Analysis Aussie Rules Explained - Swans Board Style

[robbieando]

What is considered to be the greatest single season team in AFL history?

Essendon in 2000 where they lost only one game all season or Geelong 2007 where they won the Grand Final by 117 points

What is considered to be the great Swans team ever?

The 1933 Premiership Team, the teams of 2005 and 2012 will in time on reflection take its place.

How many Swans fans remain in Melbourne from before the move?

About 12,000 members and many non-members that could push that figure into the 30,000's

 

[robbieando]

Thanks for the suggestion. I am ordering it now.

But more importantly, the title of the book reminded me of a question I wanted to ask! You share a fight song with the University of Notre Dame here in America (it just so happens I had an older brother who attended). It is a fairly famous fight song here in America. Does anyone know the history behind the adoption of that song by the Swans? What are the words to your fight song? Do most fans know the words?

We approached Notre Dame via letter for permission in the 70's to use it as our club song and they gave permission without any fuss or request for any money. The letters became public a few years back.

 

[Klim]

What is considered to be the greatest single season team in AFL history?

What is considered to be the great Swans team ever?

05 and 12 Swans.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

About 12,000 members and many non-members that could push that figure into the 30,000's

Far and away the largest Victorian membership of any non-Victorian club, I might add.

None of the other "interstate" clubs (as Victorian supporters of our national code are quaintly known to describe them) are even close.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Most of these are more personal opinion than based on fact or history but make of it what you will.
Adelaide- Their home fans are apparently pretty feral and visiting fans to their ground despise them because of it.
Brisbane- No real hatred, some didn't like the success they had in the early 00's for similar reasons as we are disliked by Melbourne clubs (being seen as reliant on AFL funds despite many of their clubs receiving more assistance)
Carlton- Some hatred back to the 'Bloodbath' Grand Final from the older members, some hatred due to their salary cap cheating in the 90's but mostly now a laughing stock for being terrible, year in year out.
Collingwood- Supporters are scum, President is scum. Personal experience saw us forced to sit next to their cheers squad in '98. We were sworn at and spat at for the whole game and security did nothing, but the filth went to complain about a 90 year old swans supporter ringing a bell after each goal was scored and he got booted out the ground. Never saw him attend a game after that. Scum.
Essendon- Performance enhancing drug controversy has seen greater vitriol slung their way. Arrogant club.
Fremantle- No real vitriol here either. One of the newer teams to the league and haven't achieved anything.
Geelong- High performing in recent decade and with some success it can breed contempt. Mostly hate them because we are made to play them at their rubbish stadium that can't hold their own supporters let alone allow any of us access.
Gold Coast- Nothing club....yet.
GWS- Nothing club.....yet. Trying to be a rival when the likelihood is they will be based out of Canberra soon enough.
Hawthorn- High performing of late, many players are inclined to play the man and not the ball and are perceived to get a great run with umpiring and match review panel (Discipline tribunal). Have joined with Collingwood to personally attack our club in recent years and their supporters have a tendency to be very arrogant as they march around with their members scarves that reveal they have only jumped on the bandwagon in the lat 2 or three years.
Melbourne- No real hatred here either. Like Carlton, seen as perennial losers.
North Melbourne- Beat us in 96 for the flag. Reliant on the AFL to keep them afloat and sell of their games to Tasmania which we end up getting lumped with so Melbourne based Swans fans lose another game from their membership.
Port Adelaide - Not a huge reason to hate them. They are from Adelaide which is a bit backwards so that's a good enough reason not to like them though.
Richmond - Large supporter base that hasn't tasted success in recent times. Despite this every year, their moronic supporters will tell you how good they are and how they will smash everyone, only to be calling for sackings, spitting on their coach, dumping piles of chicken manure at their training ground gates and microwaving their membership cards by three quarters of the way through the season.
St Kilda - Traditional neighbourhood rivals in the days of South Melbourne. Were issues with them poaching players for memory at some stage too. Again, lack success so not really a great deal of hatred in their direction.
Western Bulldogs- In recent years their president has also jumped on the "We hate Sydney" bandwagon. Another club like North Melbourne that have tried to reinvent themselves 20 times over and rely on the AFL to get them by.
West Coast Eagles- Epic rivalry in the mid 00's. Supporters can be quite arrogant, beat us for the '06 flag by 1 point and it was later claimed that half the club were using recreational drugs during that period. (We want our rightful flag given to us!)

Hope this helps!

This is GOLD!

I might just add, DarkFlyer, some of us have some pretty decent reasons for not minding, for respecting, or for even quite liking a few other clubs, but I've said enough today.

 

[GotTheGoodes]

Absolutely. There are of course more recent rivalries like Sydney/Hawthorn, or Sydney/West Coast as mentioned earlier, but (and I've never been to New York) if you can imagine places like Queens, Brooklyn, Harlem, and The Bronx each having a footy team it might begin to make some sense.

You could start with "Shake Down The Thunder" by Jim Main which gives an (albeit relatively recent) history of the Sydney Swans. John Harms has written a couple. Matt Hardy, the comedian, has, I'm sure, done one on St Kilda. Not all of these are histories as such but give an insight into the culture that surrounds supporting various clubs.

Also "In the Blood" by Jim Main is a cracker. Has a year by year analysis from day dot to the late 00's.

(Not sure if I'm allowed to post this link but here goes...) Maybe try here for books DarkFlyer
http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/wiki/index.php/Books

 

[Benevolent Ert]

Great thread DarkFlyer. Welcome to BigFooty. As I am widely regarded by all on this board as the font of all wisdom, I felt I should clear up some of your questions. I now patiently await the flame war coming my way.

Another question: the ruckmen are taller as a general rule. There seems to be less of an advantage to height and brawn than to speed and elusiveness. Is there a strategy to "play small" and spread the field out to capitalize on these advantages? What teams employ this and how would you classify the Swans strategy to other clubs?

The ruckmen are indeed the tallest players on the ground with most ruckmen over 6'6". Most side play 2 ruckmen in their 22 selected players. Then depending on their gameplan they will play around 6 more tall "key position" players (usually between 6'4" and 6'6"). Traditionally 2 up forward (centre half forward and full forward), 2 down back (centre half back and full back) and often a "third tall" at either end. The remaining 14 or so players are usually smaller running players (though nowdays as people get taller these "small" players can be as tall as some key position players)

As a general rule about a 14/8 mix of small/tall seems to be the go, but different gameplans can adjust this ratio

I hope you guys don't tire of these questions, but it seemed like Hawthorn exceled in the bolded last year. The Grand Final seemed to be a clinic in ball control and accuracy. Correct?

You know more about this game than you're letting on. Nailed it.

Is GWS the biggest rival? If so, proximity? Please tell me reasons I should hate other teams.

As covered by others GWS is a recent "manufactured" rivalry. Being that they are the only other team in Sydney it is slowly developing as they improve, but at this stage it is still behind some of our more traditional rivals.

In the very early South Melbourne days our rivals were St Kilda, as they were the closest team geographically. The St Kilda rivalry is not as strong nowdays as most of the people from that era are now dead (except bedford)

There has been a strong rivalry with Carlton in the past, fuelled by events such as the spiteful "bloodbath" Grand Final of 1945, the Carlton "poach-a-thon" of the 80's and 90's where they systematically stole a large quantity of our talented players, and finally the "generous" offer by Carlton president John Elliott in 1992 to play all Carlton away games in Sydney if the league pulled the plug on the Swans.

Collingwood too is a rivalry that dates back to the heyday of the 30's, and has been rekindled recently by the emergence of current Collingwood president "Fathead" Eddie McGuire. Your earlier posts touched on some of the disadvantages faced by the NSW and QLD clubs, and the measures put in place by the AFL to try and correct this (retention allowances, COLA, acadamies etc). McGuire has been the most vocal opponent of these, and never misses an opportunity to stick the boot into the Swans (he's given up on the Lions now as his campaign to turn them into a basket case was largely successful)

But our present day strongest rivalries stem from the one place all great rivalries come from. Grand Finals. Hawthorn and West Coast have been our opponents in our last 4 Grand Finals, and we have split the glory one-all with each team.

Interesting. In the games I've watched, the camera simply follows the ball/official to the center of the field after a goal (and of course it is immediately in play after a behind). There are no commercial except in between quarters and half time - which is totally palatable to me. Am I watching a different broadcast?

Speaking of what happens after a goal, why does the official make such a show of cleaning the ball before each bounce? I assume it is some sort of tradition, but does anyone know the roots?

Here your first question answers your second. Yes you are watching a commercial-free broadcast, and the reason the umpire cleans the ball so much is that he is killing time while waiting for the commercial break to end.

But more importantly, the title of the book reminded me of a question I wanted to ask! You share a fight song with the University of Notre Dame here in America (it just so happens I had an older brother who attended). It is a fairly famous fight song here in America. Does anyone know the history behind the adoption of that song by the Swans? What are the words to your fight song? Do most fans know the words?

The history of the song goes back a very long way. An earlier poster suggested a bit of a fight over the use of the song, but I'm not aware of any such thing. The Swans received permission from Notre Dame to use the song, in fact only a few years back a letter was discovered, having been lost for many years, from Notre Dame University granting permission to use the song to the South Melbourne Football Club.

Hope this helps!

 

[Number37]

Just to add to SBD's history:

In Australian TV history, the most watched shows:

#8 2005 Grand Final (Sydney v West Coast)
#16 2012 Grand Final (Sydney v Hawthorn)
#24 2003 Grand Final (Brisbane v Port)
#25 2006 Grand Final (Sydney v West Coast) We were getting towelled in the first half so many Sydney viewers would have switched off & that had a dramatic effect on the ratings, otherwise this game would have had more viewers than 2005.

Despite all the hoo-haa from the AFL heartland the powers that be know how important the northern states (NSW & Qld) are to acccessing the big (bigger) dollars for the television rights.

 

[Millky95]

This is great!

GWS based in Canberra? First I've heard of that. Is that a jab at them or a real possibility? I hate them because they are opponent this weekend. Go Swans!

I hate West Cost for beating the Swans in 06 too. But recreational drugs? Are those a competitive advantage? If so, I would already be the president of my company!

Richmond LOL. Those delusional fans are the worst. They win the "offseason Grand Final" every year I bet.

They were built in Western Sydney to gain an AFL following there (A rubgy place) but have some of their home games in Canberra. Would just make more sense to move them there

Richmond are known for finishing 9th and missing out on finals

 

[GotTheGoodes]

They were built in Western Sydney to gain an AFL following there (A rubgy place) but have some of their home games in Canberra. Would just make more sense to move them there

Richmond are known for finishing 9th and missing out on finals

Ahhh Ninthmond. Always makes me smile.

 

[Ticky009]

What is considered to be the greatest single season team in AFL history?

What is considered to be the great Swans team ever?

How many Swans fans remain in Melbourne from before the move?

We also have a Team of the Century, you can find the Swans one here, these names will feature on our board and any books you get. http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/club/history/team-of-the-century

 

[DarkFlyer]

I should just add some nuance from NSW, as that is my home state.

Already we've seen references in this thread to "Rugby" as if it's just one code.

Aussie Rules fans from mostly the southern states do this all the time. It's never clear to me whether it's from sheer ignorance, or a subliminal desire to express utter contempt for any rival code (which I share, BTW).

But the fact is, if you're going to examine the cultural context of the development of our beloved footy and our beloved Swans, you're obliged to at least acknowledge the cultural reality of its main rivals.

Rugby League (or "League" or "NRL" in Australia, but never "Rugby", except to ignorant people, or willful southerners) began in northern England as a professional, predominantly working-class offshoot of Rugby Union (or "Rugby" - note, or "Union") - the original game (and amazingly - when you examine the two side-by-side today - the established game that Aussie Rules most evolved from).

They are very different games to watch. League is much simpler, and most of the activity is confined to a fairly small area, making it ideal for television, which is reflected in its massive TV ratings (the only serious rival on TV to AFL), despite having fairly paltry game attendances (except for the finals series, and the State of Origin three-match series between NSW and Queensland, which is huge).

In Australia, where we like to consider ourselves fairly egalitarian, the divide between the two codes has actually been quite profound, and is most expressed along public/private school lines. In NSW at least, most all the bankers, lawyers, surgeons etc went to private schools, and played and follow Rugby.

If you went to a state school in NSW (I assume the same applies for Queensland), you'd tend to play and follow Rugby League.

(It prompts me to ask my southern cousins, how on earth do the posh snobs and the hoi polloi effectively express their mutual disdain, if they all played the same sport at school?)

Rugby for most of its long history was an amateur game, presumably because the posh set considered themselves above such crudeness. Rugby went pro some time back now; there is now a lot more money overtly involved, and consequently there has been increasing movement of players between the two codes, but considerable enmity and suspicion still exists.

Rugby has an international dimension which is almost entirely denied Rugby League. The Rugby World Cup is the third-biggest sporting event in the world, after the soccer World Cup and the Olympics (you'd probably say the "summer" Olympics but we Aussies by and large, for obvious reasons, pretty much ignore the crap-climate Olympics).

Internationally, League really only has a presence in northern England, its birthplace, though New Zealand, generally considered the supreme Rugby Union nation, does field a team in Australia's National Rugby League, or NRL. Go figure.

Why the background lecture? Because the Sydney Swans represent the (extremely successful) vanguard of the AFL's thrust into the highly-lucrative northern market (particularly Sydney itself, considered the most crowded sporting market in an already-crowded national market).

No other country has four major football codes (soccer in Oz is for another day; don't get me started) all competing for sponsor and fan dollars, all with differing strengths and appeals, and nowhere is the competition more intense than the Sydney market, where our footy is up against not just soccer and "rugby", but soccer and two distinct rugby codes who at times are quite hostile to each other.

It's against this backdrop that the Sydney Swans, since the move from South Melbourne in 1982, have survived and lately thrived.

No appraisal of our club's proud recent history is complete without an informed understanding of the nuances of what it's been fighting against.

This is great stuff. I'll admit I was shocked to find out Sydney only got a team in 1982 and a second team in 2012. You post provides a lot of context for the reasons. I read on Wikipedia when learning about the genesis of GWS that:

The expansion licence drew increasing media skepticism and public criticism, particularly in the light of a poor finals attendance in Sydney,[14] declining Sydney Swans attendances and memberships, the economic crisis and the Tasmanian AFL Bid which had gained significant momentum and public support during 2008. An Australian Senate enquiry into the Tasmanian AFL Bid concluded that Sydney had "insurmountable cultural barriers" to the establishment of a second AFL team


"Insurmountable cultural barriers" within the same country? Now I understand.

 

[DarkFlyer]

Also "In the Blood" by Jim Main is a cracker. Has a year by year analysis from day dot to the late 00's.

(Not sure if I'm allowed to post this link but here goes...) Maybe try here for books DarkFlyer
http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/wiki/index.php/Books

So I started reading "Shake Down the Thunder" by Jim Main last night and the first chapter referred to "that mark" by Leo Barry and I realized I should really watch the 2005 Grand Final before reading the book. And thankfully there is someone like Klim who catalogues all the Swans game over the lst decade!

 

[Benevolent Ert]

So I started reading "Shake Down the Thunder" by Jim Main last night and the first chapter referred to "that mark" by Leo Barry and I realized I should really watch the 2005 Grand Final before reading the book. And thankfully there is someone like Klim who catalogues all the Swans game over the lst decade!

2005 Grand Final brings fond memories, especially "that mark" at the death, but if I'm completely honest, that moment aside, the game was a bit of a grind. The two games immediately before it - or more accurately the last quarters of those two games are always worth re-watching over and over. It sounds sacrilegious but the GF itself, Amon Buchanan kicked the winning goal about halfway through the last quarter and then we spent the next 15 minutes hanging on to that miniscule lead. Gripping? Yes. Exciting? Not really. The last quarter blitz against the Saints in the Preliminary final, and the Nick Davis heroics against the Cats in the semi are much more watchable. Personal opinion of course, but I remember that Grand Final being a very stressful experience. 2012 was a lot more relaxed and a lot more enjoyable for me.

 

[Benevolent Ert]

But you know what? Watch the 2005 Grand Final. It's a Premiership and they can't be beat. Then watch the 2012 one, because that's a Premiership AND it's an awesome game to watch.

 

[DarkFlyer]

But you know what? Watch the 2005 Grand Final. It's a Premiership and they can't be beat. Then watch the 2012 one, because that's a Premiership AND it's an awesome game to watch.

After 72 years without one, I wanted to feel what you guys felt so I watched it anyway. That mark by Barry was pretty impressive, and the emotion afterward had me a little choked up (and I didn't go through the dark period). Really cool.

 

[Millky95]

After 72 years without one, I wanted to feel what you guys felt so I watched it anyway. That mark by Barry was pretty impressive, and the emotion afterward had me a little choked up (and I didn't go through the dark period). Really cool.

I was 10 when that happened and I had no idea about most of our history at the time. All the 2 time Swan premiership players all say 2012 was the sweeter win

 

[DarkFlyer]

I was 10 when that happened and I had no idea about most of our history at the time. All the 2 time Swan premiership players all say 2012 was the sweeter win

I wonder why? Was it that 2005 was more pressure and a relief to "get the monkey off their back" (if that doesn't translate, use Google)? The team wasn't as good in 2005?

Just to add to SBD's history:

In Australian TV history, the most watched shows:

#8 2005 Grand Final (Sydney v West Coast)
#16 2012 Grand Final (Sydney v Hawthorn)
#24 2003 Grand Final (Brisbane v Port)
#25 2006 Grand Final (Sydney v West Coast) We were getting towelled in the first half so many Sydney viewers would have switched off & that had a dramatic effect on the ratings, otherwise this game would have had more viewers than 2005.

Despite all the hoo-haa from the AFL heartland the powers that be know how important the northern states (NSW & Qld) are to acccessing the big (bigger) dollars for the television rights.

Learning more of the history, I am confounded that Sydney only got a team in 1982 when the game started nearly a century before. This seems much different than the American experience with sports where there was quick adoption and diffusion of every sport from coast to coast. For example, in the 1950s the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants moved 4000 km across the U.S to establish west coast baseball. It took the VFL a full 34 years later to move the Swans to Sydney, a total of 900 km. I understand the dynamic of the different football codes, but wouldn't there be enough people who like the VFL in a large city like Sydney to support footy? Is there not a lot of migration of people or export of culture between the cities? Or am I simply just minimizing the grip the rugby codes have on NSW?

 

[DarkFlyer]

About 12,000 members and many non-members that could push that figure into the 30,000's

What are "members" and "non-members"? Season ticket holders or is there an actual "club" to belong to? How do I become a member?

 

[Glenn_]

What are "members" and "non-members"? Season ticket holders or is there an actual "club" to belong to? How do I become a member?

https://membership.sydneyswans.com.au/ various membership options there

 

[Millky95]

I wonder why? Was it that 2005 was more pressure and a relief to "get the monkey off their back" (if that doesn't translate, use Google)? The team wasn't as good in 2005?

Yeah bery much getting the monkey off the back. Also 2012 final series was beautiful. We played Adelaide in Adelaide the first game and no one said we could stop them scoring. We kept them to 40 points. We hadn't beaten Collingwood in like 8 attempts at ANZ and we beat them there. We beat Hawthorn in the Grand Final after everyone said they were "the best team in the league" and we hadn't won at the MCG in ages. Was very special

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I understand the dynamic of the different football codes, but wouldn't there be enough people who like the VFL in a large city like Sydney to support footy? Is there not a lot of migration of people or export of culture between the cities? Or am I simply just minimizing the grip the rugby codes have on NSW?

Off the top of my head, Sydney and Melbourne are both huge cities, and there's not a lot of anything in the 600 miles between them. Perhaps this causes a more intense rivalry than would normally be the case, so I think to a very large extent, the failure of Aussie Rules to establish itself earlier in Sydney, or of either of the rugby codes to really make any dent in Melbourne, may well have been primarily due to neither city wishing in any way to appear to be endorsing anything about the other's culture.

But I'm not a historian; it's just a theory. Frankly, although as I explained earlier, I'm acutely aware of the current differences in football preferences between the two states, I can't say I really understand how it has come to be like this. Over to some more learned scholar.

 

[The King!]

Blind leading the blind in here

Just dont listen to anyone based in NSW if you want to know about footy

 

[Number37]

Learning more of the history, I am confounded that Sydney only got a team in 1982 when the game started nearly a century before. This seems much different than the American experience with sports where there was quick adoption and diffusion of every sport from coast to coast. For example, in the 1950s the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants moved 4000 km across the U.S to establish west coast baseball. It took the VFL a full 34 years later to move the Swans to Sydney, a total of 900 km. I understand the dynamic of the different football codes, but wouldn't there be enough people who like the VFL in a large city like Sydney to support footy? Is there not a lot of migration of people or export of culture between the cities? Or am I simply just minimizing the grip the rugby codes have on NSW?

That is why the 'cultural' thing is so important to understand.

If you speak to people in traditional Rugby states, AFL is just a game where men in ridiculously tight shorts run around like girls with little physical manly contact, if you speak to people in traditional AFL states Rugby is just a game where men stick their heads up the backsides of other men.

There were no Australian Rules teams in non-traditional AFL cities like Sydney & Brisbane just like there were no Rugby League or Rugby teams in non-traditional Rugby cities like Melbourne, Adelaide & Perth until the 90's.
Basically the VFL (Victoria), the SANFL (South Australia) and the WAFL (Western Australia) were stand alone competitions, there was movement of players between those competitions but they were separate competitions. The VFL (& its different incarnations) was seen as the premier competition but that would largely be a matter of opinion and firey debate.
In the 80's the VFL basically went broke and had to evolve and along came the AFL.
Much debate is centred on the various interpretations of what the AFL actually is;
In one corner is the 'it is a national competition' (mainly argued by non-Victorian clubs & supporters). In the other corner is the 'VFL with token membership for SA, WA, Qld & NSW' (Usually argued (at least implied) by Victorian clubs & supporters, especially Fathead McGuire and his conga line of Victorian arse kissers.)
Victorian clubs, ALL of whom have gone broke at one point since the 70's and required bail-outs to keep them alive, think their bail outs are a god given right and that assistance that the AFL provides to clubs like Sydney and Brisbane is the work of the devil. The main argument seems to be that AFL assistance to non-Victorian clubs has resulted in those clubs getting an unfair advantage, which the opponents simply measure by the number of premierships (Brisbane 3 and Sydney 2). Coupled with the fact that SA & WA clubs have won 3 premierships each you can see how this might upset Victorian clubs and supporters, their wails of protest are usually accompanied by the inference that is their competition. It is almost as if assistance is the only ingredient in making a successful team, but that is the deluded Victorians for you.
For example: Mainly because they were sh!t and they were mainly sh!t because they were being run like old boys clubs where everything bad was swept under the carpet, in the 00's Victorian clubs were under-represented in the finals and there were calls for inquiries to find out why; code for: give them more money or other benefits like priority draft picks which most of them just wasted, except Hawthorn who built their current team on the back of priority draft picks.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Victorian clubs, ALL of whom have gone broke at one point since the 70's and required bail-outs to keep them alive

Is that a fact? Every single one? I did not know that.

Puts a very different complexion on things.