Club History Before the Crows, there was the Redlegs

[bomberclifford]

Bay disco car park where men were bay players and women were teammates' wives.

*coaches

 

[Magpiespower]

How's this for a quote from Don Roach, 1982...

"Success and planning by the VFL in marketing and refining Australian football has led the SANFL to the conclusion that the VFL's plan to extend its competition has considerable merit. The SANFL wishes to become par of expanded competition. The sooner the announcement and commitment is made to support the VFL in its expansion and development of the competition so it becomes the national competition, the better."

 

[Ford Fairlane]

*coaches

As well it is true, but I also remember back when the coach was a player

 

[bomberclifford]

As well it is true, but I also remember back when the coach was a player

Ha!

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

How's this for a quote from Don Roach, 1982...

"Success and planning by the VFL in marketing and refining Australian football has led the SANFL to the conclusion that the VFL's plan to extend its competition has considerable merit. The SANFL wishes to become par of expanded competition. The sooner the announcement and commitment is made to support the VFL in its expansion and development of the competition so it becomes the national competition, the better."

As I said earlier, prior to October 1986 the SANFL had plenty of vision.

If the VFL didnt ask for $4mil initially over 10 years and then changed it to upfront to get Fitzroy to vote in favour of expansion at theat meeting at VFL House in October 1986, the SANFL would have put a team into any expanded comp. Also the WCE wouldn't have been $12/13mil in debt at the end of its 3rd year in operation and the Brisbane Bears broke with its private owners. Same with asking for $6.5mil for the swans licence. These were the days of double digit interest rates, and usually closer o 15% than 10%, so if a club went out and borrow a few million dollars, if you could get it from a bank, then your interest payments were more than your footy department spending.

Trouble with footy was that to quote Justin Madden "It is an industry full of frightened people." There was a lot of ego and testosterone but there wasn't a lot of structured rational thinking. Nobody was going to vote for clubs and competitions to become irrelevant, most league and club directors and administrators were all frightened they wouldn't survive.

 

[GremioPower]

From the later interviews with Oakley etc, it's clear the AFL wanted at least 1 composite side.

However, I think if Norwood had had a little foresight and backed Port, they would have been very difficult to ignore for the 2nd licence.

The other question I have is, why did the AFL need the SANFL if the SANFL was so resistant to entering a team? Just go around them. Speak to some Adelaide businessmen and lure some good footy administrators out of the SANFL to form a standalone club playing out of Adelaide Oval. The fact that the AFL bothered to deal with the SANFL despite their resistance has been a terrible thing for South Australian football IMO.

There is no problem is existing one composite side, but it should have never been the first one to get in.

 

[GremioPower]

How's this for a quote from Don Roach, 1982...

"Success and planning by the VFL in marketing and refining Australian football has led the SANFL to the conclusion that the VFL's plan to extend its competition has considerable merit. The SANFL wishes to become par of expanded competition. The sooner the announcement and commitment is made to support the VFL in its expansion and development of the competition so it becomes the national competition, the better."

It was too late. I am under the impression that the short-lived Championship of Australia in the 70's made VFL to realize they had all the leverage over the other leagues. There wouldn't be partner leagues, only subordinates.

 

[edgie]

If Port were first in, no doubt one of the other SANFL parasites would have tried to attach themselves to Norwood regardless, then they would have sucked the life out of it right back.

Sent from mTalk

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

It was too late. I am under the impression that the short-lived Championship of Australia in the 70's made VFL to realize they had all the leverage over the other leagues. There wouldn't be partner leagues, only subordinates.

Nah it wasn't the Championship of Australia series at all. It was the sheer weight of money, population and amount of big public companies that had their head offices in Melbourne compared to Perth, Adelaide and Hobart that meant the VFL was always going to call the shots. In the 1970's and 1980's air travel in Australia was very expensive. It was an noncompetitive airline market. It wasn't going to stop teams travelling but it would mean very few fans would travel to another city.

Which other of the big soccer leagues or other football codes around the world have more than half the teams from one city in a national league?? Last time I looked at Argentinian football, Buenos Aires had 15 of the teams in a 30 team in the Primeria league. Sydney in the National Rugby League have 9 of the 16 teams. But what other developed country has its 2 biggest cities be dominated by 2 different football codes?

 

[GremioPower]

Nah it wasn't the Championship of Australia series at all. It was the sheer weight of money, population and amount of big public companies that had their head offices in Melbourne compared to Perth, Adelaide and Hobart that meant the VFL was always going to call the shots. In the 1970's and 1980's air travel in Australia was very expensive. It was an noncompetitive airline market. It wasn't going to stop teams travelling but it would mean very few fans would travel to another city.

Which other of the big soccer leagues or other football codes around the world have more than half the teams from one city in a national league?? Last time I looked at Argentinian football, Buenos Aires had 15 of the teams in a 30 team in the Primeria league. Sydney in the National Rugby League have 9 of the 16 teams. But what other developed country has its 2 biggest cities be dominated by 2 different football codes?

Brazil resembles Australia a bit. We still have our states leagues until today, and they are top-tier in their own right. I'll detail this later

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Brazil resembles Australia a bit. We still have our states leagues until today, and they are top-tier in their own right. I'll detail this later

That's why I started the Brasilian soccer thread in the off topics board. It sounds like a complex set up with city, state and national championships.

 

[GremioPower]

That's why I started the Brasilian soccer thread in the off topics board. It sounds like a complex set up with city, state and national championships.

I'll reply there, of course. Here, I will just say that: (a) the national league was born from a competition between two state leagues — instead straight from a state league like VFL/AFL; and, (b) for decades, the national competion was something like your State of Origin — state teams playing against each other in knockout rounds.

 

[GremioPower]

Nah it wasn't the Championship of Australia series at all. It was the sheer weight of money, population and amount of big public companies that had their head offices in Melbourne compared to Perth, Adelaide and Hobart that meant the VFL was always going to call the shots.

Those would be the reasons why VFL was the most powerful league, which are fine. I said that the CoA made the Victorians fully AWARE of that. One thing is to be; other, is to know that is.

The CoA was held in SA and WA, and VFL accepted to be part of it. This seems to be sign that VFL respected WAFA and SANFL to the point of accepting as a fact that the VFL Grand Final did not crown the Australian champion. Up to that point, any sense of superiority from Vic would be of a "primus inter pares" (first among equals).

After some years, it became clear for VFL that they were "first without equals". They dropped out from CoA and started their own thing. There was no need to pass through Adelaide and Perth to be recognized as national champions — VFL Premiership was enough.

Non-Victorians could join in, but it would be on terms dictated by Melbourne — i.e., if they deserve such a honour, and for the greatness of VFL. Since the VFL Premier was the national champion, the league changed its name accordingly: the AFL was born.

At least, that is how I see the history at this moment. Feel free to criticize it, please.

 

[raptalia]

From the later interviews with Oakley etc, it's clear the AFL wanted at least 1 composite side.

However, I think if Norwood had had a little foresight and backed Port, they would have been very difficult to ignore for the 2nd licence.

The other question I have is, why did the AFL need the SANFL if the SANFL was so resistant to entering a team? Just go around them. Speak to some Adelaide businessmen and lure some good footy administrators out of the SANFL to form a standalone club playing out of Adelaide Oval. The fact that the AFL bothered to deal with the SANFL despite their resistance has been a terrible thing for South Australian football IMO.

The answer was Football Park.

The AFL wanted an all seat stadium capable of holding 40,000- 50,000 in comfort between March and September which is something the Adelaide Oval could not offer prior to re development. In addition if AFL footy was played at Football Park the AFL only had to deal with the SANFL had they used Adelaide Oval the SACA would have been drawn into the deal. I was a close acquaintance of the Port Chairman at the time and he was adamant that Football Park was the main reason our bid failed. The AFL also did not want to go to war with the entire State as they had us to do that for them.

At one stage during negotiations the PAFC asked the SACA if they would support Port using the Adelaide Oval for home games and the SACA did not want any part of the deal. I guess that would have poured more cold water on the only real alternative to Football Park.

 

[GremioPower]

The answer was Football Park.

The AFL wanted an all seat stadium capable of holding 40,000- 50,000 in comfort between March and September which is something the Adelaide Oval could not offer prior to re development. In addition if AFL footy was played at Football Park the AFL only had to deal with the SANFL had they used Adelaide Oval the SACA would have been drawn into the deal. I was a close acquaintance of the Port Chairman at the time and he was adamant that Football Park was the main reason our bid failed. The AFL also did not want to go to war with the entire State as they had us to do that for them.

At one stage during negotiations the PAFC asked the SACA if they would support Port using the Adelaide Oval for home games and the SACA did not want any part of the deal. I guess that would have poured more cold water on the only real alternative to Football Park.

In brief, SANFL should have had realized that the play in hand would be trying to maximize the number of teams in the AFL. It should have aimed at two individual clubs and one composite — the composite being the last one to get in.

 

[raptalia]

In brief, SANFL should have had realized that the play in hand would be trying to maximize the number of teams in the AFL. It should have aimed at two individual clubs and one composite — the composite being the last one to get in.

In fairness to the SANFL they had always made it known they favoured a composite side. There was debate about a South Australian team in the extended VFL around the time the WCE were formed and the majority of SA football supporters favoured a composite team. That was possibly because they did not want to see Port in as a stand alone side.

In the period prior to 1990 the real debate about entering the AFL was not so much 'if' but 'when'. The SANFL always held the view that they wanted to enter 'on their terms' and would not entertain the idea until 1995 at the earliest. Bruce Weber and the majority on the Port Board were the catalyst that bought it on earlier. History shows that Bruce and our Board were right and the SANFL was wrong as 1990 was the time to move. Had the SANFL been more pragmatic in their time frame they would have floated a composite proposal with the AFL in 1989 and our bid would not have seen the light of day. Instead the SANFL held meetings at McCracken and voted not to move on the issue.

 

[GremioPower]

Such an interesting thread but 16 pages already - wtf

Well...

Certified Legendary Thread

It wasn't me who said it...

 

[u2uabrs]

That's how i've always understood it. The VFL basically used Port to force the SANFL to form the composite side at the same time diminishing any leverage the SANFL had with PA always the favoured second SA side/club as any other club woul've taken supporters away from any future composite side ie the Crows.

IN 1994, SA football was amid a lengthy and costly bidding process for the second SA-based AFL licence that was won by Port Adelaide.

Actually, there was no race. The AFL always wanted Port Adelaide - and now then AFL chief, Ross Oakley, admits as much in his memoirs, The Phoenix Rises, that were released yesterday.

“It was a little bit, we owe Port Adelaide one,” Oakley told The Advertiser on Tuesday.

This is in reference to the Port Adelaide Football Club breaking the SANFL impasse on VFL expansion in 1990 but not being rewarded with the first SA-based AFL licence.

Norwood spent $150,000 putting together a joint Norwood-Sturt bid to claim the second licence. But in 1994, after Oakley briefed the SANFL delegates at a hotel on North Tce, Norwood director Phil Gallagher left the meeting declaring the bidding process was a farce - the AFL wanted Port Adelaide.

Now he has confirmation in Oakley’s book where the former St Kilda player refers to Port Adelaide’s “journey to join the AFL” as “tortuous with several false starts”.

By 1994, Oakley was ready to end it. He writes: “We told the SANFL at the time the Crows deal was done (in 1990) that a second team would be contemplated in due course and we favoured Port Adelaide to be that team.

“Many in Adelaide felt that Port was the ‘fall guy’ that forced the SANFL to field a team earlier than it had intended to.

“Port Adelaide was our choice. (SANFL president) Max Basheer and (chief executive) Leigh Whicker were aware the AFL Commission would not compromise on this selection, but said they would assist us to find a way to achieve the outcome we wanted.

“In front of a rather hostile meeting of the SANFL clubs (on North Tce), I explained that a ‘traditional’ club with an established supporter base had to be the second club as it would be too hard to build support for another composite club.”

Port Adelaide was the only single club submission before the SA Football Commission that decided on where the second licence would be based. Then club chief executive Brian Cunningham says Port Adelaide was never tipped off and made a genuine and expensive bid for the licence.

Oakley on Tuesday told The Advertiser the tainting of Port Adelaide in 1990 - the club was labelled as treacherous - worked to the AFL agenda of having a second entry to starkly contrast the Crows.

“In the end we knew the SANFL could not do without Port Adelaide after 1990,” Oakley said. “And when there are issues such as these, someone always gets tainted. But it gave us a supporter base for a second team without damaging the Crows.

“Leigh and Max knew the AFL Commission was hell bent on Port Adelaide coming in - and to their credit they worked at making it happen.”

Great Thread!

I've always thought of Norwood as our greatest rival and it's a pity they will never make it into the AFL. I haven't looked at all the results but after they won the 1975 GF (first in 25 years!) Norwood have probably bested us in head to head battles. I know we had some great finals victories - the 1988 2nd Semi comes to mind and the 1980 GF but the 84 and 97 losses still cut deep - particularly 84!

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and the history of the 1990 and 1994 bids to get into the AFL. I knew alot of the history but there was also plenty I didn't. I've highlighted the above post because it makes it seem that Max and Leigh were cooperative and supportive of both Port and the AFL in ensuring our 1994 bid was successful. But that doesn't mean they were happy about it! The Sanfl knew that we would bring them "rivers of gold" and at the same time they could make sure we would always be the poor cousin to their beloved Crows.
The AFL, for all it's faults, forced the Sanfl to enter the national competition in 1990. It used us to do it but did reward us by again forcing the Sanfl to accept our bid in 1994. Then, after being r*ped and hamstrung by the Sanfl for 15+ years, the AFL again stepped in to help us be free of the Sanfl shackles and finally control our own destiny as the Port Adelaide Football Club!
I'm not saying that I love the AFL but it's pretty clear we wouldn't be where we are without them. If the Sanfl had it's way our club would be dead.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

This is from my review of the 1990 season

Port aims for the national stage

On Sunday 29 July, Port players were in recovery mode following a comfortable 62 point win over West Torrens in the round 14 late game of a Saturday double header at Football Park. On Sunday respected Victorian journalist Mike Sheahan went to press with an article claiming it was believed that Port Adelaide was in deep discussion with the AFL over entering the national competition. Speculation gathered momentum quickly and was spreading like wildfire by Tuesday 31 July when Port Adelaide formally advised the SANFL then publicly announced that a Heads of Agreement had been signed with the AFL on 30 July to field a Port Adelaide team in the AFL in the 1991 season.

The news was met with unbridled delight by most Port Adelaide supporters and furious indignation by the SANFL and all other clubs. Port was accused of treachery and as the vitriol ran through the local media there were calls to remove the club immediately from the local competition. The SANFL advised Port to withdraw its AFL bid or face exclusion from the 1991 SANFL draw. The use of Football Park to host AFL matches was denied. Friendships fractured along club lines and reports of ugly confrontations between Port and other supporters emerged. The news was so momentous on a local scale that ongoing reporting pushed the Iraq invasion of Kuwait on 2 August out of lead status in local media.

Port Adelaide had negotiated handsome entry conditions in meetings with the AFL that were revealed to have stretched back to early July following an approach to Port by AFL Executive Commissioner Alan Schwab through intermediary Ian McKenzie, a former Port Adelaide General Manager. A meeting between Schwab and Port President Bruce Weber was arranged for 7 July. As Weber recounted in a 1990 interview with Port Adelaide historian John Wood for the Magpie News November 1990, Vol.1(4) Schwab was very keen on a club side entering the competition having seen the early difficulties of the West Coast Eagles and Brisbane Bears. Schwab had the greatest respect for Port Adelaide, believing it to be the best club outside Victoria. Schwab as a former General Manager of Richmond was very aware of Port Adelaide’s strength, tradition and history. Negotiations continued through July between the AFL and a sub-committee from Port until the signing of the Heads of Agreement at the end of the month.

The AFL’s keenness to have Port Adelaide involved in its competition was reflected in the entry conditions negotiated with Port. Port was guaranteed that 28 of 44 players already drafted could remain in SA; Port would have access to up to six out-of-contract former SANFL players in the AFL; a three year moratorium on drafting players was agreed; Port would retain its country zone as well as some of the rest of SA as a zone; a limit was placed on use of Port’s yearly dividend for paying off its entrance fee; there was no up-front fee payment with the AFL paying $1.4 million in the first two years. Port’s plan also included fielding a reserves team in the AFL, or optimistically, using Port Adelaide in the SANFL for this purpose. When the SANFL’s reaction became clear, it was reported that the South Australian Football Association would become the home of Port Adelaide’s reserve grades.

Weber maintained that while Port’s move established the club’s future in the national competition, it also set about protecting the SANFL. The moratorium and retention of contracted SANFL players kept quality players in the state. By acting before the SANFL’s self-imposed 1993 negotiation date, the competition would be spared the annual haemorrhage of local players drafted to the AFL. Port’s agreement would see funds generated by the club returned to the local competition to strengthen grass-roots football.

Weber was later certain the entry conditions caused Port problems with the AFL club Directors. Port was assured by the AFL that the numbers were there to see Port’s entry bid accepted. Under AFL rules a two thirds majority of clubs had to agree for a proposal to be passed. The initial vote was to be held on 6 August, but despite the assurances from the AFL Commission that Port’s proposal would be accepted, the AFL clubs deferred the vote to 20 August. At the 20 August meeting Port’s proposal was again deferred until 19 September. Collingwood were unhappy about another black and white team entering the competition. Other clubs were concerned about Port’s concessions and how it would affect their position. The reaction in South Australia to Port’s bid would have been watched with disquiet by the AFL clubs. Weber was convinced in these early stages that Port was only one club shy of getting the required majority. He believed if he could have spoken to Collingwood, he could have struck a deal that would have allayed their anger at sharing club colours and pushed Port’s proposal over the line.

However, Weber was unable to negotiate with the AFL or its clubs due to legal action instigated by the SANFL and the remaining nine clubs led by Glenelg and Norwood. Firstly Port was hit with an injunction to prevent any further negotiations with the AFL or its clubs. Despite this legal manoeuvre, the SANFL was free to negotiate an alternative offer with the AFL. Next, each Port Adelaide Director was hit with a personal liability claim for damages against the SANFL and its clubs, which threatened their assets and livelihood. Port Adelaide countered with a restraint of trade claim so it could continue to negotiate, but this counter-claim was held up in the legal process.

Against this bitter and acrimonious backdrop, Port’s bid lost traction with the AFL clubs. In a swirling maelstrom of club jealousies, concerns over Port’s concessions, hostile legal battles, local animosity, media posturing and a volatile, discordant atmosphere, Port could no longer make headway with its bid. To no one’s surprise the SANFL stepped in with its own proposal to the AFL for a composite team in the national competition. Their initial bid was rejected but with further refinement and dilution of the terms and conditions negotiated by Port Adelaide, and with Port Adelaide effectively locked out of negotiations by legal action, the composite team bid was ultimately successful. When the AFL clubs finally met again on 19 September, the SANFL’s proposal was accepted with a 13-1 vote. While Ross Oakley maintained Port’s bid had not been rejected and was still being considered, it was clear the AFL dream for Port Adelaide was over for now.

The AFL ensured Port Adelaide was not punished by the SANFL for its attempt to reach for the stars, with the club continuing on unimpeded in the local competition and its legal costs covered by the national body. All legal action was withdrawn.

From the outside looking in it appeared the AFL Commission headed by Ross Oakley and Alan Schwab was keen to have Port Adelaide join the national competition, while the clubs preferred a SANFL-approved entry with lesser concessions. After the 20 August impasse Oakley maintained Port Adelaide was the Commission’s preferred choice and he was looking forward to the removal of legal obstacles to continue negotiations. When pressed on the unavailability of Football Park, Oakley stated that all the AFL financial plans were based on Port playing its home games at Alberton Oval. The reality was that the 20 August deferral by the AFL clubs would allow the Heads of Agreement between Port and the AFL to lapse with a 31 August expiry date and allow a formal SANFL bid to be accepted. It was apparent by this time the majority of the AFL clubs were looking at an alternative to Port Adelaide.

Like a seasoned surfer Port Adelaide had seen the big wave coming and with its usual sense of destiny caught the wave and taken it for a spectacular ride aiming for the shoreline. Port had sailed on the crest of the wave and traversed the depths of its teal green tube, surrounded by sharks and dolphins, soaring over treacherous reefs but ultimately being dumped before the prize could be reached.

Port Adelaide would learn from this experience, adapt, improve and ultimately achieve its aim of playing on the national stage. Port Adelaide sometimes loses battles but it is all about winning wars.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Those would be the reasons why VFL was the most powerful league, which are fine. I said that the CoA made the Victorians fully AWARE of that. One thing is to be; other, is to know that is.

The CoA was held in SA and WA, and VFL accepted to be part of it. This seems to be sign that VFL respected WAFA and SANFL to the point of accepting as a fact that the VFL Grand Final did not crown the Australian champion. Up to that point, any sense of superiority from Vic would be of a "primus inter pares" (first among equals).

After some years, it became clear for VFL that they were "first without equals". They dropped out from CoA and started their own thing. There was no need to pass through Adelaide and Perth to be recognized as national champions — VFL Premiership was enough.

Non-Victorians could join in, but it would be on terms dictated by Melbourne — i.e., if they deserve such a honour, and for the greatness of VFL. Since the VFL Premier was the national champion, the league changed its name accordingly: the AFL was born.

At least, that is how I see the history at this moment. Feel free to criticize it, please.

The Championship of Australia games weren't taken that seriously , by the Victorian premiers in particular,. WA and Tassie also sent their premiers to Adelaide and games were played over a week in October during the late 1960s to about 1974 but then it was cancelled as teams didn't send their full teams. Mstt teams had 5 or 6 players drop out. The big leagues changed it by making a mid season mid week night competition involving about 16 sides from the top 4 states but after a couple of years it was stopped because it didn't really work and being a more physical game than soccer playing 3 games in 7 days took it toll on players.

 

[Norwood1878]

The Championship of Australia games weren't taken that seriously , by the Victorian premiers in particular,. WA and Tassie also sent their premiers to Adelaide and games were played over a week in October during the late 1960s to about 1974 but then it was cancelled as teams didn't send their full teams. Mstt teams had 5 or 6 players drop out. The big leagues changed it by making a mid season mid week night competition involving about 16 sides from the top 4 states but after a couple of years it was stopped because it didn't really work and being a more physical game than soccer playing 3 games in 7 days took it toll on players.

Yep, pretty much when it became what was known as the NFL night series till about '79 eg the Ardath Cup, Escort Cup played at night at the Parade till lights were erected at VFL Park and the VFL went it alone with their own night series.

 

[Norwood1878]

There is no problem is existing one composite side, but it should have never been the first one to get in.

It (The need for a composite side) was about maximising audiences and TV rights deals. The VFL was struggling financially as a comp not to mention many of the vic clubs.

 

[Magpiespower]

The Championship of Australia games weren't taken that seriously , by the Victorian premiers in particular,. WA and Tassie also sent their premiers to Adelaide and games were played over a week in October during the late 1960s to about 1974 but then it was cancelled as teams didn't send their full teams. Mstt teams had 5 or 6 players drop out. The big leagues changed it by making a mid season mid week night competition involving about 16 sides from the top 4 states but after a couple of years it was stopped because it didn't really work and being a more physical game than soccer playing 3 games in 7 days took it toll on players.

Swan Districts, 1982. Sent over a team of reserves and juniors to play Richmond at VFL Park. Got belted by 186pts and copped a two year ban from the Escort/Sterling/Foster's Cup, lol...

 

[Magpiespower]

Footy Times Yearbook 1991...

 

[Magpiespower]