Politics Aussie Fascists and (neo)Nazis

[CM86]

Well, yes. They are prominent threads.

The trap wasn't yours.
If you truly don't see the humour in that situation as it unfolded, then so be it. I shouldn't need to explain the joke, but it does touch upon a part of the problem. If you claim to value intellectual honesty, then one of the things you'll need to do is to ensure the environment is one capable of supporting disparate opinion without punitive measures being taken; or, if those measures become necessary, then apply them objectively and universally rather than arbitrarily.
I had a look at the list of moderators on at the same time I am, then I had a quick read of their contributions and actions. You should do the same, and then tell me what you see. Perhaps you'll understand why someone such as myself might decide it would be a good idea to become more circumspect, if I were interested in hanging around for long.


I've gazed into few mirrors, blurry or otherwise, from time to time.
A few of those folks I've seen in these sub-forums could be clones of one another as well. I don't expect you to tell me how you feel about being in the same foxhole as some of them, unless you truly are as forthright as you claim to be. Perhaps it's an subject someone in your position might decide to be a little more circumspect about.

Some of your phrasing is similar to mine, have you noticed?


A couple of reasons. The first being that I'd prefer to have those who might do me harm out in the open where I can see them, and secondly because you can often learn more about yourself from your enemies as much as you do your friends.

I agree with that last sentence, but I don't limit the application of that thought in only one direction. I could engage in a little reversal tactic here and ask you to substitute the word right for left and then replace your list of target groups with some different ones, but that would be as counterproductive as simply saying no, you are.

There are a few things I want to talk about here. The proliferation of memes in place of discourse, and the limitation or outright hijacking of language (to the extent that its becoming one of those forces I'm suggesting is responsible for the creation of the more militant extremists).
It's getting very late, but I'd like to come back to it. If I'm not dissuaded in the meantime.

The TLDR:

• Mods are too 'left wing'.
• The 'right' are silenced in these forums.
• freeze peach.
• It's the 'lefts' fault.
• I'm never able to provide actual examples, or make direct statements.
• Don't question me, or I won't engage.

Same old bullshit talking points, padded to hell with flowery language to make them seem more important.

 

[Gethelred]

The TLDR:

• Mods are too 'left wing'.
• The 'right' are silenced in these forums.
• freeze peach.
• It's the 'lefts' fault.
• I'm never able to provide actual examples, or make direct statements.
• Don't question me, or I won't engage.

Same old bullshit talking points, padded to hell with flowery language to make them seem more important.

Don't underestimate the joy of flowery language, given the level of dross that can be found here from time to time.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I had a look at the list of moderators on at the same time I am, then I had a quick read of their contributions and actions. You should do the same, and then tell me what you see. Perhaps you'll understand why someone such as myself might decide it would be a good idea to become more circumspect, if I were interested in hanging around for long.

Rubbish, you can't see moderators actions.

You are full of s**t.

 

[Episode IV]

Rubbish, you can't see moderators actions.

You are full of s**t.

Little pressed for time at the moment. Only one for now.

All I can suggest in this instance is that you do a little reading on how black holes are discovered and monitored. I can't teach you how to read and think holistically or critically, but I can point you in one direction where you might at least begin to understand the concept using an example with a practical application.

I see you have a black background to your name. Given your status, I'd also suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept of Noblesse Oblige. Although the term itself might have fallen into general disuse these days.
I don't see much evidence of it around here, and that's a real shame.

Or I could just sink down to your level and reply in kind.
Back in 1930's Germany, they gave people like you a brown shirt, an armband, and a mandate, and set them loose among the general populace.
While your political affiliation might be different, and your baton made of Styrofoam, your mindset seems more or less identical on first impression.

 

[CM86]

Don't underestimate the joy of flowery language, given the level of dross that can be found here from time to time.

I don't see the difference between the two.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't see the difference between the two.

If you don't enjoy the written word, forums are an awful buzzkill.

 

[CM86]

If you don't enjoy the written word, forums are an awful buzzkill.

I'd argue that flowery language is worse than dross.

The above post is just "antifacism is the real facism", and "Bigfooty mods are nazis".
But the way it's written lends more credence to the argument, that it doesn't deserve.

 

[FredLeDeux]

I'd argue that flowery language is worse than dross.

The above post is just "antifacism is the real facism", and "Bigfooty mods are nazis".
But the way it's written lends more credence to the argument, that it doesn't deserve.

Yes, it's just a w***ery of weasel words.

 

[Gough]

I'd argue that flowery language is worse than dross.

Cardus did it well but never try to read anything Colin Cowdrey wrote.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Or I could just sink down to your level and reply in kind.
Back in 1930's Germany, they gave people like you a brown shirt, an armband, and a mandate, and set them loose among the general populace.
While your political affiliation might be different, and your baton made of Styrofoam, your mindset seems more or less identical on first impression.

Literal nazis are always the first to accuse of others.

 

[Gethelred]

I'd argue that flowery language is worse than dross.

The above post is just "antifacism is the real facism", and "Bigfooty mods are nazis".
But the way it's written lends more credence to the argument, that it doesn't deserve.

Hmmm...

I'd argue that I can read a post that calls me a nazi and evaluate it as prose on one hand while wildly disagreeing with it on the other. I can chew bubblegum and walk at the same time if I concentrate hard enough.

The way something is written can lend more credence to an idea, but you can't polish a turd.

 

[Gethelred]

Little pressed for time at the moment. Only one for now.

All I can suggest in this instance is that you do a little reading on how black holes are discovered and monitored. I can't teach you how to read and think holistically or critically, but I can point you in one direction where you might at least begin to understand the concept using an example with a practical application.

I see you have a black background to your name. Given your status, I'd also suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept of Noblesse Oblige. Although the term itself might have fallen into general disuse these days.
I don't see much evidence of it around here, and that's a real shame.

Or I could just sink down to your level and reply in kind.
Back in 1930's Germany, they gave people like you a brown shirt, an armband, and a mandate, and set them loose among the general populace.
While your political affiliation might be different, and your baton made of Styrofoam, your mindset seems more or less identical on first impression.

Be careful not to jump the shark too quickly. Your eloquence is a welcome change to the usual cavalcade of those who share your opinions.

 

[CM86]

Hmmm...

I'd argue that I can read a post that calls me a nazi and evaluate it as prose on one hand while wildly disagreeing with it on the other. I can chew bubblegum and walk at the same time if I concentrate hard enough.

The way something is written can lend more credence to an idea, but you can't polish a turd.

Are we talking past each other? Or are you telling me that I need to work on my ability to evaluate text I disagree with?

 

[Gethelred]

Are we talking past each other? Or are you telling me that I need to work on my ability to evaluate text I disagree with?

Not really and kind of. I'm in a whimsical frame of mind at the moment, and I've been reading some fairly content heavy stuff on assessment and curriculum all week, so I could just be overreacting to a semi-decent ability to turn a phrase.

I don't disagree with you on the substance, but it really is quite refreshing to read someone who can order a thought as opposed to the vast majority - those still with us and those gone - who use bad arguments as bait.

 

[the_interloper]

Don't underestimate the joy of flowery language, given the level of dross that can be found here from time to time.

I'm pretty ordinary at flowery language I'd say.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm pretty ordinary at flowery language I'd say.

It's not so much flowery language as it is an entertaining turn of phrase. It used to be something a journalist could do, before they really got into the templates. Being able to describe things and get other people to see them, feel them; think less flowery and more a florid use of language, finding the most apt word from a vast collection of them.

I can still remember Peter Roebuck describing a game of footy or cricket, and how the words would come completely to life and I could almost see the game in front of me. It's a pity that the other stuff he did in life tainted that a bit, because he was a damn good writer.

 

[ferball]

I didn't actually say it was. I was commenting that nothing arises in a vacuum, in spite of several posters here asserting that it did, therefore leaving themselves with the only option they have available - to simply assume insanity or something, or that right wingers are a separate species whose actions have nothing to do with the "real" mankind.

Yes, I do believe that the social pressure from the opposite direction is having an effect on people being (or feeling) marginalised as a result of that pressure, and that's not a comment on whether they are right or wrong in their subsequent reaction.

The entire universe arose in a vacuum, so unless you're being incredibly philosophical about the illusory nature of reality then that bolded bit is factually wrong.

 

[Episode IV]

The entire universe arose in a vacuum, so unless you're being incredibly philosophical about the illusory nature of reality then that bolded bit is factually wrong.

Unless you subscribe to the hypothesis that in the instant something does arise, it is no longer a vacuum. Which is to say, something can arise from a vacuum. But not in it.

 

[ferball]

I'd argue that flowery language is worse than dross.

The above post is just "antifacism is the real facism", and "Bigfooty mods are nazis".
But the way it's written lends more credence to the argument, that it doesn't deserve.

Ol mate just took four and a half million words to say what you just said then.

They're not writing this stuff to lend credence to anything, just to break down people's cognitive processes and essentially bore them into submission. Thats what cults do.

Its like trying to read thru treacle.

 

[Episode IV]

It's not so much flowery language as it is an entertaining turn of phrase. It used to be something a journalist could do, before they really got into the templates. Being able to describe things and get other people to see them, feel them; think less flowery and more a florid use of language, finding the most apt word from a vast collection of them.

I can still remember Peter Roebuck describing a game of footy or cricket, and how the words would come completely to life and I could almost see the game in front of me. It's a pity that the other stuff he did in life tainted that a bit, because he was a damn good writer.

Memes are difficult to fight. In the current western social climate, the proliferation and acceptance of memes has become the norm, and the temptation to respond in kind can sometimes be overwhelming - not only as a natural reaction, but also because communication itself has become more difficult as the result of the shifting or sometimes near-total disregard of the foundations of language.
We resort to whatever means are at our disposal and prove themselves effective, to whatever extent is required, and memes and memetic language often present themselves as a solution.

Memes are concise, and simplistic. They have broad appeal to the majority. In a populous and culturally diverse world, where language (English, in particular) has become increasingly fragmented and simplified in order to accommodate a diversifying local and global population, they present themselves as an answer to the difficulties of fully effective communication.

They have limitations, though. As simplified versions or adaptations of language itself, they rarely conform entirely to the ideas being expressed, and often present distorted versions of what has actually been said. Furthermore, that broader appeal increasingly often leads to the distorted version becoming more ingrained in popular imagination than the original idea.

CM86 has a habit of asking for examples. I'll provide one. That dot-pointed post of his bears little resemblance to what he was responding to. Yet, because it is more comprehensible to the average reader, it has become a widely-accepted and accurate summary despite that.

Language is evolving, as it always has. Yet in the current social climate and given the current levels of communication, I can't help but feel a sense of loss.

Here's an interesting take from the Los Angeles Times from a while back:

Memetics:
The study of memes
Memetics sees ideas as a kind of virus, sometimes propagating in spite of truth and logic. Its maxim is: Beliefs that survive aren't necessarily true, rules that survive aren't necessarily fair and rituals that survive aren't necessarily necessary. Things that survive do so because they are good at surviving.
— Los Angeles Times, 20 Mar. 1999

Worthwhile to remember that natural selection and evolution are two separate concepts.

Can you hear the drums, Fernando?

 

[ferball]

Unless you subscribe to the hypothesis that in the instant something does arise, it is no longer a vacuum. Which is to say, something can arise from a vacuum. But not in it.

Yeah but that's not the accepted model of the early moments of the universe. The instant the vacuum arose it continued to arise increasing in size and energy buit it was still a vacuum and in parts it decayed and that is why we ended up with matter scattered thru it. Of course its alot more complex than that when you get into the details but stuff arises in a vacuum and that vacuum remains a vacuum. Its fundamental to existence.

So you can't rely on that thing you said/typed to explain the existence of nazis. Its meaningless.

 

[Episode IV]

Ol mate just took four and a half million words to say what you just said then.

They're not writing this stuff to lend credence to anything, just to break down people's cognitive processes and essentially bore them into submission. Thats what cults do.

Its like trying to read thru treacle.

Either that, or I just took considerably less than four and a half million words to not say anything of the sort.
I'm struggling to remember where I've given away my political leanings at all. Disparaging some elements or characteristics of the left does not automatically confirm a natural affiliation with the right. Other than to extremely myopic minds with poor comprehension skills.

I'd like you to quote anything I said which translates to those two lines - or any others you think have been accurately summarised by CM86.
What I said, how he translated it, and the relation between the two.

Here's a little hint - I didn't call anyone a Nazi, either.

 

[ferball]

Memes are difficult to fight. In the current western social climate, the proliferation and acceptance of memes has become the norm, and the temptation to respond in kind can sometimes be overwhelming - not only as a natural reaction, but also because communication itself has become more difficult as the result of the shifting or sometimes near-total disregard of the foundations of language.
We resort to whatever means are at our disposal and prove themselves effective, to whatever extent is required, and memes and memetic language often present themselves as a solution.

Memes are concise, and simplistic. They have broad appeal to the majority. In a populous and culturally diverse world, where language (English, in particular) has become increasingly fragmented and simplified in order to accommodate a diversifying local and global population, they present themselves as an answer to the difficulties of fully effective communication.

They have limitations, though. As simplified versions or adaptations of language itself, they rarely conform entirely to the ideas being expressed, and often present distorted versions of what has actually been said. Furthermore, that broader appeal increasingly often leads to the distorted version becoming more ingrained in popular imagination than the original idea.

CM86 has a habit of asking for examples. I'll provide one. That dot-pointed post of his bears little resemblance to what he was responding to. Yet, because it is more comprehensible to the average reader, it has become a widely-accepted and accurate summary despite that.

Language is evolving, as it always has. Yet in the current social climate and given the current levels of communication, I can't help but feel a sense of loss.

Here's an interesting take from the Los Angeles Times from a while back:

Memetics:
The study of memes
Memetics sees ideas as a kind of virus, sometimes propagating in spite of truth and logic. Its maxim is: Beliefs that survive aren't necessarily true, rules that survive aren't necessarily fair and rituals that survive aren't necessarily necessary. Things that survive do so because they are good at surviving.
— Los Angeles Times, 20 Mar. 1999

Worthwhile to remember that natural selection and evolution and two separate concepts.

Can you hear the drums, Fernando?

This writing is so much better than that crap about mods and nazis.

 

[ferball]

Either that, or I just took considerably less than four and a half million words to not say anything of the sort.
I'm struggling to remember where I've given away my political leanings at all. Disparaging some elements or characteristics of the left does not automatically confirm a natural affiliation with the right. Other than to extremely myopic minds with poor comprehension skills.

Did I suggest you had political leanings.

I'd like you to quote anything I said which translates to those two lines - or any others you think have been accurately summarised by CM86.
What I said, how he translated it, and the relation between the two.

Here's a little hint - I didn't call anyone a Nazi, either.

No you tried to liken the exercise of moderators authority on this board to brownshirts bashing their political rivals. So you know ... tough s**t.

I'm not quoting you. It was annoying enough to read the first time. Especially when that other thing you said (about memes) was so much more pleasant to read.

 

[Episode IV]

Did I suggest you had political leanings.


No you tried to liken the exercise of moderators authority on this board to brownshirts bashing their political rivals. So you know ... tough s**t.

I'm not quoting you. It was annoying enough to read the first time. Especially when that other thing you said (about memes) was so much more pleasant to read.

I'd prefer that if you intend to refute anything I've said, then quote me in order to do it - not just agree with someone else who didn't even get it right in the first place.

And no, again, that isn't right. I'm not bothering with it any more, I'm getting bogged down in small things.

What makes that interesting to me, is where you consider the platform of the left, or the philosophy within which the left is operating.
I liked the tough s**t bit. Marvellous. Like, what are your values, man?