Opinion Cameron Guthrie

[RegHickeyStand]

This seriously has me tearing my hair out. It's crystal clear and will take you less than two minutes to check.

DanA, I don't have a copy of that game. But you mention several players Guthrie was on who kicked goals. One of the worst things backmen can do in our team is not help out. They also play zone and then they go to whoever is in their area. Others would know this better than me, but it's something like that. How much work in the area was Guthrie doing before going out and chasing the opposition player, and was he definitely on that player, or did he go out on to him at that point?

Geelong's defence isn't just man-up/one-on-one 100%.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yep that's about how I see it I reckon. I will say though he's shown far more (so far) than Caddy has.

i rate what horlin smith has done this season much better than caddy and guthrie, the games he has played his had a massive influence with his contested work, his game against sydney was brilliant

 

[DanA]

DanA, I don't have a copy of that game. But you mention several players Guthrie was on who kicked goals. One of the worst things backmen can do in our team is not help out. They also play zone and then they go to whoever is in their area. Others would know this better than me, but it's something like that. How much work in the area was Guthrie doing before going out and chasing the opposition player, and was he definitely on that player, or did he go out on to him at that point?

Geelong's defence isn't just man-up/one-on-one 100%.

http://www.afl.com.au/video/smart-replay/?round=CD_R201301406&matchId=CD_M20130140605

You don't need to watch the whole game. Just click on the link and down the bottom if you click over the little orange g's it list the name of the person who kicks the goal. Click on Martin's and King's and you can get a 20 second clip of footage for that particular goal.

 

[DanA]

i actually cant praise this kid enough, i think the games he has played in baring the sub ones, he has been exceptional, consistently in and under the packs doing the hard stuff, one of our best players against sydney in the middle and played similar in his other games

if it wasnt for his injury against collingwood he would still be in there

Was brilliant against Sydney, possibly the difference in that match. But i'm of the opinion he's been ordinary as a sub which has been a couple of times from memory. Not the right sort for that role.

 

[Cattery]

He's not on his own there.

Assuming we have a fully-fit squad (besides Menzel) to choose from, here's the unquestioned locks in our best 22, as I see it:

Bartel, Mackie, Varcoe, Taylor, Kelly, Lonergan, Selwood, T.Hunt, Johnson, Duncan, Hawkins, Stokes, Christensen, Podsiadly, Motlop, Chapman, Enright

That's 17 spots, that I don't think can be reasonably argued about. Another two to be taken by McIntosh/West/Vardy/Blicavs/Simpson/Walker. And Brown, Smedts, J.Hunt, Corey, Schroder, Murdoch, Caddy, Rivers (I just can't lock him in at this stage, given the season he's had), Guthrie, Horlin-Smith, Sheringham, Thurlow, Stringer and Burbury to fight over the remaining three. That leaves some pretty decent players on the outside, looking in.

Pretty much agree, except "on present form" I'd have J Hunt and Corey as locks.
The interesting one is Rivers, if we want a third tall to replace Scarlett he gets the nod (depending on fitness) if not it opens the door for another small/mid defender; whatever way you look at it though there will be, as you say, a couple of players feeling a bit unlucky to miss out.

 

[Willo_]

Sorry if the tone came off harsh, I am not a talented writer

Me either.... i use lots of full stops all the time in an attempt to indicate a pause..... like this

It's about all I have

 

[year of the cat]

Just got back home from a day out (it was a nice day thanks for asking) and have had a chuckle reading today's entries in this thread. Aside from CE and DanA's argument over whether Guthrie did or didn't have 5 kicked on him against the Tigers, I reckon we are all pretty much in agreement! Team hug now needed and move on (or back to the Mitch Brown thread - far more to argue about on that front )

 

[Pivo]

You can add Murdoch into this list as well. He's been thrown all over the place - backline, forward and outside mid. Played as a 'small' forward yesterday - best game of the year. I prefer him there to Smedts - He's taller, faster, and seems to be a more accurate kick.

I wish people would keep this in perspective when judging the youngsters. THunt was originally a back pocket who has learned to play in midfield, Brown is a forward now learning how to defend and Guthrie was a midfielder now playing in the backline, who tagged Ablett pretty effectively in the Gold Coast game.
No one from the early 2000's drafts (Bartel, Enright, etc) had to learn to be this versitile.

I hated Murdoch's first few games this year and he was dropped accordingly but yesterday he was back to the touch he showed last year.

And was there when the whips were cracking early.

Went missing for a bit but that'll happen with young guys.

It was a good game by Murdoch. Just need more games like that one and less like the earlier ones this season.

 

[footscore]

http://www.afl.com.au/video/smart-replay/?round=CD_R201301406&matchId=CD_M20130140605

You don't need to watch the whole game. Just click on the link and down the bottom if you click over the little orange g's it list the name of the person who kicks the goal. Click on Martin's and King's and you can get a 20 second clip of footage for that particular goal.

Guthrie didn't do much wrong in that game.

First goal he had made his way up the ground alongside King who did a u-turn and sprinted forward as soon as Richmond received the turnover, Guthrie was hoping Mackie would spoil the footy out on front as most defenders do but he didn't, it was Riewoldt who perfectly tapped the footy into King's path.

3rd goal came about because Lonergan left his direct opponent to try and help out his teammate in Boris, Riewoldt was left all alone at forward 50 and Guthrie thought he was going for goal which gave Martin the jump on him.
Not even Boris would stop this one.

5th goal he wasn't even playing on King, he was playing on the sub Matt White in the centre of the ground.

 

[year of the cat]

Just for a bit of balance Footscore, are you able to put together some of his more positive highlights from that game? I went that night and thought he was pretty good. Took a couple of terrific contested marks down back from memory.

 

[catempire]

Awesome, awesome post. Absolutely worthy to quote the whole thing.

You're completely right about being wrong. No one likes it, and fewer admit to it. I'm wrong all the time (surprise, surprise). I wouldn't have picked Murdoch yesterday, but to his credit he kicked 3, showed stronger marking than I thought he's ever displayed at senior level, laid 7 tackles, and I'd argue more than did his job. Good on him and that's why none of us - NONE - are experts although we all think we are.

For some bizarre reason, every opinion now seems to have be at extremes. I can't recall anyone saying Guthrie would be a superstar; the consensus opinion I seem to have seen is that we think he's going to become a very good player for us. That's exactly how I feel. After 27 games I reckon he's progressing nicely. But apparently to some, every week he's rubbish. I'm afraid I don't understand that line of thinking.

And the myopia regarding him (and certainly Brown) to older players is striking. Just about every player on our list was either as bad or worse at the same stage. Every one of them. Except maybe Selwood. But apparently, some players - certainly not the favourites - have to deliver at the top level instantly. To me that's hypocritical.

An awesome post yourself, Partridge. I'm in exactly the same position about Murdoch.

It's starting to grate me quite badly that there seems to be no scope for measured optimism or pessimism about any player (or indeed, the team) on this board. Moderate praise or criticism is greeted by teeth gnashing from every direction. On the whole, people tend to be pretty moderate in their commentary about players. Those making bold calls of "superstar" or delist material are in the minority, yet get disproportionate attention and are conflated with the more measured commentary.

Perhaps it's just people needing something to debate and argue about...

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Ok...the Richmond game. My summary:

The 'bad'

First goal: Came about because we had no crumbers at the fall of the ball when Taylor kicked it to a Hawkins v Chaplin contest in our 50m. Consequently, Edwards, Knights and Grigg waltzed the ball out of defence and through the centre, kicking to a Riewoldt v Mackie contest. Riewoldt made a ruck-style tap to King (Mackie didn't get a finger on it) who ran in and goaled. Not much Guthrie could have done to stop that.



Second goal: High contact free, started as a good tackle by Guthrie. Classic Selwood-esque shrug. Good play by King.



Third goal: A pretty standard 'perfect entry pass; not much the defender can do there' kick from Riewoldt (10m in the clear) to Martin 55m out.



Fourth goal: Martin one out in the goalsquare. Guthrie appealed for a high contact/holding on free after the mark was paid. Maybe/maybe not. Richardson: 'Guthrie just had no chance in that one on one.'



Fifth goal: Lol...Guthrie was involved in the previous contest in the centre square. It was Horlin-Smith who tried to smother.



So, worst case scenario, Guthrie fought back well after a dirty first half, to keep his opponents goalless in the third and fourth quarters. And how many of those plays would have made you scream 'Guthrie...you idiot!!!' at the TV? I'd say roughly zero.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

And the good (it was a mixed bag)

Outpoints King completely to chop off a Deledio rebound.



Recognises the dangerous space as McGuane is kicking deep into the forward 50. Peels off his man to take a goal-saving mark in front of Vickery.



Attacks a dangerous ball inside Richmond's 50, with an assist from Murdoch and then makes a second-effort to lock up the Richmond player who took the spillage.



Cuts off an Edwards forward 50 entry, runs off from Vickery and then hits Taylor Hunt in the clear.



Again outpoints King in a contested marking situation (from a Cotchin kick). Immediately dishes to Mackie. Mackie to Taylor. Taylor to Selwood. Selwood to Corey. Corey to Christensen. Christensen back to Selwood. Goal from 50m. Bing, bang, boom.

 

[flatcat]

Awesome, awesome post. Absolutely worthy to quote the whole thing.

You're completely right about being wrong. No one likes it, and fewer admit to it. I'm wrong all the time (surprise, surprise). I wouldn't have picked Murdoch yesterday, but to his credit he kicked 3, showed stronger marking than I thought he's ever displayed at senior level, laid 7 tackles, and I'd argue more than did his job. Good on him and that's why none of us - NONE - are experts although we all think we are.

For some bizarre reason, every opinion now seems to have be at extremes. I can't recall anyone saying Guthrie would be a superstar; the consensus opinion I seem to have seen is that we think he's going to become a very good player for us. That's exactly how I feel. After 27 games I reckon he's progressing nicely. But apparently to some, every week he's rubbish. I'm afraid I don't understand that line of thinking.

And the myopia regarding him (and certainly Brown) to older players is striking. Just about every player on our list was either as bad or worse at the same stage. Every one of them. Except maybe Selwood. But apparently, some players - certainly not the favourites - have to deliver at the top level instantly. To me that's hypocritical.

I think if you are going to make sweeping statements about young players after a few games you're going to get it wrong because young players are inconsistent by nature and all have a long way to go. And they don't have the runs on the board our premiership heroes have that allows us to forgive them their mistakes or poor games. The positive thing is that nearly all of the young guys we've debuted lately have shown some good signs. Some more than others and it will be some time before we who makes it and who doesn't.
I don't like criticizing our players because they are out there having a go and doing something I couldn't do 1/1000th as good as any of them. But I have had a set on Brown because when
I have been at the games he's played, its evident that he attacks the ball with far less vigor than every other Geelong player. I don't notice it on TV but its very evident at the ground. That may be a reflection on his build and his wretched run with injuries, but at the end of the day he needs to turn that around. Its not about stats or disposal efficiency with him. He needs to be desperate at the ball if he wants to have a career. I really hope he does and can have enough luck that his body doesn't fail him in the process, because he obviously has skills. You have guys like Picken or King that make a career out of desperation and aggression alone. If Brown could add just a bit of that he'd be a good footballer.

 

[DanA]

Ok...the Richmond game. My summary:

The 'bad'

First goal: Came about because we had no crumbers at the fall of the ball when Taylor kicked it to a Hawkins v Chaplin contest in our 50m. Consequently, Edwards, Knights and Grigg waltzed the ball out of defence and through the centre, kicking to a Riewoldt v Mackie contest. Riewoldt made a ruck-style tap to King (Mackie didn't get a finger on it) who ran in and goaled. Not much Guthrie could have done to stop that.

Second goal: High contact free, started as a good tackle by Guthrie. Classic Selwood-esque shrug. Good play by King.

Third goal: A pretty standard 'perfect entry pass; not much the defender can do there' kick from Riewoldt (10m in the clear) to Martin 55m out.

Fourth goal: Martin one out in the goalsquare. Guthrie appealed for a high contact/holding on free after the mark was paid. Maybe/maybe not. Richardson: 'Guthrie just had no chance in that one on one.'

Fifth goal: Lol...Guthrie was involved in the previous contest in the centre square. It was Horlin-Smith who tried to smother.

So, worst case scenario, Guthrie fought back well after a dirty first half, to keep his opponents goalless in the third and fourth quarters. And how many of those plays would have made you scream 'Guthrie...you idiot!!!' at the TV? I'd say roughly zero.

5th goal I'll put my hand up and say I was completely wrong. Mistaken identity when I saw a blond bob. 100% I was wrong.

The first. I've got to ask was there any reason for him not to be goal side of King?

The second. A high tackle is poor technique.

The third. Not a lot he could do.

Fourth goal. Guthrie had a chance he wasn't strong enough to hold his ground

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

5th goal I'll put my hand up and say I was completely wrong. Mistaken identity when I saw a blond bob. 100% I was wrong.

The first. I've got to ask was there any reason for him not to be goal side of King?

The second. A high tackle is poor technique.

The third. Not a lot he could do.

Fourth goal. Guthrie had a chance he wasn't strong enough to hold his ground

First: When the ball goes from an attacking drive for us to an opposition inside 50 in the space of seven seconds, stuff like that happens.

Second: Fair enough. Johnson did exactly the same thing to King in the last quarter.

Fourth: The only one of our small defenders whom I'd give a chance against Martin in that scenario is Josh Hunt.

 

[footscore]

Enright would have no worries with Martin in a one on one either, he's too nimble and stronger than he actually looks is Enright.

 

[Willo_]

Enright would have no worries with Martin in a one on one either, he's too nimble and stronger than he actually looks is Enright.

In that particular one on one I would still worry....Martin is a man child with the strongest fend off almost going round, we saw Boris lose a couple of those to Gaz last week, obviously Ablett is a different beast altogether but my point is Martin in that position would beat most mid to small defenders in the league

 

[David the Cat]

Giving you too many likes lately....you owe me a beer.

 

[Willo_]

Giving you too many likes lately....you owe me a beer.

Haha sounds fair... I must be just talking to much sense

 

[bulletproof]

An awesome post yourself, Partridge. I'm in exactly the same position about Murdoch.

It's starting to grate me quite badly that there seems to be no scope for measured optimism or pessimism about any player (or indeed, the team) on this board. Moderate praise or criticism is greeted by teeth gnashing from every direction. On the whole, people tend to be pretty moderate in their commentary about players. Those making bold calls of "superstar" or delist material are in the minority, yet get disproportionate attention and are conflated with the more measured commentary.

Perhaps it's just people needing something to debate and argue about...

I think it is because it is a fairly even group after our superstars. And everyone has their favourites and wants them in the side. I'll admit I have a strong preference for Murdoch, though I got my way last year and he played ahead of Guthrie in the final and turned in a shocker (turns out he is a forward anyway). I'd also like to see Corey end his career with a final series and Horlin-Smith to play in the midfield. The logical person to go to achieve that end is Guthrie. It won't decide our fate and there is arguments both ways, it is just the players I prefer.

Also Guthrie is keeping the debate going with what could be favourably described as middling. The rate of improvement has been slower than other players who have played 25+ games. He has not gone backwards but he just needs a big game, I have never played dream team so it is not about stats. Keeping Ballantyne quiet in a few weeks would be great and I won't care if he touches it, keeping the 21st player at GWS quiet and not getting it yourself is below what we expect from a Geelong defender.

I'd keep him in for that Freo game by the way with the types they have up there and I might hold fire till then.

 

[bulletproof]

And just to add to the above they have to trust Guthrie more if he is going to be our lock down defender. So he needs the big jobs, Rioli, Thomas, Ballantyne, Jetta. At the moment, the coach still goes to Enright and Taylor Hunt, who he trusts.

If we have an old fashioned back pocket, use him, don't ask Enright to be everywhere.

 

[Partridge]

I think it is because it is a fairly even group after our superstars. And everyone has their favourites and wants them in the side. I'll admit I have a strong preference for Murdoch, though I got my way last year and he played ahead of Guthrie in the final and turned in a shocker (turns out he is a forward anyway). I'd also like to see Corey end his career with a final series and Horlin-Smith to play in the midfield. The logical person to go to achieve that end is Guthrie. It won't decide our fate and there is arguments both ways, it is just the players I prefer.

Also Guthrie is keeping the debate going with what could be favourably described as middling. The rate of improvement has been slower than other players who have played 25+ games. He has not gone backwards but he just needs a big game, I have never played dream team so it is not about stats. Keeping Ballantyne quiet in a few weeks would be great and I won't care if he touches it, keeping the 21st player at GWS quiet and not getting it yourself is below what we expect from a Geelong defender.

I'd keep him in for that Freo game by the way with the types they have up there and I might hold fire till then.

What's going to be just as interesting is where Scott plays him. They wouldn't have played him as a tagger unless they rate his ability to help out with midfield work. Unless they want to groom him there while T.Hunt is out, or Horlin-Smith. There are so many combinations of options now.

 

[bulletproof]

What's going to be just as interesting is where Scott plays him. They wouldn't have played him as a tagger unless they rate his ability to help out with midfield work. Unless they want to groom him there while T.Hunt is out, or Horlin-Smith. There are so many combinations of options now.

Yeh I think he could make a good tagger, he is very disciplined and quick. Also because he is good overhead and a lovely kick he can be threat if he drags his opponent deep, much like Ling was. Thinking back he played some good football in his first year in the midfield so maybe that is where he ends up.

 

[Partridge]

Yeh I think he could make a good tagger, he is very disciplined and quick. Also because he is good overhead and a lovely kick he can be threat if he drags his opponent deep, much like Ling was. Thinking back he played some good football in his first year in the midfield so maybe that is where he ends up.

It surprised me in the VFL when I saw him play that role as well. Then after the Gold Coast game maybe not such a surprise at all.

I suppose the evolution of the game has changed how players are thought of now within the club too. Whereas you would normally say "our ideal back 6" not so long ago, it's becoming apparent it's more like "our ideal back 9 - that 6 are chosen from". Much like Scott has said he doesn't see a best 22 so much as a best 30. He doesn't see his best ruck combination inasmuch it's a collective unit between all 5 of them. Makes perfect sense in terms of striving to have an even list that he can form an even team out of, even if individual components change.

The upshot of that I guess is he doesn't want one tagger in Taylor Hunt; he wants Guthrie and Horlin-Smith to be absolutely capable as well. He doesn't want Thurlow and Josh Hunt as small defenders; he wants them plus Guthrie plus Corey plus Enright of course while he's still around. He pretty obviously wants Mitch Brown to be able to perform a job at either end. If any of these things come to fruition it's a tremendous weapon to have.