Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[DKP1]

The AFL put him in charge of a multi million dollar expansion. GWS would have 5 flags by now with Clarko

"We all know" you don't know at all. Tell me how old scrimshaw is...hes 'older' than a draftee

LOL, you actually think being made the coach as a marketing gimmick means anything? They could've hired anyone to coach them at that point and they still would've finished bottom for 2-3 years. How embarrassing of you.

 

[Pessimistic]

LOL, you actually think being made the coach as a marketing gimmick means anything? They could've hired anyone to coach them at that point and they still would've finished bottom for 2-3 years. How embarrassing of you.

Well they did **** it up. Chocko sacked, SOS 'sacked' form carlton. Anyway you didnt explain how you can read clarkos mind - defelection is quite pathetic

 

[Sonny Hayes]

It's not just about what comes in as what goes out.

If you were starting tomorrow with no history as Hawthorn list manager, you might consider trading out some players in the 25-30 age bracket. Could go to the draft with 4, 22, 40 + 2-3 more picks in the first or second round. No one in the 31+ age bracket has any real trade value so aren't really worth focusing on.

How many of the below are potential/likely trades? Not many, if any (strike through for zero chance trades IMO). Most were brought in recently from other teams.

25 Impey, Sicily
26 O'Meara, O'Brien
27 Minchington, Patton, Wingard, Frost, Mitchell
28 nil
29 Gunston, Scully, Ceglar, Shiels
30 Breust

Well it is tough because those players have to want out before we can even trade them, we also can't push them out or you will get no value in return.

I am very strong that bottoming out is a terrible method if you do not remain competitive throughout.

Fixing a losing culture is incredibly hard to do and it is why i think list building is more than just assembling a group of 19-23 years olds that can all peak at the same time.

 

[Scotland]

Well it is tough because those players have to want out before we can even trade them, we also can't push them out or you will get no value in return.

I am very strong that bottoming out is a terrible method if you do not remain competitive throughout.

Fixing a losing culture is incredibly hard to do and it is why i think list building is more than just assembling a group of 19-23 years olds that can all peak at the same time.

Agreed, the teams that have found themselves in the biggest holes recently are those with big gaps in their list profiles. GC and GWS started off putrid with a bunch of 18 year olds and a handful of veterans with the odd star. Carlton, Melbourne, St Kilda, Freo, North at various stages have ended up with a disconnect between youth and experience. Hawthorn have a good 25-27 bracket, a failing 29+ group and the jury is out on the 19-24 year olds (the group most weakened by recent trade moves). If the 19-24 group doesn't develop then there will be an issue going forward.

 

[FISTO]

This week should be a little bit quieter from all the Hawk envy snipers out there!

how about this week?

 

[station to station]

As a Freo fan, I haven’t seen a Hawthorn team play that badly against us for nearly 20 years. Their excellent coach is papering over a lot of cracks.

 

[WWSD]

Another harsh reality check for the Hawks.

Last week does now look like an aberration..

Assuming North Melbourne lose to
Brisbane, it will be picks 3 and 21 by the end of next week. This is the best hand the Hawks have had in the draft in 12 years. I’ll take it. lol

 

[WWSD]

Hawthorn stand no chance of beating West Coast this week. Now if North Melbourne can beat Brisbane and Sydney can somehow knock GWS out that would be great.

By the end of this week it will be picks 3, 21, 40, 44, 58 and 64.

 

[TheFVK]

Gotta say I was pretty upset to see us push Chad out; in hindsight couldn't be happier with the move and struggle to see a role for him in a team sport.

A good example of the perils of personality trumping list management logic.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Gotta say I was pretty upset to see us push Chad out; in hindsight couldn't be happier with the move and struggle to see a role for him in a team sport.

A good example of the perils of personality trumping list management logic.

The irony is Chad be great at Port now

 

[TylerDurden]

As a Freo fan, I haven’t seen a Hawthorn team play that badly against us for nearly 20 years. Their excellent coach is papering over a lot of cracks.

Agree. We're miles off it. But to only lose by 16 points while playing that bad is strange.
Keen to see some kids in the next 6 weeks now that the season is done. He can start by dropping the captain.

 

[Pessimistic]

Zak Butters would be Hawthorn's best player right now if he were on your list. Unfortunately, instead of targeting quality youth, Crazy Clarko wanted Wingard, and nobody at the Hawthorn football club would dare oppose his wishes.

‘even with the pick that got butters, there’s no guarantee hawks would have got him. Where are the players drafted around that pick?

 

[Pessimistic]

Well it is tough because those players have to want out before we can even trade them, we also can't push them out or you will get no value in return.

I am very strong that bottoming out is a terrible method if you do not remain competitive throughout.

Fixing a losing culture is incredibly hard to do and it is why i think list building is more than just assembling a group of 19-23 years olds that can all peak at the same time.

‘see my thread. It can take 7-10 years to pay off. 70 if you do it like Carlton and melbourne

 

[Pessimistic]

Gotta say I was pretty upset to see us push Chad out; in hindsight couldn't be happier with the move and struggle to see a role for him in a team sport.

A good example of the perils of personality trumping list management logic.

win win trades are the best. You don’t need to ‘win’ them

 

[Pessimistic]

Assuming North Melbourne lose to
Brisbane, it will be picks 3 and 21 by the end of next week. This is the best hand the Hawks have had in the draft in 12 years. I’ll take it. lol

‘that’s the rub. Thread is pure triggering if posters want to laugh at us not taking early picks (which we rarely got anyway) but als laugh that coming in bottom four is proof our strategy is wrong. isn’t that the strategy we’ve been lectured we need to adopt? Is it somehow not legit unless we set out to finish low?

 

[Bradkli]

‘even with the pick that got butters, there’s no guarantee hawks would have got him. Where are the players drafted around that pick?

Picks 12- 20...included:

Butterrs- going to be a gun midfielder. great skills and pace- exactly what we need

Quaynor- dashing half back flanker with good skills- exactly what we need..our backline is terribly slow..CJ plays the same role but is a category B rookie and only has been upgraded because Henderson is injured. He will be lucky to be on our list in 2 years time.

Hatley- Struggling to get into GWS star studded midfield, but would fit into our currently midfield easily. Big bodied and different build to Worpel, Shiels, Omera and Mitchell. Again, another player we need

Clark- looks like an elite talent- can play defence and has played wing this season. Another player we currently need

Sturt- small forward- showed great signs before being injured- again, another player we need desperately. Our small forward stocks are the WORST in the AFL.

Duursma- could end up being the best of the lot and ironically the player that Port took with the pick we traded them. Already a top grade winger and will only get better. In 2-3 years time with McGluggage will be the best winger in the game. With Henderson, Scully and Smith cooked he is the EXACT player we need.

give me one of those and ryan burton over wingard EVERY single time!

 

[Mikey13G]

Wingard and Impey were very quiet last night against Fremantle and shadows of what they were like as Port players.

 

[Pessimistic]

Picks 12- 20...included:

Butterrs- going to be a gun midfielder. great skills and pace- exactly what we need

Quaynor- dashing half back flanker with good skills- exactly what we need..our backline is terribly slow..CJ plays the same role but is a category B rookie and only has been upgraded because Henderson is injured. He will be lucky to be on our list in 2 years time.

Hatley- Struggling to get into GWS star studded midfield, but would fit into our currently midfield easily. Big bodied and different build to Worpel, Shiels, Omera and Mitchell. Again, another player we need

Clark- looks like an elite talent- can play defence and has played wing this season. Another player we currently need

Sturt- small forward- showed great signs before being injured- again, another player we need desperately. Our small forward stocks are the WORST in the AFL.

Duursma- could end up being the best of the lot and ironically the player that Port took with the pick we traded them. Already a top grade winger and will only get better. In 2-3 years time with McGluggage will be the best winger in the game. With Henderson, Scully and Smith cooked he is the EXACT player we need.

give me one of those and ryan burton over wingard EVERY single time!

sorry we traded pick 18. Durrsma. If he had gone earlier, Many thought he would. we might have got the lad at 17, Sturt

so it’s Sturt or wingard. Let’s see how that goes. Burton can’t seem to get on the park

fremantle are the lowest scoring team after Adelaide, but I know little about sturt

 

[queensberryrules]

"Chad" may need a bit of a tickle.

Alistair may need a stronger counter coaching voice, his astray ideas need challenging.

 

[La Dispute]

Got rid of the wrong players. Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis would have been perfect to keep around with the club going through a transition period to guide the next group of young players developing in the club.

Gunston, Breust, McEvoy et al should have been the ones they got rid of, as they were players with real value. Now they’d have very little trade currency.

The JOM and Wingard trades are the cherry on top. Used a lot of cap space and multiple picks and players on guys who are just ok, and won’t get any better. They are now dead weight on the list.

Just a shambles all round from a list management POV.

 

[Pessimistic]

Got rid of the wrong players. Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis would have been perfect to keep around with the club going through a transition period to guide the next group of young players developing in the club.

Gunston, Breust, McEvoy et al should have been the ones they got rid of, as they were players with real value. Now they’d have very little trade currency.

The JOM and Wingard trades are the cherry on top. Used a lot of cap space and multiple picks and players on guys who are just ok, and won’t get any better. They are now dead weight on the list.

Just a shambles all round from a list management POV.

‘with your ‘wisdom’ hawks would be exactly where they are now, bottom 4. Even worse no Gunston or bruest What’s your point? We are happy to not be the teams which continually think they’ll be great in five years time

 

[Pessimistic]

"Chad" may need a bit of a tickle.

Alistair may need a stronger counter coaching voice, his astray ideas need challenging.

Hodge, but I hear he’s taken to queensland

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Without the academy there is a good chance Mills and Heeney wouldn't be AFL players.

What a complete load of crap, Millswas always going to play AFL, even his mum stated this publicly.

Sydney having an academy is a rort

 

[Gavin Excell]

Wingard and Impey were very quiet last night against Fremantle and shadows of what they were like as Port players.

Impey is an important player as can break lines and move the ball quickly.

He didn't look right last night. Might be carrying an injury or lacking match fitness

 

[La Dispute]

‘with your ‘wisdom’ hawks would be exactly where they are now, bottom 4. Even worse no Gunston or bruest What’s your point? We are happy to not be the teams which continually think they’ll be great in five years time

I think you’d be slightly better, but even if you were still bottom 4 at least you’d be in that position with a bunch of talented young players at your disposal, not littered with has beens and B-graders on inflated contracts.

Clarko is supposed to be a master coach. Surely it isn’t too much to suggest he’d get a young squad to be competitive again quickly?

Anyway, we’ve seen the head in the sand response from Hawks supporters for almost five years now - I’m not sure why Hawks supporters are reluctant to even entertain the possibility things might be better if they’d taken a different course of action.