Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[samoodan]

I'll have a read when I get done with an assignment, but in the meantime do they provide a basis for why intepretation that directly contradicts the text itself is a satisfactory reading of the text?

I mean, I get that - from an academic standpoint - texts beyond a certain age and cultural context need to have certain conceptual understandings attached - one does not read Spenser's The Faerie Queene without leaning into the allegorical or the symbolic - but from a theological perspective intepretation is a fraught task. You're either conforming to the word or its intention, or you're contradicting the text in its direct meaning.

That, to me, suggests either aspects of the text that are unpalatable to a modern audience - and I don't think you'd disagree with this characterization - or that the bible itself is near meaningless without intepretation in a modern context.

That's a good one. I'd agree that from a theological perspective intepretation is tricky. It encourages doubt.

But what do you do when you come across lines like the psalm TP came up with the other day “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”

The literal reading is clearly awful. Even interpreting it as some kind of “colourful” description of revenge doesn’t help to much either. Base emotion.

So my modern take is to see it in context – written by a group of people who exiled, enslaved and furious. That doesn’t mean it is meaningless and I am glad it is not censored. An ancient story from my culture.

There are also heaps of brilliant psalms that counter that one.

 

[Evolved1]

That's a good one. I'd agree that from a theological perspective intepretation is tricky. It encourages doubt.

But what do you do when you come across lines like the psalm TP came up with the other day “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”

The literal reading is clearly awful. Even interpreting it as some kind of “colourful” description of revenge doesn’t help to much either. Base emotion.

So my modern take is to see it in context – written by a group of people who exiled, enslaved and furious. That doesn’t mean it is meaningless and I am glad it is not censored. An ancient story from my culture.

There are also heaps of brilliant psalms that counter that one.

Would you care to elaborate on your claim that the ancient Hebrews are your culture.

 

[samoodan]

Would you care to elaborate on your claim that the ancient Hebrews are your culture.

I'm irish. My crowd took it on maybe 1000 years ago. Who knows? It's a fair point, but I'm still claiming it.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Reading the Bible literally is fine .. it’s reading it as a literalist is when you get into real trouble .

Literal meaning is what is intended by the author eg Raining cats and dogs ... very heavy rain .

A literalist... raining cats and dogs ... cats and dogs were falling from the sky. And Someone like TP would want to know why an evil God would send cats and dogs to such a horrible death if God was such a loving God etc etc . You get the picture.


The Christian Church was started by Jesus not by the Bible . The church predates the Bible by 300 hundred years.
I’ll leave you with that .. do some research and enjoy.

Prove he existed, this Jesus guy, the letter J does not exist in Aramaic nor in ancient Hebrew.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I am also "victim" of organised religion. But I don't see it the same way. For example I am involved in a food for the poor charity. On any given night we feed 90 or so people (sometimes more). Feeding the poor is consistent with Jesus teaching (looking after each other). It is not specifically a religious charity, but it is enabled by the church. The church provides the administration for us to get organised to provide the service. This structure is repeated all over the world.

I'm not saying that Christians are the only people who do it. But I wouldn't rely on the government.

With Muslims it’s always the charity, christians, it’s a close second after threatening eternal hellfire, Jews only bring it up after commenting on circumcising young males.
Charity isn’t beholden to cults mate!
We all do it, well, good people do, without the reward and shite!

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[Boston tiger]

View attachment 1084551

And here we have the atheist literalist. I rekon something and Baltimore Jack goes and proves it for me. You are a diamond.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

And here we have the atheist literalist. I rekon something and Baltimore Jack goes and proves it for me. You are a diamond.

Can you give me a list of the Literal stuff in the bible
and
A list of the non Literal stuff
then
Tell me how you know which is which
then
Tell me how you came to those conclusions

I bet you can't

Start with this one
Was Noah 600 years old?
Literal or Non-literal?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Anyway the JC story just a ripoff of Prometheus who descended from heaven to save mankind. Left to be crucified by being hung on the mountain with eagle/vulture to peck at this level for eternity. Eventually taken down generations later (arisen). Now that’s sacrifice ...compared to JC...”ouch get me down, that hurts”... one day sacrifice.

 

[Gethelred]

Anyway the JC story just a ripoff of Prometheus who descended from heaven to save mankind. Left to be crucified by being hung on the mountain with eagle/vulture to peck at this level for eternity. Eventually taken down generations later (arisen). Now that’s sacrifice ...compared to JC...”ouch get me down, that hurts”... one day sacrifice.

I was actually thinking of the Lucifer story being a ripoff of Prometheus, with the apple in Eden being the code for fire.

It's certainly a potent symbolism to subvert a pre-existing religion with.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I was actually thinking of the Lucifer story being a ripoff of Prometheus, with the apple in Eden being the code for fire.

It's certainly a potent symbolism to subvert a pre-existing religion with.

Yeah probably parts of that Lucifer story from that but Prometheus sacrificed himself by deceiving Zeus for the good of the people he created.

 

[Gethelred]

Yeah probably parts of that Lucifer story from that but Prometheus sacrificed himself by deceiving Zeus for the good of the people he created.

Exactly.

The only difference between Lucifer in Paradise Lost and Prometheus in Greek mythology is intent.

There is no reason why one could not create a cult of Lucifer based on christian teachings, about how he freed us from the rigid amorality of Eden into a free existence in which we have choice. Only due to Lucifer do we have freedom from the viccitudes of God; only from Him does enjoyment or pleasure come! Duty and obedience are for suckers, those too weak to know the real path of the one who freed us: debauchery! Defilement!

Search your head and your feelings, and live your life according to the One who freed us all!

 

[Boston tiger]

Can you give me a list of the Literal stuff in the bible
and
A list of the non Literal stuff
then
Tell me how you know which is which
then
Tell me how you came to those conclusions

I bet you can't

Start with this one
Was Noah 600 years old?
Literal or Non-literal?

Let’s ask the Church . But it looks as if you can please yourself on this one as the age of Noah doesn’t really matter.

“The Church has no teaching regarding whether these ages are to be taken literally or not. The Church will say that whatever Scripture says is inerrant but must be understood in terms of the conventions of literature that were in use at the time.

It is known that, in many ancient cultures, fantastically long lives were assigned to famous forebears. This could be an indication that the ages are to be taken as symbolic of the greatness and venerability of the individuals.

However, this is not something the Church has taught. God can keep people alive as long as he wants. If he wants someone to live to be 900 years old, then that person can do so.”

 

[Gethelred]

Let’s ask the Church . But it looks as if you can please yourself on this one as the age of Noah doesn’t really matter.

“The Church has no teaching regarding whether these ages are to be taken literally or not. The Church will say that whatever Scripture says is inerrant but must be understood in terms of the conventions of literature that were in use at the time.

It is known that, in many ancient cultures, fantastically long lives were assigned to famous forebears. This could be an indication that the ages are to be taken as symbolic of the greatness and venerability of the individuals.

However, this is not something the Church has taught. God can keep people alive as long as he wants. If he wants someone to live to be 900 years old, then that person can do so.”

Have two bob each way (enacademic.com)

 

[Boston tiger]

Have two bob each way (enacademic.com)

I know it’s important you

 

[Gethelred]

I know it’s important you

"We don't believe it's true, but the book says it happened and God could do it," is an agnostic take on the question asked.

 

[Boston tiger]

"We don't believe it's true, but the book says it happened and God could do it," is an agnostic take on the question asked.

It is what it is . Many ancient civilisations give long lives to important people. Does believing Noah lived a normal life span or lived 600 years is neither here nor there to the Catholic Church.

 

[Gethelred]

It is what it is . Many ancient civilisations give long lives to important people. Does believing Noah lived a normal life span or lived 600 years is neither here nor there to the Catholic Church.

That's nice. We're not talking about many ancient civilisations; we're talking about yours, and what the bible says happened.

Believing Noah or Moses lived beyond the span of normal people is kind of intrinsic to your faith, considering it's obsession with death and the life afterwards.

 

[samoodan]

Believing Noah or Moses lived beyond the span of normal people is kind of intrinsic to your faith, considering it's obsession with death and the life afterwards.

it really isn't. Lightweight atheists focussing on the literal bible. I'd be getting on the current beliefs if I were you. Ever heard of transubstantiation?

 

[Total Power]

However, this is not something the Church has taught. God can keep people alive as long as he wants. If he wants someone to live to be 900 years old, then that person can do so.”

He stopped doing that since records began for the past 1,000 years. Maybe another 'failed plan'? Funnily enough. No one is worth enough anymore! Only those who r*ped, killed and murdered, that even in the dark ages.

 

[Boston tiger]

That's nice. We're not talking about many ancient civilisations; we're talking about yours, and what the bible says happened.

Believing Noah or Moses lived beyond the span of normal people is kind of intrinsic to your faith, considering it's obsession with death and the life afterwards.

Yes you are taking a literalist view of the Bible. We have established that. You are a fundamentalist I’m not . Simple

 

[Boston tiger]

Is it still raining cats and dogs in Sydney ?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

it really isn't. Lightweight atheists focussing on the literal bible. I'd be getting on the current beliefs if I were you. Ever heard of transubstantiation?

Now about that list of Literal and Non Literal stuff in the bible

You put it together yet?

 

[Total Power]

Yes you are taking a literalist view of the Bible. We have established that. You are a fundamentalist I’m not . Simple

Coming from a catholic. All metaphorical except the promised heaven, salvation in just belief, original sin, dead man walking, divinity of christ, virgin birth.....you get the drift. Everything else is 'methaphorical', specially the illogical and horrendous verses like rape, infanticide etc

. Btw, what you make of this? are 3/4th of your hispanic heathens braindead? or you are?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

So far we have
600 year old man: Could be Literal but could be Non Literal
Talking Snake: Clearly Non Literal but there are no sources to support this

How about these
Penguins on the Ark?
If the Flood covered the world why is there no record of it in the oldest civilization in China?
The Virgin Birth
The resurrection
Turning Water in to Wine

Don't go away, I'll be back