Opinion Butcher

[Power Raid]

and Peter Daicos

 

[Power Raid]

The only way we are going to learn is playing him week in, week out. Many KPF played as much as possible in their early seasons, despite their ups and their downs, well in to the teens to maximum 22 games a year. Butcher has never had more than 8 total in a season. Calls that we've already seen enough are ridiculous

yep

Hawkins and Cloke were both slow to develop. Even our Westhoff took a long time.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Have you guys saying that playing in defence would boost his confidence ever actually played in defence? Nothing is worse for your confidence than having goals scored on you.

 

[Power Raid]

Have you guys saying that playing in defence would boost his confidence ever actually played in defence? Nothing is worse for your confidence than having goals scored on you.

All players have to have a defensive side to their game. This will give him the opportunity to refine those skills and see what his "forward" peers are doing first hand.

 

[PepeSilvia]

Have you guys saying that playing in defence would boost his confidence ever actually played in defence? Nothing is worse for your confidence than having goals scored on you.

I genuinely couldn't agree more. I played full back for 4 years prior to this season (decided I didn't want to play this year as I enjoy watching more than playing) and the few times that I played really poorly, I was down on myself for weeks. In comparison to playing poorly up forward, it's far worse.

 

[ploppy]

I dont see how that would work though.....

If I was hired for a particular job and got shifted "sideways" it wouldnt build my confidence

Moving Butch would work form many reasons. Its easier to be a backman for starters if your fast and can punch people in the back of the head you are half way there. Mostly it would teach him to play the game he isnt learning anything at the moment with the pressure of being a forward he is running around not getting the ball. As a defender he wont have someone shadowing him and spoiling every attempt he can use his judgement and athletism to get the ball and then learn to use it. That will build confidence then he can try up forward again..but as a key forward he is behind shultz,westhoff,redden,lobbe and probably trengove and bobby carlisle.

 

[PepeSilvia]

Moving Butch would work form many reasons. Its easier to be a backman for starters if your fast and can punch people in the back of the head you are half way there. Mostly it would teach him to play the game he isnt learning anything at the moment with the pressure of being a forward he is running around not getting the ball. As a defender he wont have someone shadowing him and spoiling every attempt he can use his judgement and athletism to get the ball and then learn to use it. That will build confidence then he can try up forward again..but as a key forward he is behind shultz,westhoff,redden,lobbe and probably trengove and bobby carlisle.

Unless you're playing on a genuinely decent forward...

Also, if you get several goals kicked on you in a close loss, it's extremely easy to blame yourself for the loss.

 

[Adam Marrett23]

I really want Butch to succeed, he's got a lot of raw talent as a key forward and that doesn't fall off trees.As for moving him down back,a no for me.The kid is a forward, we don't need more key backs we are well and truly covered there with the age group of what we have.He's not got the natural gifts IMO that Chad Cornes had to make the switch with the reading of the play etc plus that ability Chad had can't be taught.Butch has to be made to earn his game's through the Magpies, bad luck if he doesn't play well in the SANFL he has to learn to.He has a lot of learning ahead of him maybe that's a start for him.He's only 21 and strikes me that he isn't used to his body yet, or still doesn't trust his body, as for a younger player can take time unlike a older player.I'm just going to give Butch time and hope he pans out for us I still feel he will.

 

[faquito]

The only time I want butch in defence is in full speed training drills shadowing Schulz to learn his running patterns and tactics.

 

[Spadge]

i really really want Butch to make it
im clinging to the hope that he can turn it around and become a gun goal kicking forward for us
i creamed over him as much as all of us when he "burst onto the scene" back in 2011

That was 3 years ago

5 goals against Glenelg is nothing to get excited about. He was pantsed in the first half and kicked some goals when we were 100+ points up including a couple of gimmes in the goal square.

It pains me to say it but im almost to the point of giving up on him. He will go the way of Daniel Stewart i fear

As for Trade value... i reckon he'd be around the mark of what Freo paid for Gumbleton. His goalkicking has become the joke of the competition, and he doesnt get the ball enough
We wont trade him... luckily for Butch, we have no other key forwards as a backup to Schulz (Westy is far too valuable utility to play exclusively as a key forward and Shaw/Harvey arent going to play AFL anytime soon).

Ive said it a few times now, but we desperately need to go out and get ourselves a decent key forward.. now is the time we become pro-active, spend up and lure someone over now our club is a viable and attractive option. Schulz is 29 and he isnt superman. If he goes down we are screwed. Yes we have a couple of developing kids (Shaw and Harvey who are nowhere near ready for AFL football) who may or may not be ok.. but we need a "plug and play" key forward.. one we know will slot into our team and instantly make us better

I still feel its the only area of our team that is severely deficient. I dont think Butcher is our answer

 

[edgie]

Have you guys saying that playing in defence would boost his confidence ever actually played in defence? Nothing is worse for your confidence than having goals scored on you.

Nothing can give it a boost more than completely blanketing your man. As a forward, it's your job to score days, even getting 2 or 3 isn't a big confidence booster. It is simply meeting requirement. Playing defence and destroying your opponent and setting up attacks can really give a get, so to speak. Yes I do speak from personal experience/thoughts. Yeah having goals kicked on you is no good, but no worse than dropping marks or missing goals.

 

[edgie]

yep

Hawkins and Cloke were both slow to develop. Even our Westhoff took a long time.

Hawkins took an eternity it felt like, but when did he finally "click"? In a finals campaign. Then played his best ever game to that point, in a Grand Final. Not to mention bagging 2 in an earlier Grand Final. Oh, but did you ever hear Geelong all like "we are heading for top 4 we can't afford to carry this spud!" "no time for development we are opening a premiership window", what a load of wank. Absolute ****ing garbage.

 

[StrappingTape]

and Hawkins went through the same scrutiny about not being able to kick straight to save his life. He also had a massive patch where he was spraying them all over the shop.

 

[Rankor]

If butch keeps this form up I can see my buddy Mitch getting a game against a lower team later this season.

Would love to see Harvey have a 2 1/2 quarter game then subbed for a running player.

I do hope butch hits some form soon because if he doesn't he won't be on the list at the end of 2015.

Maybe a run higher up the ground isn't such a bad idea to get his hands on the ball. Teach him to hunt and run.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

Moving Butch would work form many reasons. Its easier to be a backman for starters if your fast and can punch people in the back of the head you are half way there. Mostly it would teach him to play the game he isnt learning anything at the moment with the pressure of being a forward he is running around not getting the ball. As a defender he wont have someone shadowing him and spoiling every attempt he can use his judgement and athletism to get the ball and then learn to use it. That will build confidence then he can try up forward again..but as a key forward he is behind shultz,westhoff,redden,lobbe and probably trengove and bobby carlisle.

You are assuming he will do ok as a backmen....imagine if he has scores kicked on him.....his confidence shot at the moment as a fwd if it happens when he is down back he may never recover

 

[1954]

I can't see John Butcher being torn a new one by being tried at chb in the SANFL, very few chf kick a lot of goals in that comp anyway.

The key is to get his confidence up by giving him the freedom to attack the ball front on, and Budhha may have telegraphed his intentions with the way Butch was used for parts of the game against the eagles anyway.

Hopefully the Maggies will get on top of westies at Alberton on saturday and Butch will get plenty of opportunities to score a bag of goals.
But, it has to be taken into account that he had more than a dozen chances on the lead against the gay bays and muffed virtually all of them, by leading too early and being forced to double back, or too late, and too hard and ran under the ball.

As a regular attendee of Alberton games, I can still clearly recall Butch being so static in some games last season ( he just stood outside the square ), the then coach moved him to wide half forward, and made stiffy Johncock the go to forward, all 178 cm of him.

 

[Killer Power]

Very interesting the way Butch was used on the weekend and with our new structure can only assume it was in conjunction with the AFL coaching team. Imagine the uproar on here if Butch had been played down back by another SANFL club under the old system!

 

[bomberclifford]

Maybe they want Butch to be stretched and stressed, dealing with different circumstances. Baptism of Fire type thinking.

 

[Phhht]

....
But, it has to be taken into account that he had more than a dozen chances on the lead against the gay bays and muffed virtually all of them, by leading too early and being forced to double back, or too late, and too hard and ran under the ball.....

So if he had lead sensibly was he in a position of taking the marks? If he was then you'd think it would be easier to get him to work on leading patterns/timing at training than getting him to 'learn' from SANFL CHFs.

I'm not sure on this one. I still feel we need to persist with Butch as a KPF rather than moving him to defense. For me its a risk v reward thing and lets be honest, we cant really afford for Butch to not develop into a tall forward of some sort of quality at the moment.

Butch has lost his ability to 'create the play'. He is reactive rather than proactive. Its why we often see him out of position, not attacking marks and often being the 'crumber' at the back of packs.

Even though he may have fluffed the leads against the bays, I'd take the positive view that at least he was being proactive and trying to create the play.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

You had to be at the game to appreciate that apart from some chases and tackles how ineffective Butch was as a key forward in that game. It would have been criminal to leave him in the forward line - he wasn't even getting near contests. Buddha threw him loose down back and into the ruck just so he could get his hands on the ball and he still only finished with 3 touches.

Killer Power there would have been outrage if he had been at another sanfl club but having been there and seen firsthand how Butch was playing I could only support Hocking's moves.

In the old days you could clear out the forward 50 and have him the only go to player and try to build some confidence. But opposition coaches and players these days are very good at getting players back into empty space and he would wind up double and triple teamed.

 

[ROBBBO]

3 touches tells me he didn't want it. Sometimes when you a young player a few demons get into the head.

Is he really only 21 ?

 

[Phhht]

Turns 23 in July. Younger than both Pittard and Moore (same draft) and less games. He still has time IMO.

 

[Peck]

Turns 23 in July. Younger than both Pittard and Moore (same draft) and less games. He still has time IMO.

I suspect by next year we will at least have someone else who can play a key position role for us up forward. At that point Butcher's spot on the list gets pretty shaky if he hasn't improved. I don't know if Harvey or Mason Shaw will be good enough to push him out by the end of this year, or even next year. But you would think Redden would be a chance to replace him this year when he comes back from injury.

 

[1954]

Turns 23 in July. Younger than both Pittard and Moore (same draft) and less games. He still has time IMO.

There is no doubt time is on his side ( at least from an age perspective ), but I believe that unless the Power is cruelled by injuries to the likes of Schulz and Westhoff, we won't see Butch back in AFL action anytime soon.

I take your point that he lead ( presented ) numerous times against the bays at Alberton, as opposed to many games last season, where after a few leads ( usually early in the game ) he tended to become static and stand at the point of the goal square.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned here was that he was taken from the ground at about the 5 minute mark of the 1st qtr at Alberton for what appeared to be a chat on the phone with the coach.
I didn't see him sit down, and he was back on the field within a few minutes.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I wandered by Alberton this morning and it looks like Butch has decided to address the real problem head on and has had a decent haircut. Now he looks like a footballer. Josh Carr was chatting with Butch and Robbie Gray. Wingard, Youngy and a few others were pinging shots at goal.

Mason Shaw still has plaster on his wrist but looked to really be slamming his hands on the ball so he must be confident the healing is going well.