Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Gavin Excell]

Wingard bashing is stupid, he had an injury interrupted season last year and finished it strongly.

He killed it round 1 and was far from our worst last night.

Plenty of things you can criticize but he should not be in the top 10.

Agree
I do wonder though whether he is being forced to play a role (midfield) that might not be him. He is an elite half forward goal kicker

 

[LordLucifer]

Looking at the Hawks line-up last night and here are the players they have secured from other clubs :

James Frawley
Sam Frost
Ben McEvoy
Ricky Henderson
Shaun Burgoyne
Jonathon Patton
Tom Mitchell
Chad Wingard
Jack Gunston
Tom Scully

That's just under half of the team which are imports, we all know Burgoyne has been fantastic but he is on his last legs and McEvoy is still only a one-trick pony (quite a good one in his day). They also went for Tyrone Vickery a couple of years back which was completely mesmerising at best, you can't sprinkle magic dust on Forrest Gump and expect him to automatically turn into Hulk Hogan.

I fully get what Clarko & the Hawthorn brains trust have been trying to do but it looks like it is starting to unravel a little now. You can bring in discards and players with purpose from other clubs IF you have enough 'cream' (i.e. about two-thirds) in the line-up to carry them. It looks like there is a major changeover taking place and they are now going to need a much bigger and more consistent output from the imports because the younger players just aren't there yet.

Frawley has been only "so-so" IMO, Frost makes a lot of errors in judgement & Patton has never ever taken a game by the scruff of the neck and murdered an opposition. They are three key position players who are crucial to the Hawks onfield success from now. If they don't step-up to a higher level, a loss like they received last night may be a little more frequent than previously expected.

 

[La Dispute]

Yes but when people wrongly criticize him as lazy i will dispute it, he was bad last night. Awful even, but i think he showed effort which i can not say about 15 others. Targeting him is because of his name alone.

Our captain was terrible last night and offered nothing, our midfield barely put up a fight, Morrison was soft like actually genuinely squibbed a contest and got no mention. Plenty of people to target over Chad off last nights game and unlike Chad a lot of them were not good in Round 1 either.

Chad is getting targeted because he was a guy you specifically added to be a quality player to add to your midfield mix. The expectation on him is far greater than someone like Morrison who isn’t AFL standard.

Over 12 months on and we’ve seen pretty much the same player as we saw at Port. Flaky, underwhelming and only plays well in favourable conditions like the Round 1 whitewash.

He’s symptomatic of Hawthorn’s current plight.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Chad is getting targeted because he was a guy you specifically added to be a quality player to add to your midfield mix. The expectation on him is far greater than someone like Morrison who isn’t AFL standard.

Over 12 months on and we’ve seen pretty much the same player as we saw at Port. Flaky, underwhelming and only plays well in favourable conditions like the Round 1 whitewash.

He’s symptomatic of Hawthorn’s current plight.

Hang on he spent most of last year injured? When was he flaky? How many players go to new clubs, get no pre season, get injured soon after coming in, gets injured as soon as he comes back in and just kills it?

He was not great last year but he ended it very well once he got some continuity, if he stays at the level of last season he deserves to cop criticism. Shitting on a bloke for getting injured is just dumb.

 

[LordLucifer]

Over 12 months on and we’ve seen pretty much the same player as we saw at Port. Flaky, underwhelming and only plays well in favourable conditions like the Round 1 whitewash.

A very accurate assessment.

Wingard can, and has in the past, have games of sheer brilliance. However, it is a rarity to see him do it when the team is under siege and coming from a long way behind.

Get 5-goals up and he then turns on the after-burners !!

 

[La Dispute]

Hang on he spent most of last year injured? When was he flaky? How many players go to new clubs, get no pre season, get injured soon after coming in, gets injured as soon as he comes back in and just kills it?

He was not great last year but he ended it very well once he got some continuity, if he stays at the level of last season he deserves to cop criticism. Shitting on a bloke for getting injured is just dumb.

He played well in a few dead rubbers once the season was over and Hawthorn were purely playing for a pride and to instill some optimism in their supporters for the next season.

Who’s shitting on him for getting injured?

The excuses have been rolling for 12 months - it’s time for him to start standing up when it matters. Last night’s non-attendance was quintessential Chad.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

He played well in a few dead rubbers once the season was over and Hawthorn were purely playing for a pride and to instill some optimism in their supporters for the next season.

Who’s shitting on him for getting injured?

The excuses have been rolling for 12 months - it’s time for him to start standing up when it matters. Last night’s non-attendance was quintessential Chad.

Dead rubbers? Last game of the year and we were playing West Coast in WA for a chance at finals and he was very good and helped us win, missing out in the end doesn't make them dead rubbers.

 

[Bombfire]

Chad is getting targeted because he was a guy you specifically added to be a quality player to add to your midfield mix. The expectation on him is far greater than someone like Morrison who isn’t AFL standard.

Over 12 months on and we’ve seen pretty much the same player as we saw at Port. Flaky, underwhelming and only plays well in favourable conditions like the Round 1 whitewash.

He’s symptomatic of Hawthorn’s current plight.

That’s right- Clarko went after a genuine quality midfielder in Shiel and had to settle for Wingerz.
Clarko thought there was enough in Wingerz to step up and get on the same level as Mitch and maybe JOM but it was folly.

 

[La Dispute]

Dead rubbers? Last game of the year and we were playing West Coast in WA for a chance at finals and he was very good and helped us win, missing out in the end doesn't make them dead rubbers.

Hawthorn needed some mathematical miracle to occur, and West Coast had already locked in a spot in the 8 (could have made the 4, but weren’t good enough).

For all intents and purposes, yeh, it was a dead rubber and another perfect example of Chad showing up on a select week and performing. The exception doesn’t prove the rule.

 

[Joao]

I haven't payed close attention but I just assumed Lewis was injured. I don't understand why he wasn't playing if not? Looks a great talent whenever I see him play.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Hawthorn needed some mathematical miracle to occur, and West Coast had already locked in a spot in the 8 (could have made the 4, but weren’t good enough).

For all intents and purposes, yeh, it was a dead rubber and another perfect example of Chad showing up on a select week and performing. The exception doesn’t prove the rule.

Hang on you are re writing history, all we needed was the Bulldogs to lose and for us to win. West Coast were playing for top 4 so both teams had a lot on the line.

He also played very well against the Giants a few weeks earlier in another must win game, played well against the Cats to keep our season alive and dominated the Suns in the 2nd last week (yes i know that one is a soft kill).

So season on the line and he was brilliant and again in Round 1 was very good, but because he was shit alongside 15 others last night people shit on him.

 

[Red Bull]

I haven't payed close attention but I just assumed Lewis was injured. I don't understand why he wasn't playing if not? Looks a great talent whenever I see him play.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I haven't payed close attention but I just assumed Lewis was injured. I don't understand why he wasn't playing if not? Looks a great talent whenever I see him play.

Gotta persist with Tim O'brien i guess, 6th year breakout for sure about to happen!

 

[Joao]

Gotta persist with Tim O'brien i guess, 6th year breakout for sure about to happen!

Is that seriously the reasoning? **** me O'Brien is one of those players who occasionally looks a million bucks and you think he is going to be gun until you realised he has done that for 5+ years and never actually got near average never mind gun.

Lewis takes contested marks (on good players) and kicks straight. All he needs from there is some fitness and decent leading patterns and he kicks 50 a season.

 

[Vindicater]

Gotta persist with Tim O'brien i guess, 6th year breakout for sure about to happen!

Good old O'Brien.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Is that seriously the reasoning? **** me O'Brien is one of those players who occasionally looks a million bucks and you think he is going to be gun until you realised he has done that for 5+ years and never actually got near average never mind gun.

Lewis takes contested marks (on good players) and kicks straight. All he needs from there is some fitness and decent leading patterns and he kicks 50 a season.

I can only assume so, he is in the team over him. Lewis was in match sim during the week so must be fit.

Tim O'brien is good depth, if you get an injury and he is coming in he can play a role and hopefully get you through. But after 6 years we have seen enough to know if he is best 22 you are not contending and expecting anything different is crazy.

 

[La Dispute]

Hang on you are re writing history, all we needed was the Bulldogs to lose and for us to win. West Coast were playing for top 4 so both teams had a lot on the line.

He also played very well against the Giants a few weeks earlier in another must win game, played well against the Cats to keep our season alive and dominated the Suns in the 2nd last week (yes i know that one is a soft kill).

So season on the line and he was brilliant and again in Round 1 was very good, but because he was shit alongside 15 others last night people shit on him.

Nice try.

The Bulldogs were never going to lose against a flattened Adelaide at home.

The reason you have to pick out good performances for Chad is because they are anomalies, while for consistently good players they’re unremarkable.

 

[Red Bull]

Good old O'Brien.

Got all the hallmarks of a real March champion has Tim ...

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Nice try.

The Bulldogs were never going to lose against a flattened Adelaide at home.

The reason you have to pick out good performances for Chad is because they are anomalies, while for consistently good players they’re unremarkable.

We needed 'a mathematical mircale' according to you. Admit you got it wrong.

You said he only performed in dead rubbers, he stood up at the end of the season when we needed wins. Not only was the last game not a dead rubber it was also very important to the other team.

 

[Bradkli]

There is no issue with Wingard..he will be a very good player for us. He’s an elite talent and a match winner. He had no preseason last year.

The issue is how we got him..unfortunately we missed out on our two main targets in Tom lynch and Dylan shiel..wingard was the next best and Clarko, Wright and co believed we were and are still in premiership contention...we aren’t and they will know that by the end of this season.

We gave up Ryan burton, who other than Sicily, worpel and Hardwick was our only decent player under 23 and a first round pick...we let burton go because we got jack scrimshaw for peanuts, who was to play the same role.. the issue is he can’t currently make our starting 22.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...we will look back in a few years time and this will be considered one of the worst trades in the last 5 years.

 

[La Dispute]

We needed 'a mathematical mircale' according to you. Admit you got it wrong.

You said he only performed in dead rubbers, he stood up at the end of the season when we needed wins. Not only was the last game not a dead rubber it was also very important to the other team.

Did you happen to see the odds for that particular game? You’re clearly not attuned to context, and that’s further supported by your assertion there was any real importance in your final string of games.

Hawthorn were never making the finals.

Some of the mental gymnastics are quite astounding.

 

[Bradkli]

Did you happen to see the odds for that particular game? You’re clearly not attuned to context, and that’s further supported by your assertion there was any real importance in your final string of games.

Hawthorn were never making the finals.

Some of the mental gymnastics are quite astounding.

Correct...we had no right to even be a mathematical chance to make finals last season...yes we had some great wins in the back half of the season, but we lost to Melbourne, St Kilda, Essendon, Sydney and North Melbourne over the course of the year.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Did you happen to see the odds for that particular game? You’re clearly not attuned to context, and that’s further supported by your assertion there was any real importance in your final string of games.

Hawthorn were never making the finals.

Some of the mental gymnastics are quite astounding.

Ah yes because upsets never happen, acting like that is a mathematical miracle is not just wrong it is stupid.

Mental gymnastics would be discrediting all his good performances at the end of the season as dead rubbers, ignoring his good round 1 game because it was down hill skiing and shitting on him in particular for a terrible round 2 game.

 

[Sheepey]

Wingard was an AA in only his second season and looked like he could become one of the greats. Now he's just a soft, below-average midfielder. Not unique to Hawthorn either, his last couple of years at Port were poor. Not sure what has gone wrong with him.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Looking at the Hawks line-up last night and here are the players they have secured from other clubs :

James Frawley
Sam Frost
Ben McEvoy
Ricky Henderson
Shaun Burgoyne
Jonathon Patton
Tom Mitchell
Chad Wingard
Jack Gunston
Tom Scully

That's just under half of the team which are imports, we all know Burgoyne has been fantastic but he is on his last legs and McEvoy is still only a one-trick pony (quite a good one in his day). They also went for Tyrone Vickery a couple of years back which was completely mesmerising at best, you can't sprinkle magic dust on Forrest Gump and expect him to automatically turn into Hulk Hogan.

I fully get what Clarko & the Hawthorn brains trust have been trying to do but it looks like it is starting to unravel a little now. You can bring in discards and players with purpose from other clubs IF you have enough 'cream' (i.e. about two-thirds) in the line-up to carry them. It looks like there is a major changeover taking place and they are now going to need a much bigger and more consistent output from the imports because the younger players just aren't there yet.

Frawley has been only "so-so" IMO, Frost makes a lot of errors in judgement & Patton has never ever taken a game by the scruff of the neck and murdered an opposition. They are three key position players who are crucial to the Hawks onfield success from now. If they don't step-up to a higher level, a loss like they received last night may be a little more frequent than previously expected.

I think what’s been so different - and what this whole thread was about - is they’ve actually tried to get the cream from other clubs rather than the traditional path, the early rounds of the draft (I called it the Top 40).

They’ve traded out a lot of draft picks.

They absolutely nailed it with Mitchell, mind you. Dunno about the rest.