Opinion Best player in the game going into 2022?

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Midfield stars to never kick ''more'' than 29 goals in a season.

Buckley, Judd, Pendlebury, Sam Mitchell, Simon Black, Robert Harvey, Ben Cousins (first yr kicked 34 as a small fwd), Fyfe and plenty more. Neale and Oliver are guns but have never kicked more than 14 and 12. Tom Mitchell and Cripps the same.

29/29 (disposals/Goals) is nothing to sneeze at and difficult to achieve. Some of the above never averaged 29 disposals in a season let alone kick nearly 30 goals.

I wouldn't underplay the value of goal-kicking mids.

You're even trying to downplay having the most score involvements in the AFL. Coming second is better according to you. And it's as if you don't realise that the best mids in the comp have someone (to varying degrees) trying to stop them every single week.

Yes but all midfielders play different roles so it’s not the be all and end all. He is a forward of centre mid (the best kind) so scoreboard impact is expected. What I am saying is that he isn’t tearing teams apart on the scoreboard.
I’m also not downplaying his S.I I am just pointing out the player you were comparing him to has virtually identical numbers.
The attention a gun forward gets compared to a gun mid aren’t comparable at all. I just watched Walsh make an AA side while only getting tagged for one half of a game this season where he was given an absolute bath. I also watched Judd play almost his entire career at Carlton with a player hanging off of him all game. It has never been easier to play midfield and get big numbers. For a forward I’d say the complete opposite.

 

[Trav 20]

Yes but all midfielders play different roles so it’s not the be all and end all. He is a forward of centre mid (the best kind) so scoreboard impact is expected. What I am saying is that he isn’t tearing teams apart on the scoreboard.
I’m also not downplaying his S.I I am just pointing out the player you were comparing him to has virtually identical numbers.
The attention a gun forward gets compared to a gun mid aren’t comparable at all. I just watched Walsh make an AA side while only getting tagged for one half of a game this season where he was given an absolute bath. I also watched Judd play almost his entire career at Carlton with a player hanging off of him all game. It has never been easier to play midfield and get big numbers. For a forward I’d say the complete opposite.

Goal-kicking mids are rare. Why ? It's difficult to do. Not many are capable of regularly hitting the scoreboard. That's why they're so valued. Who's Carlton's goal-kicking mid ? You don't have one. It's not that no-one isn't asigned that ''role''. They just don't grow on trees.

Top 8 sides and their highest centre square mid goal-kickers.

Melbourne: Petracca 29
Port: Wines 10
Geelong: Menegoal 12
Brisbane: Zorko 17
Footscray: Bontempelli 31
Sydney: Parker 15
GWS: Kelly 16
Essendon: Parish 10

Most inside mids tend to kick between 10-13 goals at most (some less), which is why Bontempelli and Petracca are so valuable. To brush it off as ''scoreboard impact is expected'' is intellectually lazy.

 

[Tylerbombers]

Goal-kicking mids are rare. Why ? It's difficult to do. Not many are capable of regularly hitting the scoreboard. That's why they're so valued. Who's Carlton's goal-kicking mid ? You don't have one. It's not that no-one isn't asigned that ''role''. They just don't grow on trees.

Top 8 sides and their highest centre square mid goal-kickers.

Melbourne: Petracca 29
Port: Wines 10
Geelong: Menegoal 12
Brisbane: Zorko 17
Footscray: Bontempelli 31
Sydney: Parker 15
GWS: Kelly 16
Essendon: Parish 10

Most inside mids tend to kick between 10-13 goals at most (some less), which is why Bontempelli and Petracca are so valuable. To brush it off as ''scoreboard impact is expected'' is intellectually lazy.

Essendons should be Stringer with 41 goals

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Not sure about “best” but “most important” in the scheme of any team winning a premiership would definitely be Max Gawn

11

Max Gawn

Age

33

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.7

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

35.3

5star

D

18.5

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

7.0

4star

CL

3.5

4star

HO

29.2

5star

D

8.4

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

15.6

5star

.

So yeah, Max Gawn

11

Max Gawn

Age

33

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.7

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

35.3

5star

D

18.5

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

7.0

4star

CL

3.5

4star

HO

29.2

5star

D

8.4

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

15.6

5star

.

 

[Trav 20]

Essendons should be Stringer with 41 goals

What's his percentage time forward ?

Petracca/Bontempelli are bona fide mids who rest forward.

Stringer is more a forward/mid isn't he ?

 

[Tylerbombers]

What's his percentage time forward ?

Petracca/Bontempelli are bona fide mids who rest forward.

Stringer is more a forward/mid isn't he ?

Stringer averages more centre clearances then either of them and about 80% of CBAs. They all split there time between mid and fwd to some extent but I don't have any stats on that.

 

[Trav 20]

Stringer averages more centre clearances then either of them and about 80% of CBAs. They all split there time between mid and fwd to some extent but I don't have any stats on that.

I know he attends a lot of CBs.

Against Melbourne he'd attend the centre bounce and then go forward where he was picked up by Hibberd. He played 80% forward if I had to guess.

 

[captain blood 17]

Stringer averages more centre clearances then either of them and about 80% of CBAs. They all split there time between mid and fwd to some extent but I don't have any stats on that.

If you don’t have the data, how can you verify the claims you make?

 

[boxxie2022]

If you don’t have the data, how can you verify the claims you make?

Imagine bringing stringer into this debate.

 

[Tylerbombers]

I know he attends a lot of CBs.

Against Melbourne he'd attend the centre bounce and then go forward where he was picked up by Hibberd. He played 80% forward if I had to guess.

Dusty does the same, both are listed as mids on the AFL website.

 

[Blackas87]

He’s been injured the last 2 years. Still a top 5 player in my opinion. And factually you are incorrect. He won the Brownlow in 2015. Below was Freo’s ladder position.

Factually I’m am not incorrect.

I said he won a Brownlow while Fremantle was a bottom half team.

He won a Brownlow in 2019

2019 ladder Fremantle were a bottom half team.

Factually I am correct he won a Brownlow as a bottom half team

 

[Trav 20]

Dusty does the same, both are listed as mids on the AFL website.

One of Martin's former coaches had an interesting insight into him during commentary of the 2021 season. Leppitsch said that make no mistake Martin is a forward who plays midfield minutes. He said Martin will often start in the middle, but from that moment on he becomes a forward. I'd put Stringer in that category. Whereas Petracca, for example, is very much a mid who may rest forward.

 

[Tylerbombers]

If you don’t have the data, how can you verify the claims you make?

The only data I dont have is the exact split of time forward and mid, which I didnt make any specific claims about. Do you know of somewhere I can get that information? CBAs is the best stat I know of for determining whether a player plays on ball.

 

[Trav 20]

CBAs is the best stat I know of for determining whether a player plays on ball.

It's not.

If you attend centre bounces after a goal because you're good at getting those clearances and then immediately push forward post those stoppages you're a forward who attends CBs.

You need a great tank to be a midfielder in today's game.

 

[captain blood 17]

Factually I’m am not incorrect.
View attachment 1311647
I said he won a Brownlow while Fremantle was a bottom half team.

He won a Brownlow in 2019

2019 ladder Fremantle were a bottom half team.

Factually I am correct he won a Brownlow as a bottom half team

He’s won 2 brownlows…..oooops

 

[captain blood 17]

Imagine bringing stringer into this debate.

I didn’t want to go there.

 

[Blackas87]

He’s won 2 brownlows…..oooops

Yeah I know

I said he won a Brownlow while Fremantle were a bottom half team. Factually correct.

I never said he didn’t win Brownlow while Fremantle were a top club…… ooooops

 

[captain blood 17]

Yeah I know

I said he won a Brownlow while Fremantle were a bottom half team. Factually correct.

I never said he didn’t win Brownlow while Fremantle were a top club…… ooooops

Lol, i forget you need to remove your brain when coming onto the MB. Now that you have just found out he was won 2 brownlows, go actually re read and digest my post on Fyfe.
He is still a top 5 player in the league. Fact.

 

[Tylerbombers]

One of Martin's former coaches had an interesting insight into him during commentary of the 2021 season. Leppitsch said that make no mistake Martin is a forward who plays midfield minutes. He said Martin will often start in the middle, but from that moment on he becomes a forward. I'd put Stringer in that category. Whereas Petracca, for example, is very much a mid who may rest forward.

I mean its all semantics but I imagine if you ask Richmond or Essendon supporters who there goal kicking mid is they will say Dusty and Stringer respectively. They both play a combination of mid and fwd. Whether that split satisfies your requirement to clarify him as a mid is up to you, I would personally include him in discussions about either position. The AFL site calls them both mids, champion data calls them mid/fwds.

Stringers heat map


Petraccas heat map


Martins heat map

Bontempellis heat map


Greenes heat map


Fritschs heat map


Make of that what you will, its all just semantics but clearly Dusty and Stringer arent simply forwards. I would include them as centre square mid goal-kickers.

 

[Tylerbombers]

It's not.

Then what is?

 

[sante]

I’d take Toby Greene

4

Toby Greene

Age

31

Ht

182cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.7

5star

K

12.5

5star

HB

10.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

3.0

5star

G

1.2

4star

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.8

4star

T

1.0

2star

G

2.3

5star

D

26.6

5star

K

12.4

5star

HB

14.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

3.6

5star

G

0.0

1star

over Petracca every day

 

[Trav 20]

I mean its all semantics but I imagine if you ask Richmond or Essendon supporters who there goal kicking mid is they will say Dusty and Stringer respectively. They both play a combination of mid and fwd. Whether that split satisfies your requirement to clarify him as a mid is up to you, I would personally include him in discussions about either position. The AFL site calls them both mids, champion data calls them mid/fwds.

Stringers heat map
View attachment 1311663

Petraccas heat map
View attachment 1311664

Martins heat map
View attachment 1311665
Bontempellis heat map
View attachment 1311666

Greenes heat map

View attachment 1311667
Fritschs heat map
View attachment 1311668

Make of that what you will, its all just semantics but clearly Dusty and Stringer arent simply forwards. I would include them as centre square mid goal-kickers.

Firstly, I'm quoting one of Martin's old coaches who said he's first and foremost a forward. You can't be much more definitve than that.

Secondly, how they're labelled by the AFL website is pretty irrelevant.

Thirdly, thanks for posting those heat maps, as they're very informative. Bontempelli's and Petracca's are completely different and highlight how their roles differ to the others, who are forwards with midfield minutes.

 

[Blackas87]

Lol, i forget you need to remove your brain when coming onto the MB. Now that you have just found out he was won 2 brownlows, go actually re read and digest my post on Fyfe.
He is still a top 5 player in the leag

You’ve changed your story.

Originally stating he doesn’t get the attention because he plays in a bottom half team.

Guy is a superstar who plays in a team which is improving, but, they are still a lower half performing team which means he doesn’t gain the attention he once did when they were winning a lot more.

I caught you out as I pointed out he won a Brownlow in 2019 playing in a bottom half team, he was getting attention in 2019.

I said the past 2 years he has not performed at his high level as to why he is not getting attention.

Then you basically agree with me saying he’s been injured the past 2 years

He’s been injured the last 2 years.

So you agree, he hasn’t performed the past 2 years as to why he doesn’t get the attention.

I think you need to put your brain back in when coming onto the main board

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Goal-kicking mids are rare. Why ? It's difficult to do. Not many are capable of regularly hitting the scoreboard. That's why they're so valued. Who's Carlton's goal-kicking mid ? You don't have one. It's not that no-one isn't asigned that ''role''. They just don't grow on trees.

Top 8 sides and their highest centre square mid goal-kickers.

Melbourne: Petracca 29
Port: Wines 10
Geelong: Menegoal 12
Brisbane: Zorko 17
Footscray: Bontempelli 31
Sydney: Parker 15
GWS: Kelly 16
Essendon: Parish 10

Most inside mids tend to kick between 10-13 goals at most (some less), which is why Bontempelli and Petracca are so valuable. To brush it off as ''scoreboard impact is expected'' is intellectually lazy.

I’m not sure we really have one but I think Cripps tried that this season because of injury.
Parker and Zorko are pretty good examples. Statistically in the past they have had pretty similar seasons yet never even been in the discussion as best in the league. Petracca is in a group of about 5 imo who could all lay claim to it.

Of course they are highly valued because it’s a brilliant trait that is relatively rare. What I’m saying is comparing his goal kicking to someone like Greene who has a direct opponent every game and kicking over twice as many goals doesn’t make much sense. Greene actually kicks bags of goals.
It’s also like comparing his extra goals to say Oliver but ignoring Oliver also has four times more RB 50’s and Petracca took almost 20 more marks inside 50 showing their roles are completely different. Now I think Petracca’s role is probably more important but I also think kicking 24 goals in the H&A season isn’t that extreme considering that role. It’s also not a common theme over his career so it’s hard to know if it’s going to be replicated.

 

[Trav 20]

I’m not sure we really have one but I think Cripps tried that this season because of injury.
Parker and Zorko are pretty good examples. Statistically in the past they have had pretty similar seasons yet never even been in the discussion as best in the league. Petracca is in a group of about 5 imo who could all lay claim to it.

Of course they are highly valued because it’s a brilliant trait that is relatively rare. What I’m saying is comparing his goal kicking to someone like Greene who has a direct opponent every game and kicking over twice as many goals doesn’t make much sense. Greene actually kicks bags of goals.
It’s also like comparing his extra goals to say Oliver but ignoring Oliver also has four times more RB 50’s and Petracca took almost 20 more marks inside 50 showing their roles are completely different. Now I think Petracca’s role is probably more important but I also think kicking 24 goals in the H&A season isn’t that extreme considering that role. It’s also not a common theme over his career so it’s hard to know if it’s going to be replicated.

The only point I'm making is about value, as in team roles.

We'll agree to differ on the value of Bontempelli and Petracca's goals. 24 in the H&A to Petracca and 26 to Bontempelli are extremely valuable and help elevate them to the status they're both given.

To have 29 goals from an inside mid who's also top 3 in the competition for contested possessions is gold.

It's no coincidence both Melbourne and Footscray played off in the grand final.