Rumour Bluemour Discussion thread

[The_Wookie]

That line is said ad nauseum on here, but he's had his fair share of gains in a team that has gone backwards from 5th in 2011 to bottom of the ladder now. If you say this blame rests entirely on the forward/defensive assistant coach, then he should be the one getting the sack....not Mick.

he's had gains has he? Which ones exactly.Id love some examples of these magical gains you speak of. Barker becoming coach might be the final straw for me.

 

[Wickzki]

he's had gains has he? Which ones exactly.Id love some examples of these magical gains you speak of. Barker becoming coach might be the final straw for me.

I hate to defend him but Sam Rowe was a success down back last year.

 

[GT619]

I hate to defend him but Sam Rowe was a success down back last year.

What's happened to rowe this year. But than again he's not alone

 

[happydude]

I hate to defend him but Sam Rowe was a success down back last year.

After the testicular cancer I think this speaks more volume of Rowe's character than Barker's coaching ability

 

[slashin_velvet]

he's had gains has he? Which ones exactly.Id love some examples of these magical gains you speak of. Barker becoming coach might be the final straw for me.

In defense, he turned Rowe from a very average forward, to a competent KPD. Whilst I would agree that his form this year is down, I'd largely blame that on personnel issues that are out of his control.....particularly injuries to Jamo. The match selection committee also doesn't seem to be helping with forcing White to play KPD against Clark/Hawkins. Last year Rowe credited his mentor Jamo, and Barker for his improvement.

Yarran had a turnaround year last year and credited Mick and Barker for his success.

Eddie Betts credited success to Barker.

In his first year as forward line coach he had 3 players in the top 13 in the coleman (a combined 154 goals) and Walker was the tallest. Our highest tall goalscorer was Waite with 16. He didnt have tall timber to work with, but was able to structure the lines in a way that worked.

He kept our ability to Mark inside 50 at no worse than 4th in the league (2nd for two years, and 4th in his third year) even though our inside 50s in total were dropping away each year, and circa 8th in his second 2 seasons as forward coach.

His worst performance as forward line coach came in 2013 with Malthouses bomb it in long strategy, which still inst paying dividends with Green as coach.

Can I counter this with someone pointing out exactly what he has done specifically that has been sooo poor? He's a whipping boy, but its always (he destroyed our forward line, and now his destroying the defense).....but with no reference to the fact that the team itself has slid from 5th to bottom of the ladder since he's been at the club. If Barker is the problem......why all the talk of sacking Malthouse.

 

[teknodeejay]

Is it just me or is Trigg the Tassie Devil of CEOs? Can't keep his mouth shut and every time he opens it you think "my god, you're a qualified CEO of an organisation?"

I've interacted with a fair few at that level and his behaviour is eye opening to put it nicely.

 

[The_Wookie]

In defense, he turned Rowe from a very average forward, to a competent KPD. Whilst I would agree that his form this year is down, I'd largely blame that on personnel issues that are out of his control.....particularly injuries to Jamo. The match selection committee also doesn't seem to be helping with forcing White to play KPD against Clark/Hawkins. Last year Rowe credited his mentor Jamo, and Barker for his improvement.

Yarran had a turnaround year last year and credited Mick and Barker for his success.

Eddie Betts credited success to Barker.

In his first year as forward line coach he had 3 players in the top 13 in the coleman (a combined 154 goals) and Walker was the tallest. Our highest tall goalscorer was Waite with 16. He didnt have tall timber to work with, but was able to structure the lines in a way that worked.

He kept our ability to Mark inside 50 at no worse than 4th in the league (2nd for two years, and 4th in his third year) even though our inside 50s in total were dropping away each year, and circa 8th in his second 2 seasons as forward coach.

His worst performance as forward line coach came in 2013 with Malthouses bomb it in long strategy, which still inst paying dividends with Green as coach.

Can I counter this with someone pointing out exactly what he has done specifically that has been sooo poor? He's a whipping boy, but its always (he destroyed our forward line, and now his destroying the defense).....but with no reference to the fact that the team itself has slid from 5th to bottom of the ladder since he's been at the club. If Barker is the problem......why all the talk of sacking Malthouse.

Id love to see some of this "credit to barker". because its certainly not been in anything ive seen or read.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Id love to see some of this "credit to barker". because its certainly not been in anything ive seen or read.

If I must, but hopefully you will respond with all of his specific failings as a coach that have nothing to do with personnel available, injuries or general gameplan that is out of his control:

Yarran: "Yarran praised Malthouse and back-line coach John Barker for their guidance."
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...nited-against-collingwood-20140625-zsllq.html

Betts: "He revealed a chat to Ratten and forward coach John Barker on Wednesday helped renew his confidence following a lean start to the season." (He finished as our 2nd highest goalscorer this year behind Walker - circa 10th in the Coleman)
http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/af...ach-brett-ratten/story-e6frg1xu-1226047546970

Rowe: "(Jamo's) played his whole career down back and he's a very good defender. I work with him pretty closely and with JB (John Barker) - with all the coaches really."
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2014-05-26/rowe-we-stood-up

I say we give him a chance. Seems well liked. Has stated repeatedly that we need to play a more attacking brand of football (where Malthouses plan revolves around tight defence). He will only be a caretaker, and we cant be much worse than our current performances.

 

[Weiterbot23]

How can we as simple supporters really understand the value of an assistant coach? I've always just assumed barker is no good because he was not a good a player but that's got little to do with how he's going as a coach.


But Who do we blame this season on then?


Mick? Who's been one of the most successful coaches in different situations?

The assistants? who we can't really know what their influence has been?

The players?

The board?

The old board?

Rodgers?

Hughes?

Player development?

The power brokers?

The lack of memberships and attendance from us, the supporters?

 

[The_Wookie]

Doesnt explain Hampson complete failure as a tall forward under his tutelage, our inability to work a proper forward line for the last 4 years without a "kick it long and hope they run onto it" plan which was the entirety of 2011, hasnt worked as a forward line since Walker was moved out of it. But I mean its great that the little guys are doing so well. and all.

I dont just blame Mick, I blame the entire support staff. Our players are sloppy, unskilled,, lazy and not developing as well as recruits at other clubs. Where are the support staff in this? Malthouse gets in the gun because he's the face of the club, Barker and the back seat boys go unscathed. Theres plenty of praise for malthouse out there amongst the players too.

 

[Gavstar]

Seriously individuals playing well on the back line or forward line is all well and good.

Where is the system and structure? Why do our players continually compete with each other for the mark, why don't they talk, why is there no system from kick ins besides kick it to the boundary line.

That's right its cr*p.

Barker may be OK as an interim coach long term I think not.

 

[teknodeejay]

I've always just assumed barker is no good because he was not a good a player

That's a little unfair. Was very good between 2000-2002.

He also belted Adam McPhee in "that match" and got away with it.

 

[Dramoth]

I hate to defend him but Sam Rowe was a success down back last year.

If I remember rightly, Sam spent the games he was playing in the VFL in 2013 playing in defence? And playing as a forward in the seniors... all 10 games of them.

Then in 2014, we slotted him in down back and he had a typical first year in defence success story. Then this year, he seems to have forgotten all he learnt last year and has gone backwards.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Doesnt explain Hampson complete failure as a tall forward under his tutelage, our inability to work a proper forward line for the last 4 years without a "kick it long and hope they run onto it" plan which was the entirety of 2011, hasnt worked as a forward line since Walker was moved out of it. But I mean its great that the little guys are doing so well. and all.

I dont just blame Mick, I blame the entire support staff. Our players are sloppy, unskilled,, lazy and not developing as well as recruits at other clubs. Where are the support staff in this? Malthouse gets in the gun because he's the face of the club, Barker and the back seat boys go unscathed. Theres plenty of praise for malthouse out there amongst the players too.

Because we all know how much of a great success Hampson has been under other coaches at a different club. I'm sure the club is kicking themselves after only getting a pick in the 30's for such a superstar that Barker was responsible for destroying.

 

[teknodeejay]

Yeah Hampson started okay with them but cannot get a sniff ahead of Maric and Griffiths.

The great equation of whether should have kept him over Warnock exists. I would vote keep Hampson personally but it wouldn't necessarily have us in a better place than we are at the minute.

 

[The_Wookie]

Because we all know how much of a great success Hampson has been under other coaches at a different club. I'm sure the club is kicking themselves after only getting a pick in the 30's for such a superstar that Barker was responsible for destroying.

I could not give a crap what he is doing elsewhere. I cared about him when he was a carlton player who looked for all the world like he'd never been coached to do anything in his life.

 

[Dramoth]

If I must, but hopefully you will respond with all of his specific failings as a coach that have nothing to do with personnel available, injuries or general gameplan that is out of his control:

Yarran: "Yarran praised Malthouse and back-line coach John Barker for their guidance."
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...nited-against-collingwood-20140625-zsllq.html

Betts: "He revealed a chat to Ratten and forward coach John Barker on Wednesday helped renew his confidence following a lean start to the season." (He finished as our 2nd highest goalscorer this year behind Walker - circa 10th in the Coleman)
http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/af...ach-brett-ratten/story-e6frg1xu-1226047546970

Rowe: "(Jamo's) played his whole career down back and he's a very good defender. I work with him pretty closely and with JB (John Barker) - with all the coaches really."
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2014-05-26/rowe-we-stood-up

I say we give him a chance. Seems well liked. Has stated repeatedly that we need to play a more attacking brand of football (where Malthouses plan revolves around tight defence). He will only be a caretaker, and we cant be much worse than our current performances.

Yarran... by the time that Barker was moved into the backline, he had been playing there under the guidance of Gavin Brown for a year or two. And Yarran with all his skill and flair could be coached by a monkey and still put in the same efforts.

Betts... had a couple of years with Matty Lappin as his forwards coach and had a stellar year in 2011. Barker would have really had minimal contact with Betts over the preseason that year and Eddie would have been running on memory from his training with Matty.

Rowe was working with the VFL defensive coach for the Bullants in 2013 and with Gavin Brown. Last year he would have been working with Barker and Jamo... and I think that he would have been getting more out of Jamo than out of Barker really.

The proof really is in the development of new players under Barkers watch. Can you please tell me one success story of a new draftee that was being looked after by Barker who has gone on to become a success at the club? The established players don't count for the sake of the story really because they would have had a couple of different line coaches over the years.

 

[teknodeejay]

If we're talking about youth development, how does Barker get labelled the evil one and Matthew Capuano and Michael Osborne escape scrutiny? They are the development coaches after all.

 

[passmark]

**** development.

Rumours or GTFO!!!!!!!!!

 

[Azul]

The great equation of whether should have kept him over Warnock exists. I would vote keep Hampson personally but it wouldn't necessarily have us in a better place than we are at the minute.

The decision was made to put a ruckman on the table. Richmond offered something. Whether anyone offered anything comparable for Warnock, I'll leave as a homework exercise.

No one could forsee the demise of Kreuzer. Nevertheless, we had 5 drafts between 2010-2014 to rookie a teenage ruckman after both Jacobs and Hampson left. We didn't.

 

[slashin_velvet]

The proof really is in the development of new players under Barkers watch. Can you please tell me one success story of a new draftee that was being looked after by Barker who has gone on to become a success at the club? The established players don't count for the sake of the story really because they would have had a couple of different line coaches over the years.

In terms of new draftees under his watch - he hasnt had heaps of defensive talent brought into the club in the last 2 years, however Fields looks to be developing quite well (which would definately be due to the VFL coach and have nothing to do with Barker). Sheehan and Byrne both look like talents off the half back (which must definately be credited to their original gaelic coaches in Ireland). Giles was looking like developing well until crueled by continual injury setbacks (probably because Barker was overworking his running at training). I actually like Holmans game off half back myself and hope he gets a better chance to prove it in the seniors than a 100pt thrashing at the hands of port. Dick showed good signs last week until the MC cut him from the squad, and Simon White firmed into best 22 last season - and was even rotated through the middle in the preseason with some success.

Barker also wasnt dealt the greatest hand in terms of talent to develop after the club delisted guys like Laidler (Mick wanted him to play as a forward), and players like Duigan and Scotland retired either before or during the season. Add to this fools like Bootsma who the club could never control. He also suffered at the hands of Walkers knee injury - which Walker still hasnt gotten over after being elite the season prior.

Regardless in the clubs B&F last year the defense contributed more players than any other line - Simpson 3rd, Yarran 4th, Rowe 5th, Jamo 6th, Docherty 9th. (Im counting Everitt (7th) as a midfielder)

For all your earlier points, you're basically saying - all the gains werent his (even though the players themselves have credited him amongst others), but all the failings were purely Barkers fault. If this is a genuine belief, then I don't think you're approaching it rationally, and will end the discussion here.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Juddy learning the chicken wing and hodge already to elbow Ball

And Ball just happy to be there.

 

[mickelboy182]

The fact is arguing over who is directly responsible is fruitless, none of us could possibly know.

 

[Jimmae]

Barker seems to have a knack for developing contested marking techniques, but that's about it. His structures are awful, though he seems to be getting more creative if the kickouts are anything to go by.

 

[Dramoth]

In terms of new draftees under his watch - he hasnt had heaps of defensive talent brought into the club in the last 2 years, however Fields looks to be developing quite well (which would definately be due to the VFL coach and have nothing to do with Barker). Sheehan and Byrne both look like talents off the half back (which must definately be credited to their original gaelic coaches in Ireland). Giles was looking like developing well until crueled by continual injury setbacks (probably because Barker was overworking his running at training). I actually like Holmans game off half back myself and hope he gets a better chance to prove it in the seniors than a 100pt thrashing at the hands of port. Dick showed good signs last week until the MC cut him from the squad, and Simon White firmed into best 22 last season - and was even rotated through the middle in the preseason with some success.

Barker also wasnt dealt the greatest hand in terms of talent to develop after the club delisted guys like Laidler (Mick wanted him to play as a forward), and players like Duigan and Scotland retired either before or during the season. Add to this fools like Bootsma who the club could never control. He also suffered at the hands of Walkers knee injury - which Walker still hasnt gotten over after being elite the season prior.

Regardless in the clubs B&F last year the defense contributed more players than any other line - Simpson 3rd, Yarran 4th, Rowe 5th, Jamo 6th, Docherty 9th. (Im counting Everitt (7th) as a midfielder)

For all your earlier points, you're basically saying - all the gains werent his (even though the players themselves have credited him amongst others), but all the failings were purely Barkers fault. If this is a genuine belief, then I don't think you're approaching it rationally, and will end the discussion here.

Rational discussion. All the players you are talking about were mature players. A couple of guys have started to come good under his watch... but again, they have spent a lot of time working, as you noted, with the VFL development coaches rather than the senior coaches.

When he was in the forward line as the coach, he had some talent come in... who all went backwards. I have heard people saying that Mitchell had attitude problems and couldnt adapt to the pace at AFL level. We had a number of guys who had been on the list for a number of years who appeared to stagnate under Barkers tutelage or go backwards.

Casboult is perhaps the prime example... people joke, when I supple his stats from his TAC year, that he also kicked about 150 OOTF... if he was kicking OOTF, he would also have kicked a lot more than the 14 points he kicked that year. He had a couple of knee injuries in his first couple of years. He was under the tutelage of Lappin for his first year on the list and then Barker came in and he appeared to go backwards. Yes he managed a couple of bags over the years... but every man and his dog has been farting about with his run in and I think that they were doing this on the word of the sports scientists to alleviate pressure on his knees. But while doing this, his ball drop got higher, they put a curve into his run up and he went backwards. 2 weeks with Rocca and suddenly a lot of the problems with his kicking has gone.

Rowe was picked up at the 2011 draft. He spent 2012 out with testicular cancer. He played 10 games in 2013 for a return of 9 goals. He came to us a much better forward than that return. A lot of people claimed, reasonably rightly, that he was suffering from the after-effects of the chemo. But he still should have been a better player than what he was in 2013.

Giles hasnt had continuous injury setbacks. He has had one injury... a fracture to the navicular bone in his foot and wore a moon boot for 8 months and only got it off in Feb this year.

Here are the facts... in his first year at the club, he took over from Matty Lappin as the forwards coach and inherited a stable well drilled forward line and Walker who had just been moved there that year. 2011 was a good year for our forward line, but they would have still been running around pumped up by Matty Lappins training regimes. Barker wouldnt have had to do much... just keep working them.

2012... the club was stricken with injuries and everything went pear shaped. However... players weren't developing. They weren't coming on as expected and experienced players were just stagnating. Any coach worth his salt will keep the experienced players at their peak while bringing the junior players up.

2013... a new senior coach and Barker was on trial in the forward line... he apparently failed the Mick test because he was moved to the defensive line for 2014 as Gavin Browns replacement... presumably because as a forward he might be able to coach the players in how to "read the forwards" and lead them to the ball.

As for crediting the coach... how many people do you know are going to stand up on live TV and credit the previous coach for them getting where they are now? Even if you think that the current coach is a fool, you are going to credit them with doing some good work with you even if you think the opposite.

Not all the failings are Barkers fault... however, in his tenure at the club, things havent improved in a measurable significant manner and that can be laid at his feet.