Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Gavin Excell]

Wingard was an AA in only his second season and looked like he could become one of the greats. Now he's just a soft, below-average midfielder. Not unique to Hawthorn either, his last couple of years at Port were poor. Not sure what has gone wrong with him.

I thought he looked fit and sharp last night to be honest. He'll be ok

 

[La Dispute]

Ah yes because upsets never happen, acting like that is a mathematical miracle is not just wrong it is stupid.

Mental gymnastics would be discrediting all his good performances at the end of the season as dead rubbers, ignoring his good round 1 game because it was down hill skiing and shitting on him in particular for a terrible round 2 game.

You’re going in circles, and clearly don’t recall the end of last year at which point the Bulldogs were dominating and Adelaide were on a steep decline. You’re being disingenuous if you think there was any other result other than the Bulldogs winning that game.

And if the Bulldogs aren’t missing the finals then the Hawks aren’t making them, which render Chad’s performances in the back half of the season irrelevant. Getting Hawthorn to 9th place isn’t some evidence of any real heavy lifting.

Clearly you haven’t watched a lot of Chad at Port. He would play extremely well in a few games each year, be very good in a few more, and underperform in many others, and this pattern hasn’t been arrested at Hawthorn. Surely with a bit of introspection and understanding his personality you can see he doesn’t have the mentality to be a champion player, and he’s no longer a young guy either.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

You’re going in circles, and clearly don’t recall the end of last year at which point the Bulldogs were dominating and Adelaide were on a steep decline. You’re being disingenuous if you think there was any other result other than the Bulldogs winning that game.

And if the Bulldogs aren’t missing the finals then the Hawks aren’t making them, which render Chad’s performances in the back half of the season irrelevant. Getting Hawthorn to 9th place isn’t some evidence of any real heavy lifting.

Clearly you haven’t watched a lot of Chad at Port. He would play extremely well in a few games each year, be very good in a few more, and underperform in many others, and this pattern hasn’t been arrested at Hawthorn. Surely with a bit of introspection and understanding his personality you can see he doesn’t have the mentality to be a champion player, and he’s no longer a young guy either.

No because upsets happen, logically the Hawks weren't beating West Coast in WA. Were the Dogs favourites? Absolutely. Did i think the Crows were going to cause an upset? No. BUT THAT IS NOT A DEAD rubber. We needed to win all those games in the last few weeks of the season to have a chance and he performed and gave us a chance. He stood up.

Chad at Port i heard about him being lazy, disinterested and all those sorts of things. I don't know if they are true because i have never met him. What i do know is people have spoken glowingly about him around the club, he has trained hard, bought in to the team and have not heard a single negative thing about his personality since coming.

You came to a conclusion on him based on who you heard he was at Port and are just assuming that is all he will be.

 

[La Dispute]

No because upsets happen, logically the Hawks weren't beating West Coast in WA. Were the Dogs favourites? Absolutely. Did i think the Crows were going to cause an upset? No. BUT THAT IS NOT A DEAD rubber. We needed to win all those games in the last few weeks of the season to have a chance and he performed and gave us a chance. He stood up.

Chad at Port i heard about him being lazy, disinterested and all those sorts of things. I don't know if they are true because i have never met him. What i do know is people have spoken glowingly about him around the club, he has trained hard, bought in to the team and have not heard a single negative thing about his personality since coming.

You came to a conclusion on him based on who you heard he was at Port and are just assuming that is all he will be.

Of course they were, there was absolutely no pressure on Hawthorn at that point in the season. They’d lost a bunch of games to teams lower on the ladder, which meant they were underdogs going into their matches against higher ranked opponents.

If they lost the reaction would have been ‘Oh well, about expected’ and if they won they’d be adulated for overcoming the odds. You’re overestimating any real challenge at making the top 8, and overstating Chad’s performances in the process.

Amazing how willingly you’ll buy into the club’s narrative re: Chad’s attitude. What do you think club reps are going to say? “He’s been training poorly, and the guys don’t like him”

Don’t be naive.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Of course they were, there was absolutely no pressure on Hawthorn at that point in the season. They’d lost a bunch of games to teams lower on the ladder, which meant they were underdogs going into their matches against higher ranked opponents.

If they lost the reaction would have been ‘Oh well, about expected’ and if they won they’d be adulated for overcoming the odds. You’re overestimating any real challenge at making the top 8, and overstating Chad’s performances in the process.

Amazing how willingly you’ll buy into the club’s narrative re: Chad’s attitude. What do you think club reps are going to say? “He’s been training poorly, and the guys don’t like him”

Don’t be naive.

Okay what ever man i am done talking footy with you, you had an opinion on Chad before he came to the Hawks and you have no interest in letting it play out and already have a conclusion made about him

You have never met him yet will decide all the things you hear coming out of Port are true, yet you will ignore what is coming out of the Hawks and assume it is just PR spin.

Performing against the Cats, Giants and West Coast all very good teams is ignored because season is 'over'. Ignore Round 1 because it suits you but use round 2 as proof of him being flaky.

You are choosing to see what you want to see instead of just letting it play out and see what happens, have a nice day.

 

[Ambrosia]

La Dispute originally you called it a dead rubber (which it wasn't) now you've changed it to there was no pressure on the hawks. I'm definitely not a fan of Hawthorn but when a bloke does no preseason, gets injured, comes back and takes one game to get back up to speed then averages over 20 disposals and 5 clearances for the rest of the year I don't see how he could be considered flakey.

Wingard is the least of the Hawks problems.

 

[La Dispute]

La Dispute originally you called it a dead rubber (which it wasn't) now you've changed it to there was no pressure on the hawks. I'm definitely not a fan of Hawthorn but when a bloke does no preseason, gets injured, comes back and takes one game to get back up to speed then averages over 20 disposals and 5 clearances for the rest of the year I don't see how he could be considered flakey.

Wingard is the least of the Hawks problems.

Being a dead rubber and there being no pressure on the Hawks aren’t mutually exclusive concepts.

I’ve already explained why his performances are consistent with his history at Port. He plays well in favourable conditions, and is often unsighted when the heat is on. By the second half of the season Hawthorn were being slowly found out and Chad had done little in the first half which meant there was no expectation on him to perform. He then played well in games once Hawthorn’s season was done.

So of course there has been no reversal in my mind he is a conditional player who will play well when it suits him, but gets found out very easily when the team is under pressure.

I agree Hawthorn have bigger problems, but one emerging problem is Hawthorn’s lack of promising youth which the trade for Wingard has further prevented. Now instead of two quality young players (Burton, and lets say Duursma) they’ve got one pseudo-gun on a big contract in their mid 20s in a team that might be set to fall off a cliff. I know which option I’d much prefer going forward.

 

[La Dispute]

Okay what ever man i am done talking footy with you, you had an opinion on Chad before he came to the Hawks and you have no interest in letting it play out and already have a conclusion made about him

You have never met him yet will decide all the things you hear coming out of Port are true, yet you will ignore what is coming out of the Hawks and assume it is just PR spin.

Performing against the Cats, Giants and West Coast all very good teams is ignored because season is 'over'. Ignore Round 1 because it suits you but use round 2 as proof of him being flaky.

You are choosing to see what you want to see instead of just letting it play out and see what happens, have a nice day.

I’m surprised you don’t see the obvious double standards at play.

When he plays poorly you have all manner over excuses justifying his dodgy performances, but good games against higher ranked teams are evidence of business as usual? Please.

The reality is champion players perform in the vast majority of games they play, and having to point out some exceptions to their usual form line points towards a conditional player.

 

[Tig017]

No because upsets happen, logically the Hawks weren't beating West Coast in WA. Were the Dogs favourites? Absolutely. Did i think the Crows were going to cause an upset? No. BUT THAT IS NOT A DEAD rubber. We needed to win all those games in the last few weeks of the season to have a chance and he performed and gave us a chance. He stood up.

Chad at Port i heard about him being lazy, disinterested and all those sorts of things. I don't know if they are true because i have never met him. What i do know is people have spoken glowingly about him around the club, he has trained hard, bought in to the team and have not heard a single negative thing about his personality since coming.

You came to a conclusion on him based on who you heard he was at Port and are just assuming that is all he will be.

2 tackles in a game, playing midfield where opposition dominated possession...

 

[Foucault1989]

Refreshing to see some hawks fans finally accept the obvious, list is cooked and the strategy was not successfully executed.

As for critiques of Chad, too early to make this assessment. I thought he had a crack last night. Didn't always come off but he is the least of their worries.

Old list, lack flair, past their best. The decline is happening in front of our eyes.

 

[Tig017]

Refreshing to see some hawks fans finally accept the obvious, list is cooked and the strategy was not successfully executed.

As for critiques of Chad, too early to make this assessment. I thought he had a crack last night. Didn't always come off but he is the least of their worries.

Old list, lack flair, past their best. The decline is happening in front of our eyes.

The only ones accepting that notion are the ones who have been banned on the Hawthorn board.

The blind fanatics still exist, they're just hiding in the bunker for now. They'll swarm this thread again in droves after their next win.

 

[StevoBruiser]

Clarko isn’t going to pull a rabbit out of the hat, and he hasn’t previously. Hawks got their draft picks right, and they all peaked at perfect times. They have a weak list full of overrated players now.
In the past he got the best out of his players, but when the best he can get out of the current ones is average, what is he going to do?
They’ll be useless for a few years now.
I don’t think it’s too early to critique Wingard, 8 years in the system, teased us early days, will likely play another 80 average games, retire and be forgotten about.

 

[Red Bull]

No because upsets happen, logically the Hawks weren't beating West Coast in WA. Were the Dogs favourites? Absolutely. Did i think the Crows were going to cause an upset? No. BUT THAT IS NOT A DEAD rubber. We needed to win all those games in the last few weeks of the season to have a chance and he performed and gave us a chance. He stood up.

Chad at Port i heard about him being lazy, disinterested and all those sorts of things. I don't know if they are true because i have never met him. What i do know is people have spoken glowingly about him around the club, he has trained hard, bought in to the team and have not heard a single negative thing about his personality since coming.

You came to a conclusion on him based on who you heard he was at Port and are just assuming that is all he will be.

These blokes didn’t look so convinced of The Chad’s commitment ...

 

[Bradkli]

The only ones accepting that notion are the ones who have been banned on the Hawthorn board.

The blind fanatics still exist, they're just hiding in the bunker for now. They'll swarm this thread again in droves after their next win.

We play tigers next week who are a 3-5 goal better side than the cats. No chance.

North at marvel where we struggle to play. That game is 50/50 at best.

Then GWS away..no chance. Yes I know we beat them in the snow last year. Not happening again this year.

Will need a miracle to be 3-2 after 5 games.

 

[calman]

hawks recent sucess was built around, hodge, lewis, roughead, rioli and Mitchell, and franklin, none of those who have replaced them equal these players, time for a rebuild

 

[Jobe Watson]

Unfortunately I don't think Hawthorn are going to do too well this year.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Clarko isn’t going to pull a rabbit out of the hat, and he hasn’t previously. Hawks got their draft picks right, and they all peaked at perfect times. They have a weak list full of overrated players now.
In the past he got the best out of his players, but when the best he can get out of the current ones is average, what is he going to do?
They’ll be useless for a few years now.
I don’t think it’s too early to critique Wingard, 8 years in the system, teased us early days, will likely play another 80 average games, retire and be forgotten about.

This is the core they built around previously:

Hodge (pick 1), Roughead (pick 2), Franklin (pick 5), Lewis (pick 7), Rioli (pick 12), Birchall (pick 14), Shiels (pick 34), Mitchell (pick 36).

They totally turned it on its head this time, barely using the first two rounds of the draft for many years.

As for pulling a rabbit out of a hat... well he’s def capable, he kinda did it in 2008 with a heap of talent that was largely immature.

 

[StevoBruiser]

This is the core they built around previously:

Hodge (pick 1), Roughead (pick 2), Franklin (pick 5), Lewis (pick 7), Rioli (pick 12), Birchall (pick 14), Shiels (pick 34), Mitchell (pick 36).

They totally turned it on its head this time, barely using the first two rounds of the draft for many years.

As for pulling a rabbit out of a hat... well he’s def capable, he kinda did it in 2008 with a heap of talent that was largely immature.

I’ve heard a lot of people say Hawks will be good this year, Clarko will brew something up that throws them ahead of the pack again, as good a coach as he is, you still need the talent, which they now lack.
2008 at the time was an upset, huge effort, but a retrospective look at it shows they were full of young talent, who emerged in to elite players.

 

[Hawk Dork]

I’ve heard a lot of people say Hawks will be good this year, Clarko will brew something up that throws them ahead of the pack again, as good a coach as he is, you still need the talent, which they now lack.
2008 at the time was an upset, huge effort, but a retrospective look at it shows they were full of young talent, who emerged in to elite players.

GWS proves you can have all the talent the AFL can throw a secret ambassadorial payment at and still not succeed.

 

[StevoBruiser]

GWS proves you can have all the talent the AFL can throw a secret ambassadorial payment at and still not succeed.

Couldn’t agree more, they should have one in the bag by now.
I’m a Geelong man.

 

[Pessimistic]

Of course they were, there was absolutely no pressure on Hawthorn at that point in the season. They’d lost a bunch of games to teams lower on the ladder, which meant they were underdogs going into their matches against higher ranked opponents.

If they lost the reaction would have been ‘Oh well, about expected’ and if they won they’d be adulated for overcoming the odds. You’re overestimating any real challenge at making the top 8, and overstating Chad’s performances in the process.

Amazing how willingly you’ll buy into the club’s narrative re: Chad’s attitude. What do you think club reps are going to say? “He’s been training poorly, and the guys don’t like him”

Don’t be naive.

port have history. Burgoyne was reportedly one the outer’

 

[Pessimistic]

This is the core they built around previously:

Hodge (pick 1), Roughead (pick 2), Franklin (pick 5), Lewis (pick 7), Rioli (pick 12), Birchall (pick 14), Shiels (pick 34), Mitchell (pick 36).

They totally turned it on its head this time, barely using the first two rounds of the draft for many years.

As for pulling a rabbit out of a hat... well he’s def capable, he kinda did it in 2008 with a heap of talent that was largely immature.

how many times have you posted that? And how many times have I responded.

you can’t use early picks if you don’t actually get them

 

[Gavin Excell]

Port must be so pleased they had an Allan Bond equivalent in Hawthorn

 

[Bombfire]

Unfortunately I don't think Hawthorn are going to do too well this year.

They will really struggle.
Unfortunately, the Hawthorn way is redundant.
The Hawks are not a go to club anymore.

 

[Bombfire]

Port must be so pleased they had an Allan Bond equivalent in Hawthorn

They wouldn’t want to be watching Port tonight, Burton and Duursma showing exactly why chasing Wingerz was a very poor decision by Clarko and Wrighty.