Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Evolved1]

That it is good for us to pray for healing for those who are sick. Please show me where the use of medicine is forbidden here.

Obviously medicine isn't forbidden in that passage. If the words worked exactly as written, why would there be a need for believers to use medicine?

Medicine is not a belief system. It is an object, like sport or art, given to us to use.

The theory of evolution isn't a belief system either. It's both fact and scientific theory, and is foundational to many forms of scientific knowledge including disparate fields of geology and psychology.

Yes, I agree that medicine has been given to us, though that has been through continual scientific development based on the work of humankind rather than religious texts, priests, prayer, or direct knowledge from a deity.

How do you verify any historical document?

That's a question Roylion could answer far more accurately than me.

I'm more interested in the supernatural claims than people and places mentioned in the bible. Should the miraculous claims be accepted just because some of the people and places in the book can be corroborated through unbiased sources?

 

[The Speaker]

Obviously medicine isn't forbidden in that passage. If the words worked exactly as written, why would there be a need for believers to use medicine?

You continue to present them as though they are opposites. They are not. Take the medicine, pray that it works.

The theory of evolution isn't a belief system either. It's both fact and scientific theory, and is foundational to many forms of scientific knowledge including disparate fields of geology and psychology.

So was alchemy.

Yes, I agree that medicine has been given to us, though that has been through continual scientific development based on the work of humankind rather than religious texts, priests, prayer, or direct knowledge from a deity.

As mentioned above, false dichotomy. God gives us knowledge and reason.

That's a question Roylion could answer far more accurately than me.

I'm more interested in the supernatural claims than people and places mentioned in the bible. Should the miraculous claims be accepted just because some of the people and places in the book can be corroborated through unbiased sources?

Do you believe there is any miracle listed in the Bible that, if on balance found to likely be true, would lead us to reasonably conclude that the rest must have happened as well?

 

[The Speaker]

My skill at translating ancient Hebrew into modern English doesn't extend beyond using Strong's concordance. I'll reiterate the point that I'm of the opinion that ancient Jews understood their own book within its cultural context greater than the vast majority of modern day Christian preachers and Western believers.

Whether extra-biblical sources and religious traditions hold relevance to your faith or not is a debate I have no desire to enter. If Sola Scriptura is your position, let me know and I'll move forward with the discussion from that angle.

The first Christians were all Jews. Modern Judaism does not have a monopoly over Scriptures, and the text is all that matters. Unless you can show from the text that it should actually be interpreted as miscarriage, even though the word in question is not used in that way elsewhere and there is no reason from the context of the passage itself to think that it is meant that way, there is nothing more to add.

 

[Evolved1]

You continue to present them as though they are opposites. They are not. Take the medicine, pray that it works.

They are opposites. Medicine is atheistic wisdom while prayer from elders of the church and anointing with oil is god's wisdom. There's no basis in the scriptures for taking atheistic medicine when biblical instructions for healing are revealed in the new testament.

If your faith requires atheistic medicine as a supplement, your faith isn't strong. Does faith move mountains or not?

So was alchemy.

Alchemy was an early attempt at science that is no less true than the miraculous biblical stories if you require objective evidence as a basis for belief.

Are you claiming that alchemy and the theory of evolution have equal scientific evidence to back them?

As mentioned above, false dichotomy. God gives us knowledge and reason.

I disagree on the basis of proverbs 14:12. You've been deceived into accepting atheistic medicine when god's healing instructions are shown in his word.

Do you believe there is any miracle listed in the Bible that, if on balance found to likely be true, would lead us to reasonably conclude that the rest must have happened as well?

No. In the book of Exodus, Pharoah's magicians were able to perform counterfeit miracles. Miracles aren't evidence of god, even by god's standards.

 

[Vdubs]

Where does it say that?

All throughout the Bible. There are many forms of false gods, including apparent virtuous things like fitness, nature, etc...

Psalm 135:4-9 .....the lord is greater than all gods....
1 John 5:21 ...keep away from anything that replaces God's place in your hearts
1 John 4:1 ...not to believe every spirit, test that they are from God, ...false prophets...
1 Peter 2:11 ...abstain from sinful desires...
Ezekiel 23:49 ...bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry
Revelation 21:27 ..practices shameful idolatry
Matthew 7:21-23 ...false declaration of worship while doing works of lawlessness
I Corinthians 7:31 ....not to become attached to the things of this world...
1 John 2:16-17 ...lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes...
Psalm 97:7 ...worshippers of images, ...worthless idols...
Philippians 3:19 ....minds set on earthly things
Psalm 4:2 ....love delusions and seek false gods...
Deuteronomy 32:16-17 ....strange gods, ...abominations,
Deuteronomy 6:15..... the Lord is a jealous god
Exodus 34:14...shalt worship no other god...the Lord is a jealous God
Romans 1:25. ...worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator
Matthew 6:24 ....not be slaves of 2 masters
Exodus 23:13. ..do not invoke the name of other gods
Exodus 20:3-4. ...no other gods, ...no graven images
Psalm 40:3-5. Blessed is the one.... who does not turn aside to false gods

Worth reading them in detail and in context.

 

[Vdubs]

They are opposites. Medicine is atheistic wisdom while prayer from elders of the church and anointing with oil is god's wisdom. There's no basis in the scriptures for taking atheistic medicine when biblical instructions for healing are revealed in the new testament.

If your faith requires atheistic medicine as a supplement, your faith isn't strong. Does faith move mountains or not?
Alchemy was an early attempt at science that is no less true than the miraculous biblical stories if you require objective evidence as a basis for belief.

Are you claiming that alchemy and the theory of evolution have equal scientific evidence to back them?

I disagree on the basis of proverbs 14:12. You've been deceived into accepting atheistic medicine when god's healing instructions are shown in his word.

No. In the book of Exodus, Pharoah's magicians were able to perform counterfeit miracles. Miracles aren't evidence of god, even by god's standards.

Why do you quote so literally when you know better?
Medicine is a gift from God, as is technology and industry.
Medicine and prayer are not mutually exclusive. It is naive to rely only on prayer in many medical situations, but it is certainly justifiable to seek the appropriate treatment and to pray singly, or corporately that it will work.

 

[Evolved1]

The first Christians were all Jews. Modern Judaism does not have a monopoly over Scriptures, and the text is all that matters. Unless you can show from the text that it should actually be interpreted as miscarriage, even though the word in question is not used in that way elsewhere and there is no reason from the context of the passage itself to think that it is meant that way, there is nothing more to add.

I'm sure I can build a very strong case that a baby born prematurely as a result of injury to the mother 3,000+ years ago would be unlikely to survive if that's what you want. I see that as invoking the common sense rule that overrides any selective use of bible lexicons.

If you want to go down the semantics route, do you have evidence that ancient believing Jews interpreted that passage as you do?

An alternative discussion that could be more interesting starts with....using the bible, can you make a case that god values a zygote equally as much as a newborn baby?

Take your pick.

 

[Evolved1]

Why do you quote so literally when you know better?
Medicine is a gift from God, as is technology and industry.
Medicine and prayer are not mutually exclusive. It is naive to rely only on prayer in many medical situations, but it is certainly justifiable to seek the appropriate treatment and to pray singly, or corporately that it will work.

Of course I know better; I'm an atheist.

If the new testament instructions about healing aren't to be taken literally, why should any of it be taken literally? Why should the instructions that lead to an afterlife be trusted?

It's naive to rely on prayer because prayer doesn't work. It's naive to rely on faith because faith doesn't work. It's naive to rely on god because god isn't real.

 

[chelseacarlton]

All throughout the Bible. There are many forms of false gods, including apparent virtuous things like fitness, nature, etc...

Psalm 135:4-9 .....the lord is greater than all gods....
1 John 5:21 ...keep away from anything that replaces God's place in your hearts
1 John 4:1 ...not to believe every spirit, test that they are from God, ...false prophets...
1 Peter 2:11 ...abstain from sinful desires...
Ezekiel 23:49 ...bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry
Revelation 21:27 ..practices shameful idolatry
Matthew 7:21-23 ...false declaration of worship while doing works of lawlessness
I Corinthians 7:31 ....not to become attached to the things of this world...
1 John 2:16-17 ...lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes...
Psalm 97:7 ...worshippers of images, ...worthless idols...
Philippians 3:19 ....minds set on earthly things
Psalm 4:2 ....love delusions and seek false gods...
Deuteronomy 32:16-17 ....strange gods, ...abominations,
Deuteronomy 6:15..... the Lord is a jealous god
Exodus 34:14...shalt worship no other god...the Lord is a jealous God
Romans 1:25. ...worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator
Matthew 6:24 ....not be slaves of 2 masters
Exodus 23:13. ..do not invoke the name of other gods
Exodus 20:3-4. ...no other gods, ...no graven images
Psalm 40:3-5. Blessed is the one.... who does not turn aside to false gods

Worth reading them in detail and in context.

Nice try.
In the 1st commandment, where does it say “false”?

 

[Boston tiger]

Of course I know better; I'm an atheist.

If the new testament instructions about healing aren't to be taken literally, why should any of it be taken literally? Why should the instructions that lead to an afterlife be trusted?

It's naive to rely on prayer because prayer doesn't work. It's naive to rely on faith because faith doesn't work. It's naive to rely on god because god isn't real.

1 Timothy 5:23
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

 

[Boston tiger]

Of course I know better; I'm an atheist.

If the new testament instructions about healing aren't to be taken literally, why should any of it be taken literally? Why should the instructions that lead to an afterlife be trusted?

It's naive to rely on prayer because prayer doesn't work. It's naive to rely on faith because faith doesn't work. It's naive to rely on god because god isn't real.

Rely on God for what ? Happiness ,Joy ,Dignity, Well Being . It’s been working for 2000 years. You are the logical guy or do you need more time ?

 

[Vdubs]

Of course I know better; I'm an atheist.

If the new testament instructions about healing aren't to be taken literally, why should any of it be taken literally? Why should the instructions that lead to an afterlife be trusted?

It's naive to rely on prayer because prayer doesn't work. It's naive to rely on faith because faith doesn't work. It's naive to rely on god because god isn't real.

The NT helps us appreciate the OT. We see God at work more clearly through the NT. Jesus helps us learn about the power of God.
The whole Bible is valuable for instruction.
You say God isn't real, but if your life revolves around you and yours, and all your worldly things, we all know that everything here is brief and perishes.
If you live a God-focussed life, that is not the case, plus it makes your relationships here and now better quality.
No-brainer really.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Rely on God for what ? Happiness ,Joy ,Dignity, Well Being . It’s been working for 2000 years. You are the logical guy or do you need more time ?

Apparently "his return" does

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Implicit in the word "other"

Who decided that?

 

[Vdubs]

Who decided that?

Did you read all those verses above?
Other gods, false gods, idolatry....it's not rocket science. God the Creator of all is a jealous God as it says frequently. Why fight or question that? We have been warned.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Did you read all those verses above?
Other gods, false gods, idolatry....it's not rocket science. God the Creator of all is a jealous God as it says frequently. Why fight or question that? We have been warned.

So you don't have an answer other than your usual sales pitch?

 

[chelseacarlton]

The NT helps us appreciate the OT. We see God at work more clearly through the NT. Jesus helps us learn about the power of God.
The whole Bible is valuable for instruction.
You say God isn't real, but if your life revolves around you and yours, and all your worldly things, we all know that everything here is brief and perishes.
If you live a God-focussed life, that is not the case, plus it makes your relationships here and now better quality.
No-brainer really.

So god kinda changed his mind from being a narcissistic psychopath to become a friendly, kind and loving god?

 

[The Speaker]

They are opposites. Medicine is atheistic wisdom while prayer from elders of the church and anointing with oil is god's wisdom. There's no basis in the scriptures for taking atheistic medicine when biblical instructions for healing are revealed in the new testament.

If your faith requires atheistic medicine as a supplement, your faith isn't strong. Does faith move mountains or not?

Absolute garbage. Medicine is not 'atheistic'. You have not provided a single shred of evidence that the Bible forbids the use of medicine, and you have not provided anything from the Bible that would contradict God's sovereign choice to give us medicine. The strength of our faith is not responsible for whether we are healed.

Alchemy was an early attempt at science that is no less true than the miraculous biblical stories if you require objective evidence as a basis for belief.

Are you claiming that alchemy and the theory of evolution have equal scientific evidence to back them?

Alchemy was widely believed to be factual, and despite its falsehood much of what it produced was useful in the advancement of the sciences. It is entirely possible that evolution can do likewise.

I disagree on the basis of proverbs 14:12. You've been deceived into accepting atheistic medicine when god's healing instructions are shown in his word.

I almost laughed aloud at this. Medicine is not the kind of thinking that will lead to destruction.

No. In the book of Exodus, Pharoah's magicians were able to perform counterfeit miracles. Miracles aren't evidence of god, even by god's standards.

That's interesting, because logically I think there is one that would.

 

[The Speaker]

I'm sure I can build a very strong case that a baby born prematurely as a result of injury to the mother 3,000+ years ago would be unlikely to survive if that's what you want. I see that as invoking the common sense rule that overrides any selective use of bible lexicons.

Ah, so because you, a non time-travelling individual living 3000+ years after the fact, think that it is so, that means that we should change our interpretation of the passage. Good one.

If you want to go down the semantics route, do you have evidence that ancient believing Jews interpreted that passage as you do?

My evidence is that it is what the text says.

An alternative discussion that could be more interesting starts with....using the bible, can you make a case that god values a zygote equally as much as a newborn baby?

Take your pick.

That was the point I was making to start with, before you decided to take us down the road of a passage that doesn't even talk about what you thought it did. Every life is equally valuable in his eyes, from conception to death, because all humans are made in his image. They don't suddenly gain his image at a certain number of weeks or months after conception.

 

[chelseacarlton]

....because all humans are made in his image. They don't suddenly gain his image at a certain number of weeks or months after conception.

Care to demonstrate that that claim?

 

[Evolved1]

Absolute garbage. Medicine is not 'atheistic'. You have not provided a single shred of evidence that the Bible forbids the use of medicine, and you have not provided anything from the Bible that would contradict God's sovereign choice to give us medicine. The strength of our faith is not responsible for whether we are healed.

Of course it is. Given that medicine and science do not require the use of deities to explain natural phenomena or miracles to heal people, they're inherently godless/atheistic. Christians pick which parts of science to take issue with only when they see them contradicting your beliefs.

You've not provided any evidence from the bible to support your view that god gave us medicine, and I've shown that god gave instructions in the new testament that should be easy for believers to replicate today if the bible is true. If those methods worked as described, there wouldn't be any need for believers to use medicine.

Alchemy was widely believed to be factual, and despite its falsehood much of what it produced was useful in the advancement of the sciences. It is entirely possible that evolution can do likewise.

Yes, during the same period of time that miracles and gods were widely believed to be factual. Thankfully, our knowledge base has advanced far beyond religion and alchemy.

Given that there's no scientific theory of creationism, it's unlikely that theism will be offering anything of worth to challenge the theory of evolution soon. If a better explanation for the facts of evolution is found, it will be found using the scientific method.

I almost laughed aloud at this. Medicine is not the kind of thinking that will lead to destruction.

I'll concede on that one.

That's interesting, because logically I think there is one that would.

Well, don't keep us waiting. I presume you mean the alleged resurrection.

 

[Evolved1]

Ah, so because you, a non time-travelling individual living 3000+ years after the fact, think that it is so, that means that we should change our interpretation of the passage. Good one.

You only need look back 100-150 years to see the low survival rate of premature babies. It's the common sense interpretation. You're trying to find a self-serving interpretation based on survival rates of premature babies in 2020 Western society when it simply isn't relevant to an ancient Middle Eastern society with their primitive medicine.

My evidence is that it is what the text says.

Do you have any formal education and qualifications in interpreting ancient Hebrew?

That was the point I was making to start with, before you decided to take us down the road of a passage that doesn't even talk about what you thought it did. Every life is equally valuable in his eyes, from conception to death, because all humans are made in his image. They don't suddenly gain his image at a certain number of weeks or months after conception.

I'm happy to agree to disagree about Exodus 21 rather than go round and round in circles.

You've not provided any bible evidence to support the claim that god views all humans equally from conception to death.

 

[The Speaker]

Of course it is. Given that medicine and science do not require the use of deities to explain natural phenomena or miracles to heal people, they're inherently godless/atheistic. Christians pick which parts of science to take issue with only when they see them contradicting your beliefs.

You've not provided any evidence from the bible to support your view that god gave us medicine, and I've shown that god gave instructions in the new testament that should be easy for believers to replicate today if the bible is true. If those methods worked as described, there wouldn't be any need for believers to use medicine.

Buh bow. As mentioned above, which you have acknowledged was right to say, you are again presenting a false dichotomy. God has given us medicine because everything we have comes from him. He has given us logic, he has given us reason, he has given us the means to heal the sick and feed the hungry.

When Jesus dealt with the hunger of the 5000, did he do it by praying, or by giving them food? As with this medicine example, he did both. He prayed to heaven a prayer of thanksgiving, and then he gave out food. This is the practical way in which we see how our free will and God's total sovereignty work with one another.

Yes, during the same period of time that miracles and gods were widely believed to be factual. Thankfully, our knowledge base has advanced far beyond religion and alchemy.

Given that there's no scientific theory of creationism, it's unlikely that theism will be offering anything of worth to challenge the theory of evolution soon. If a better explanation for the facts of evolution is found, it will be found using the scientific method.

Cool story, but also irrelevant to the point.

I'll concede on that one.

Which means that your dichotomy is indeed false.

Well, don't keep us waiting. I presume you mean the alleged resurrection.

Of course. It is the hinge of history. Regardless of whether you believe it happened, you can surely see that if it did happen, that is as good as gold for everything else.

 

[The Speaker]

You only need look back 100-150 years to see the low survival rate of premature babies. It's the common sense interpretation. You're trying to find a self-serving interpretation based on survival rates of premature babies in 2020 Western society when it simply isn't relevant to an ancient Middle Eastern society with their primitive medicine.

There is no interpreting needed. The passage is talking about premature live birth, and therefore says nothing about what happens to a baby if it should die afterwards, which may or may not have been impacted by being born prematurely. It's irrelevant to this law.

Do you have any formal education and qualifications in interpreting ancient Hebrew?

Enough to know what the passage says.

I'm happy to agree to disagree about Exodus 21 rather than go round and round in circles.

You were the one who brought it up.

You've not provided any bible evidence to support the claim that god views all humans equally from conception to death.

I have already mentioned that all humans are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27, 9:6). Given that we know from passages like Psalm 139:13-16 that God knows us before we are even conceived, and is the one who makes us who we are. Therefore, there is no possible distinction to be drawn in terms of value in God's eyes.

 

[Toump Ass]

Medicine is a gift from God, as is technology and industry.

Why is technology a "gift from god" and pussy, homosexuality and reproductive rights not.

And why did he give us technology but allow some tax-dodging campaigner like Steve Blowjobs to distribute it.

And wait so long to give it to us. I would have loved a playstation 4 when I was 12. All I had was atari 2600.

Sorry just saw you're not a christian maybe someone else can help me