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Opinion Butcher

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We could bring shaw in for the same return. And I think he has just as much upside if not more than butch.
 
Trying to claim that dropping Butcher after a 1 kick performance last week, and a 2 handball, 0 mark, 0 kick, 0% disposal efficiency game this week is 'shunting him out at every opportunity' is ridiculous. You need to earn a game. The last two weeks, Butcher hasn't. Simple as that. How many games where he has literally zero impact do we persist until he needs to earn a spot?
 

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Macca19 said:
Trying to claim that dropping Butcher after a 1 kick performance last week, and a 2 handball, 0 mark, 0 kick, 0% disposal efficiency game this week is 'shunting him out at every opportunity' is ridiculous. You need to earn a game. The last two weeks, Butcher hasn't. Simple as that. How many games where he has literally zero impact do we persist until he needs to earn a spot?
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While I don't disagree with the sentiment, who is our alternative at the moment? Shaw? Have either of Shaw or Stewart been carving the SANFL?
 
El_Scorcho said:
Westhoff is at his best when he's off the leash, and adds more to the side in that role.

Daniel Stewart will not give us more, has not given us more, has not shown anything to say that he would give us more in any of his opportunities. He averages less goals per game, and when people are suggesting Butch should be dropped because of lack of effort or impact, it's absolutely laughable that they'd suggest Daniel Stewart as his replacement, unless something pretty major has changed about the way Stewart goes about it.
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John Butcher actaully got 6 disposals last week, I thought it was literally 1 or 3. This week he got 2 handballs. Either way I don't think he should be in the side.

Daniel Stewart has better SANFL form over the journey, but is very incosistent even at that level. This year he has played one game, where he got 4 disposals and was subbed off. I don't think we have seen the best that Stewart has to offer at AFL level yet, which is an important thing to consider. Its very unlikely he will come in, but as it stands he probably won't give less than what Butcher has given in the last two weeks, he could give more if he manages to finally put it together, and while Butcher could just as easily "put it together" I don't think his form warrants a spot in the side, and not ahead of Daniel Stewart. Neither should play, but if one must, I'd still choose Stewart despite getting the possesion count wrong for Butcher last week.

The reasons for this are that 1. I believe Stewart can produce at AFL level if he works hard, and his team mates bring him into the game. and 2. Butcher's set shot is a ****ing coinflip from 10 metres out, and pretty much all he does is have shots on goal.

Of course, itisnt2hard 's idea to move him away from the goals isn't bad either.

As for what you said about Westhoff, I completely agree, but I'd rather have Monfries, Gray, Wingard, Boak, O'Shea, Brad Ebert, Broadbent, Wines, or Hartlett at full forward than Butcher while Westhoff roams free.
 
BornPort said:
Well if he continues it will be the biggest gold pass of all time. Would get more from a cardboard cut-out.
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reminds me of Weekend at Bernies at present. ;) Frustrating thing is the bloke can play. Not as, never has been a key forward unless dominating against poorer opposition . Even in his junior years he had an influence playing the Shultz role further up the ground. Mind blowing that posters are still defending his selection in the forward line. FFS.
 
PAFC United said:
Ridiculous comment. It wasnt about being lucky, it's about not having a big useless baffoon gettin in the was constantly
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That was absolutely nothing to do with why Gus wasn't getting a lot of the ball early on.

Our forward entry improved markedly in the second half.
 
itisnt2hard said:
reminds me of Weekend at Bernies at present. ;) Frustrating thing is the bloke can play. Not as, never has been a key forward unless dominating against poorer opposition . Even in his junior years he had an influence playing the Shultz role further up the ground. Mind blowing that posters are still defending his selection in the forward line. FFS.
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Its all because of those few marks and goals he got in his second year. Everyone got really hyped about him at that time, including me, but since then it has became clear it was more a fluke than anything that he managed not only to nail that many marks close to goal, but to not send half of them out on the full as well.
 
El_Scorcho said:
While I don't disagree with the sentiment, who is our alternative at the moment? Shaw? Have either of Shaw or Stewart been carving the SANFL?
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Stewart kicked 3 today. Salter might be worth a go. Neither will be here next year but does that matter? Im not sure it does. I guess we need to work out:

a) Do we want to play finals this year, or are we just about player development
b) Is Butcher the best of the forward options for that 3rd forward spot right now
c) Is playing Butcher when he cant get the ball doing more harm than good to him personally?

Sometimes you need to go back to go forward. He looks absolutely shot of any confidence. His arms flail all over the shop when going for a mark. He literally doesn't lead. At all. He gives us nothing outside the forward 50 as a lead up target. If he does happen to fluke a mark hes almost certain to kick the ball with his knee. I don't think its talent. I just think hes mentally done, right now.

Stewart clearly wont be here next year but yes, I'd rather we play Stewart next week.
 

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Macca19 said:
Trying to claim that dropping Butcher after a 1 kick performance last week, and a 2 handball, 0 mark, 0 kick, 0% disposal efficiency game this week is 'shunting him out at every opportunity' is ridiculous. You need to earn a game. The last two weeks, Butcher hasn't. Simple as that. How many games where he has literally zero impact do we persist until he needs to earn a spot?
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This.you cant just keep putting on the jumper and giving nothing
 
Macca19 said:
Stewart kicked 3 today. Salter might be worth a go. Neither will be here next year but does that matter? Im not sure it does. I guess we need to work out:

a) Do we want to play finals this year, or are we just about player development
b) Is Butcher the best of the forward options for that 3rd forward spot right now
c) Is playing Butcher when he cant get the ball doing more harm than good to him personally?

Sometimes you need to go back to go forward. He looks absolutely shot of any confidence. His arms flail all over the shop when going for a mark. He literally doesn't lead. At all. He gives us nothing outside the forward 50 as a lead up target. If he does happen to fluke a mark hes almost certain to kick the ball with his knee. I don't think its talent. I just think hes mentally done, right now.

Stewart clearly wont be here next year but yes, I'd rather we play Stewart next week.
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My vote is A. Like every club at any level, i wanna play finals.
 
Not so long ago people wanted Lobbe to be dropped with some even suggesting that he would never come good.
He is a big bloke, he got injured and took some time to show his 2011 form again. The point is that he did show good form at AFL level prior to getting injured.
Butcher is in the same boat and unlike some of the names mentioned Butcher has shown good form at AFL level. He will come good just like Lobbe has but we need to have some patience in the meantime.
 
I'm quite happy to let Butcher play out the season. He obviously has mental & confidence issues in his body/form/future. He has skills and ability... get the mind right and we'll see those. If he is to go out... DO NOT bring in D. Stewart... he's been less productive, had twice as many chances and is 2 years older. Bring in Salter as a forward IMO he has a killer leg on him.
 

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El_Scorcho said:
I really wish Butch was at a more competitive SANFL club. I'd be more happy to see him play a few confidence builders in the snaffle if I had any confidence in the Magpies being able to get the ball to him on a regular basis.
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This might sound harsh, but he should learn to get his own ball, and to demand the ball, rather than have everyone look after him because he is young and "the future". He should be able to dominate the SANFL regardless of any delivery issues. What do you think would happen if a 22 year old Warren Tredrea was playing for the magpies? I think he'd have a bit more impact personally ;)

If you can't do anything under difficult circumstances, whats the point?
 
*PAF said:
Not so long ago people wanted Lobbe to be dropped with some even suggesting that he would never come good.
He is a big bloke, he got injured and took some time to show his 2011 form again. The point is that he did show good form at AFL level prior to getting injured.
Butcher is in the same boat and unlike some of the names mentioned Butcher has shown good form at AFL level. He will come good just like Lobbe has but we need to have some patience in the meantime.
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The key word here PAF is co-ordination. You either have it or you dont.
 
Lurk3r said:
This might sound harsh, but he should learn to get his own ball, and to demand the ball, rather than have everyone look after him because he is young and "the future". He should be able to dominate the SANFL regardless of any delivery issues. What do you think would happen if a 22 year old Warren Tredrea was playing for the magpies? I think he'd have a bit more impact personally ;)

If you can't do anything under difficult circumstances, whats the point?
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See the Boak/Selwood thread for evidence of why having performing players around you does wonders for your performances, development and confidence.

If we're sending Butcher back to the SANFL to get some confidence, he'd be better off playing AFL.

If we're picking Daniel Stewart, we'd be better off keeping Butcher, who does as much offensively but runs harder on defence, and has a heap more upside.

Butcher might go out this week, but he'll come good if we continue to put time into him.
 
His confidence is totally shot and continuing to play him could cause more harm than good. I agree the cupboard is bare and no one is knocking down the door to replace him as a KPF. I would give Salter a final chance to see what he's got at AFL level - we wouldn't lose anything by trying given Butcher's last two weeks, and he could do a Lewis Johnston.
 
El_Scorcho said:
See the Boak/Selwood thread for evidence of why having performing players around you does wonders for your performances, development and confidence.

If we're sending Butcher back to the SANFL to get some confidence, he'd be better off playing AFL.

If we're picking Daniel Stewart, we'd be better off keeping Butcher, who does as much offensively but runs harder on defence, and has a heap more upside.

Butcher might go out this week, but he'll come good if we continue to put time into him.
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The Boak/selwood thread offers nothing more than other posters thoughts. it would hardly stand up in court as evidence. Nothing personal EL but pretty sure we have seen enough over the last four plus weeks. I dont know what else to say.
 
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