Opinion Butcher

[Power Pete]

The few posters on here who are still saying that Harvey is playing better than Butcher are the absolutely perfect example of Butcher being a victim of being held to a higher standard than everybody else by some people on this board. Butcher has kicked 18 goals in 6 games. Harvey has kicked 13 in 7. Butcher had 8 marks, 5 tackles and 3 goals yesterday, Harvey barely touched the ball and went scoreless. In no way, shape or form is Harvey currently playing better than Butcher. He might be performing better compared to expectations than Butcher, but that's only because Butcher's expectations are so much higher.

Butcher was drafted from the Gippsland Power with pick 8 in the 2009 National Draft and since then has played just 23 games. If you check the goals kicked by Butchy for the Magpies you'll find most are kicked in the last quarter when the game was over... junk time as some say.

Don't get me wrong, i love to see him playing in the big league but his kicking skills and hand to leg coordination are not up to speed. On the other hand i see a lot more uplift in Harvey and his goal kicking style is good. Give Harvey the same time as Butch on the list and you'll see a stark contrast between one player and the other.

I tend to look at the bigger picture and what's happening over the year(s) and not just 2 or 4 games. Anyway that only my point of view and know doubt others will looks at this differently.

 

[PepeSilvia]

On the other hand i see a lot more uplift in Harvey and his goal kicking style is good. Give Harvey the same time as Butch on the list and you'll see a stark contrast between one player and the other.

I tend to look at the bigger picture and what's happening over the year(s) and not just 2 or 4 games. Anyway that only my point of view and know doubt others will looks at this differently.

These two paragraphs are completely contradictory. How can you tell us that you don't make judgements over 2-4 games, but over a whole year and also make a baseless prediction about the next few years of Harvey's career?


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[Doctor Feel]

We kept daniel stewart till age 25, and we got him through the rookie draft in 2009.

Butcher has a lot more time yet.

 

[Doctor Feel]

The one thing I've realised from all this discussion is that two weeks between games is too long!

Two weeks is about right for good old duncy dunc, though.

 

[Doctor Feel]

I really hope we don't call up Butcher, we have a bad tendency to call him up JUST after he hits form. We need him to absolutely dominate for an extended period of time before we even consider playing him in the AFL. Personally, I wouldn't mind if he didn't play another game in the AFL side this year and made sure he got everything right without the pressure of the AFL, and attacked next pre-season like a man beast and sling shotted up the ranks.

I'm more than happy to let him rebuild himself mentally and set shot wise for this year.

 

[mic59]

Butcher is still double-grabbing too many marks. He took 5 marks yesterday. At the end I was standing I saw at least 2 relatively easy marks that were spoiled out of his grasp as he did not control the ball first time. There may have been a few at the other end too. In the last quarter I picked up on at least two marks that were second-grab when he should have taken them first time. Luckily his defender was running out of puff or those may have been spoiled too. From that it would seem the two main things that are a problem are kicking and marking. The marking seems more psychological as he takes marks easily at training when there is no implied pressure. Maybe he should play more up the field; as a full-forward the responsibility of his full-back is not really to beat him but to kill the contest and this makes it a lot more difficult to be a playmaker. Even Justin Westhoff finds it difficult to be effective when spending large parts of the game camped in the forward lines.

 

[klem22]

Butcher at best is a fair SANFL player he has to many issues to make it at the highest level imo.
Time to move on and look for something that does not come with all the issues he has, someone who can leave a real mark on the PAFC

 

[Doctor Feel]

Butcher at best is a fair SANFL player he has to many issues to make it at the highest level imo.
Time to move on and look for something that does not come with all the issues he has, someone who can leave a real mark on the PAFC

I highly doubt someone based in mt gambier has seen remotely enough of him to be passing any judgement, positive or negative.

 

[klem22]

I highly doubt someone based in mt gambier has seen remotely enough of him to be passing any judgement, positive or negative.

A reasonable deduction about the distance
However a few points about Butcher: He has more coverage than most on his deficiencies by those who are close up and see him regularly so my observations though distant have some currency.
Ive seen him play a few times at AFL level and also at SANFL level (thanks to the unheard of medium television) and those same deficiencies are apparent on the screen too.
Time to look forward imo and JB is not the future of Port. imo i think we can do better!

 

[raptalia]

He was in our best AFL 22 according to half of this board 2 games ago.

He does not need to be moved to defence. Pinch hitting there is fine but that's is.

Honestly, i'd rather we persist with him as a tall forward with no success until we delist him in 4 or 5 years than to move him to a position where we have pretty good depth already. We absolutely need to develop a tall forward. Plenty of top AFL key forwards weren't looking the business at 21 years of age, and we'll see two of them this week in Schulz and Hawkins.

Butcher is 23 and I do not think he has 4 or 5 years of time left, if he has we will be waiting until he is nearly 27 to produce. I have faith in those running our footy programme and if they say Butcher has to do more that is good enough for me.

 

[2powers]

Butcher at best is a fair SANFL player he has to many issues to make it at the highest level imo.
Time to move on and look for something that does not come with all the issues he has, someone who can leave a real mark on the PAFC

Just like Richmond moved sarge on that worked out well for them

 

[Nemisis]

I've been a knocker of Butch for a while now - however I am seeing a more relaxed footballer atm who has shown enough this year. Playing as the key forward has to be the hardest job in the team.
On his kicking - my two cents worth. His ball drop is erratic but I believe his main problem is how he doesn't flatten his foot enough when he makes contact with the ball.
I am officially back on the Butch Wagon.

 

[Shane_Mag]

I will always believe in the Butch. He will come good. He is not far off imo.

 

[Qwerty71]

Butch will come good when he sorts out his kicking. I think it's killing his confidence in his general game time as well.
What I am struggling to understand is why he hasn't been able to get a set shot routine sorted out. I heard Schulz talking about how he sorted out his routine to improve his kicking.
I'm sure the coaches are working over time but my understanding is they practice goal kicking every training session. So is it his confidence causing the problem or just a really bad ball drop which no one seems to be able to correct.

 

[VineValerian]

Butch's kicking provides comic relief most game days

He did look ok after half time last week tho - needs to be consistent each week.

Think I discovered his cure - when he kicks it perfectly, it misses by miles, but when he shanks it, it goes straight. Was aiming at the bowling green in the 3ed qtr and it went off the boot at around 45 degrees. The crowd erupted with a mix of disbelief and laughter.......... then the goal ump signalled a 6 pointer and the place went beserk. So aim well right, and allow his natural shank hook to go through the two big white ones

 

[Powerstufff]

... when he kicks it perfectly, it misses by miles, but when he shanks it, it goes straight. Was aiming at the bowling green in the 3ed qtr and it went off the boot at around 45 degrees. The crowd erupted with a mix of disbelief and laughter.......... then the goal ump signalled a 6 pointer and the place went beserk ...

Good reporting, I was there and this catches the vibe well.

 

[HaroldOliver]

Hocking said Butch had a fever before the game last Saturday. This is apparently the second time this year the coaches have made John play when he was reluctant to do so and I think he was probably more than just serviceable on this occasion.
I think the 'tough love' will help in the long run providing John learns to believe in himself.

 

[MALTSY]

Just like Richmond moved sarge on that worked out well for them

Valid point but there are many other examples where clubs have moved tall forwards on and it was proved to be the right decision.
It's probably always a punt.

 

[MALTSY]

Butcher was drafted from the Gippsland Power with pick 8 in the 2009 National Draft and since then has played just 23 games. If you check the goals kicked by Butchy for the Magpies you'll find most are kicked in the last quarter when the game was over... junk time as some say.

Don't get me wrong, i love to see him playing in the big league but his kicking skills and hand to leg coordination are not up to speed. On the other hand i see a lot more uplift in Harvey and his goal kicking style is good. Give Harvey the same time as Butch on the list and you'll see a stark contrast between one player and the other.

I tend to look at the bigger picture and what's happening over the year(s) and not just 2 or 4 games. Anyway that only my point of view and know doubt others will looks at this differently.

Agree. Yes..Harvey has only played a few games himself but looks to have excellent skills. His kicking technique is excellent and his ability to scoop up ground balls on the run is impressive for a big fella.

With experience and extra fitness, I'm sure he will improve his 4 quarter efforts and positioning. Time will tell.

When attending training sessions, have you noticed where he comparatively sits with fitness levels?

 

[philthy05]

he has his faults and has his strengths

anyone who thinks he should be cast aside has rocks in their head.

start throwing out names of key forwards butcher's age or younger who are clearly better.

now cross out any kids who were taken with a top 3 pick, father/son or expansion pre-draft kids (ie hogan) because we are never going to have access to that kind of key forward talent through those means.


now your probably left with anything from 0 to 3 names. spread across 18 teams.

if you have a key forward who has potential to develop into a good talent , you persist.

because if it was that easy to find a key forward everyone would have them

 

[x_les_x]

he has his faults and has his strengths

anyone who thinks he should be cast aside has rocks in their head.

start throwing out names of key forwards butcher's age or younger who are clearly better.

now cross out any kids who were taken with a top 3 pick, father/son or expansion pre-draft kids (ie hogan) because we are never going to have access to that kind of key forward talent through those means

now your probably left with anything from 0 to 3 names. spread across 18 teams.

if you have a key forward who has potential to develop into a good talent , you persist.

because if it was that easy to find a key forward everyone would have them

reid, gunston,darling,tom lynch (gold coast). reckon we'll stick by him until the 24/25 mark. Really confused with his routine though if it really is that bad and inconsistent wouldn't someone at least help him alter it whether it be timing or ball drop? a bit like how nick riewoldt changed his style

 

[philthy05]

reid, gunston,darling,tom lynch (gold coast). reckon we'll stick by him until the 24/25 mark. Really confused with his routine though if it really is that bad and inconsistent wouldn't someone at least help him alter it whether it be timing or ball drop? a bit like how nick riewoldt changed his style

thats 4 players.

reid is about the same age as butcher with no history of injury like butcher playing with a midfield thats been pretty dominant the last 4 years and has stats of 10 disposals 4 marks and 1 goal a game across his career. it's debatable if i set the mark as clearly better whether reid makes that mark.

 

[PowerfanMat]

I've got a feeling that Butch might be a surprise selection this week against the Hawks.

 

[AJJPAFC]

Butcher at best is a fair SANFL player he has to many issues to make it at the highest level imo.
Time to move on and look for something that does not come with all the issues he has, someone who can leave a real mark on the PAFC

His ground level work, chasing, tackling, and pressure around the ground is outstanding. To say that it's all about kicking goals is not fair. By that logic Westhoff is being out scored by several small forwards who also play midfield. The era of forwards needing to kick bags to be of value is long gone. I think he makes the forward line function better just by being there.

 

[AJJPAFC]

Hocking said Butch had a fever before the game last Saturday. This is apparently the second time this year the coaches have made John play when he was reluctant to do so and I think he was probably more than just serviceable on this occasion.
I think the 'tough love' will help in the long run providing John learns to believe in himself.

Indeed. He dominated that game in every way, except on the score board. He marked everything (After the first quarter). Was stronger on the lead then I have ever seen him, and contested really well. Every time his opponent got the ball he forced a ball up or boundary throw in. Was a very solid game.