental for most practicing Christians around the world.
And the Pope has no relevance in discussions with me- I left the Catholic way of doing it many decades ago. But unlike you, I am not scoliotic about it, and will not get into discussions about a leader of the Catholic Church. We are called Christians because we follow the words and teaching of Jesus only.
You said you are 'compelled' to preach, which makes you an evangelist or tele-evangelist if you are busy trying to convert people online during Covid times. You might not agree but that's what you are.
I speak against your belief systems, not against Christianity, i have told you this a million times, your interpretation is wrong, following 'authority' by being in a cult like following like 'born again Christian group' can never result in anything but appeal to authority. I quoted the verses a 100 times only for you to ignore, Jesus said it's important to do good to the poor and the destitute even if you don't follow me. He says it twice in Matthew, yet you insist, accepting him in the only way. You do great dissservice to the Bible.
This sets a dangerous precedent trying to accept the commercialised version of Christianity. How many of your heathens understand spirituality? When Buddha says , don't kill , don't steal, don't lie, turn your other cheek, sell your possession to the poor, don't follow me instead do good to the mankind ,does it sound much different to you than what Jesus said? Stop tagging yourself as something and see the broader picture, Chrisitianity don't own a copyright on spirituality, never did and never will. This is why the earth Church followed the Christic principle, read up on Gnositicism and Arianism, before the conversion of Constantine. This the birth of your religion, you refuse to acknowlege your own history, funny that.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
You are repeating yourself ad nauseum. Giving to the poor is not off our agenda, as I've said. Following or quoting John 14:6 is just one of the amazing verses in the Bible.; it doesn't negate the other pearlers.
They are not mutually exclusive. EVERYTHING about Jesus is worth quoting, but you don't believe in Him or His words, do you? Or do you?
You pick one verse and go on and on about it.
What about the Great Commission?
Matthew 28:16-20
English Standard Version
The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
Mark 16:14-18
English Standard Version
The Great Commission
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.
And I have never been compelled to preach.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
“Do to others as you would have them do to you.” (Luke 6:31)
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (Matthew 5:44)
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.” (Matthew 6:34)
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:37–40)
“If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” (Matthew 5:39)
“But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.” (Matthew 19:30)
“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” (Luke 20:25, ESV).
“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7, ESV).
and
John 3:16
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
for starters.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (Matthew 5:44)
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.” (Matthew 6:34)
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:37–40)
“If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” (Matthew 5:39)
“But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.” (Matthew 19:30)
“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” (Luke 20:25, ESV).
“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7, ESV).
and
John 3:16
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
for starters.
As an evangelist, you would pick 14:6 the way it suits you, i just showed it to you why you are wrong. Jesus said MULTIPLE times, my path doesn't mean following me, if you 'believe' in my standards for if you believe in my path then follow my path even if you are not my follower. I quoted the Gospel, several verses, yet you think i am cherry picking. Your interpretation of 14:6 is wrong.
Regarding The great commission, wash your mouth with soap. What are you, a brainwashed bandit? Can you tell me where in the Bible the word 'great commision is mentioned? The term is a Roman invention. It goes against EVERYTHING Jesus has wrote about not following him but helping others in Matthew and Luke.
This verse was not present in the original canon till 380 AD. the word great commission is nowhere to be found in the Bible and is put in there by the white evanglicals to convert the lot.
You are a parrot as i said, you are incapable of thinking and reasoning on your own. The Romans were busy trying to tell people Christianity is the way of life and you should accept it or go to hell. It contradicts everything Jesus in the rest of the Gospels
here's further proof:
Great Commission - Wikipedia
Some researchers of the historical Jesus see the Great Commission as reflecting not Jesus' words but rather the Christian community in which each gospel was written. John Dominic Crossan says that Jesus did commission the apostles during his lifetime, as reported in the Gospels. Others, however, see even these lesser commissions as representing Christian invention rather than history.
Some more reading for you:
What is the Great Commission and why is it so controversial?
The term refers to passages in the Christian gospels, in which Jesus urges his apostles to make ‘disciples of all nations.’ Later, it became a prime motivator of missionary efforts.
theconversation.com
Great commission is a scam, no shit you have fallen for it.
The purpose of baptism that you mention is to remove not the original sin of man coming from our ancestors Adam and Eve. But to remove our own sin committed in our life only. We do not inherit sin from the past. see Ezekiel 18:20 of the bible. and see the accounts written in the book of Acts, especially in chapter 2
The more you quote the more you prove that Bible is full of contradictions. You are destroying your own argument. So you think Jesus whe he says 'you dont to follow me to have eternal life if you help the poor" is wrong? LOL.
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Vdubs said:
Great to see you haven't found your truth yet, maybe you are starting to see the light.
In Circle we go , again! we have gone through this, mutiple times. I have shown you the quotes (vast majority of them that you post) came from other places. Do you realise these quotes been ripped off from older texts? we went through this already, which proves my point, Jesus has no copyright on spirituality, you are destroying your own argument.
Half of these quotes been stolen and the other half comes from pagan religions and Conficuous, way to destroy your own argument.
Here's a few:
The Many Similarities Between Jesus and Buddha
Why are there so many similarities in the life story and teachings of Jesus Christ and Buddha? Were the authors of The Holy Bible influenced by Eastern traditions?
owlcation.com
Seeing the light? finally? i hope so.
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Proof that you have been scammed.
Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
“The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.” — Joseph Ratzinger (pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83
Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:
“The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be the historical origin of Christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form expanded by the [Catholic] church.”
New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:
“Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity...”
The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, volume II, page 263:
“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under “Baptism,” says:
“Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.”
Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:
“The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus] down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted.”
etc etc.
These are all from 'experts' and offical versions of the Bible, maybe you missed the footnote? So to sum it up.
- Other Scriptures contradict the words in this verse
- It doesn't appear in any manuscript of Matthew before the third century A.D.
- Early Christians did not follow the instruction to baptise in the formula in Matthew 28:19
- Eusebius had an original copy of Matthew and doesn't quote the words
- The Catholic Church confess to changing the words
- A Hebrew text of Matthew exists that doesn't contain the words
- Most modern theologians agree that the words are inauthentic
The Protestant authority The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Funk & Wagnalls, 1908) at 435 agrees that Matthew 28:19’s trinity formula is a false addition:
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www.jesuswordsonly.com
Try to think for yourself when Muslims say Bible has been tampered with they are right. The Church is on record confessing they did it for converting people. You have no ability to make any crticial thinking outside of what you have been told ! Life must really be fun believing everything you read..when it's a confessed lie. As i said, you are nothing more than a parrot. You don't know your own history. Life must really be good being ignorant, naive and brainwashed.
Roylion i would like your opinion on Matthew 28:19
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Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Proof that you have been scammed.
Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
“The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.” — Joseph Ratzinger (pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83
Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:
“The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be the historical origin of Christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form expanded by the [Catholic] church.”
New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:
“Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity...”
The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, volume II, page 263:
“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under “Baptism,” says:
“Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.”
Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:
“The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus] down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted.”
etc etc.
These are all from 'experts' and offical versions of the Bible, maybe you missed the footnote? So to sum it up.
Not only catholics, even Protestants agree
- Other Scriptures contradict the words in this verse
- It doesn't appear in any manuscript of Matthew before the third century A.D.
- Early Christians did not follow the instruction to baptise in the formula in Matthew 28:19
- Eusebius had an original copy of Matthew and doesn't quote the words
- The Catholic Church confess to changing the words
- A Hebrew text of Matthew exists that doesn't contain the words
- Most modern theologians agree that the words are inauthentic
The Protestant authority The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Funk & Wagnalls, 1908) at 435 agrees that Matthew 28:19’s trinity formula is a false addition:
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Try to think for yourself when Muslims say Bible has been tampered with they are right. The Church is on record confessing they did it for converting people. You have no ability to make any crticial thinking outside of what you have been told ! Life must really be fun believing everything you read..when it's a confessed lie. As i said, you are nothing more than a parrot. You don't know your own history. Life must really be good being ignorant, naive and brainwashed.
]Roylion[[/B]/USER] i would like your opinion on Matthew 28:19
[/QUOTE]
You don't need affirmation from other anti-theists do you?
You have an abundance you've just quoted.
I have a great mate who is a pastor and studied Hebrew and Greek, and is an excellent teacher of the Bible.
He says The translations are accurate.
The Bible is God's words for all of us.
I appreciate your pov, but having read those alternative theories, they are just that- theories.
You really are insecure, i want Roy's opinion on historical stuff, he is not anti-theist, he is agnostic, i am not an atheist either, as i said a million times i am not against Christianity, i am against your types.
But anyway as i said nothing will change your mind, the church admits they changed the verse but you are adamant that its a conspiracy. The verses didnt exist in the original canon. The actual manuscript written on papyrus was lost, this verse was invented. There is no earlier surviving Greek text of Matthew than post-325 AD at this verse All authorities admit it, but you wont.
Jesus, however, cannot have given His disciples this Trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection; for the New Testament knows only one baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15), which still occurs even in the second and third centuries, while the Trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19.
It's not my pov, it's an accepted POV from Christian authorities and scholars. this explains why it contradicts everything Jesus said elsewhere. The Bible is majority made up and copied from other sources. I have pasted ample evidence from Buddha and Conficious. Your faith is based on tampered documents! Argue against what i said, don't say 'but i have faith'. The authorities responsible for the Bible are also arguing aganist you.
Your Bible also accepts it, read the footnotes, as i quoted other versions of the Bible too above.
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Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Okay, you have made your points again.
I wonder if there is anything we agree on.
Port. Geelong
Nadal. Federer
Anyway, we have probably done this to death. Maybe we can agree to disagree.
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The point i made wasn't my point, the church admits to tampering the verse, which explains why the 'great commission' goes against everything Jesus said in the rest of the Gospels. You won't even believe Christian sources, let alone mine. Please try to be objective in your views. Eusebius pre-325 AD seventeen times fully quoted this passage, and every time it did not have the trinitarian baptismal formula. However, his post-325 AD / Nicea quotes all contained the trinitarian formula. There is clear evidence of tampering, please read up more on this, this isn't an opinion
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He keeps reiterating his points because you refuse to acknowledge and respond to them. Anyone who has the truth wouldn't run from questions like you do.
What are you scared of?
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Yeah, let's export our superior Christianity and democracy to those lesser people groups...what could go wrong?Hey, I've got a group for you!
Andaman Islands' isolated tribes' independence may be in danger
If the Sentinelese are "pacified" following encounters with outsiders, they may suffer the same fate as other tribes in the Andaman Islands.
This lot haven't heard the word of god, and I don't think it'll happen any time soon; it's against international law to approach them. There's also the kind of shitty reality that they'd probably shoot you full of arrows on sight, so there's that too.
Maybe it's a worldwide conspiracy to keep putting the end of days off in perpetuity. After all, if Jesus can't return until everyone's been given the option to join the Jesus club, perhaps there's a group of religious people who'd prefer the world not ending. Maybe a group of people who like their life here. A group who have power, money, luxury; all the best this world can give you.
Oh, wait.
View attachment 1026519
Maybe I should take it to the conspiracies board, see how many takers I can get.
If it's in the Bible (the KJV or any modern version) it must be true. It doesn't matter if the older versions were completely different. Not very smart. Clearly been brainwashed to believe what's written there is the objective truth. You wonder why fake news exist even today? nothing has changed for 2000 years.
This is a cult.
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As it has always been
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