Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[juss]

I thought Lewis' thoughts were interesting, it's not often you hear Clarkson questioned or challenged by the media.

Just thinking on from whether he does have the hunger to build them up to a premiership contender again, as they look a few years away from it for mine. After 15+ years at the helm, it's a good question, at what point do the players and club need a fresh look and a new voice? At what point does a coach become stale in his environment and need a fresh start himself to get the best out of himself and the club he leads?

 

[boncer34]

Probably won't be 37 years though...

For the last 10 years we've known you're coming... so said the membership campaign slogan...

No, just the standard by which Danny Del Re was measured...

On that logic Lombardi, Klopp, Guardiola, Ferguson, Sheedy, Hafey, Stein, Sacchi, McHale, Busby, Jackson are all sh*t coaches/managers.

Not you Hawk Francais, but the clown to whom you replied.

Looking at the law of averages, we'll win another 13 before you win another...

It's a shame Clarko wants to keep sending out the land of the giants then!

A Port Adelaide fan talking about club culture? FM...

If you measure the greatest purely on AA caps then you know nothing...

And we'll get 5-7 years out of Chad and you'll get 1-2 out of Eddie... simple economics.

Consider this a lesson in the art of multi quoting.

 

[La Dispute]

And we'll get 5-7 years out of Chad and you'll get 1-2 out of Eddie... simple economics.

Ahh if it comes down to paying a guy 700k per year to play well when he feels like it v not having to pay a player as his previous club is covering his salary I'm definitely going to take the latter option.

 

[Slysh]

Ahh if it comes down to paying a guy 700k per year to play well when he feels like it v not having to pay a player as his previous club is covering his salary I'm definitely going to take the latter option.

And this opinion of Chad is lazy, his work ethic and effort has been nothing short of great since coming to the Hawks.

 

[La Dispute]

And this opinion of Chad is lazy, his work ethic and effort has been nothing short of great since coming to the Hawks.

You're completely delusional.

His workrate last week, and in the two other losses (as already stated, to which has kicked 0 goals and had less than 40 touches in total) has been embarrassing.

Guarantee though he will come out and kick 3-4 against a teetering Melbourne lineup and that'll somehow mitigate the stinkers. The reality is he will only perform when the team is. That's the case for a number of players across the league, but it's depressing when it's one of the guys you've brought in to be one of the prime movers of the squad.

I'd be seething if my club traded two quality young players (one of which was already at the club and actually wanted to be there) for a complete showpony.

 

[Slysh]

You're completely delusional.

His workrate last week, and in the two other losses (as already stated, to which has kicked 0 goals and had less than 40 touches in total) has been embarrassing.

Guarantee though he will come out and kick 3-4 against a teetering Melbourne lineup and that'll somehow mitigate the stinkers. The reality is he will only perform when the team is. That's the case for a number of players across the league, but it's depressing when it's one of the guys you've brought in to be one of the prime movers of the squad.

I'd be seething if my club traded two quality young players (one of which was already at the club and actually wanted to be there) for a complete showpony.

No he had poor games, he didn’t lack effort in any of them. He played as a stay at home small forward in a team completely and utterly smashed. Not many hve good games in that situation.

it’s funny Burton has gone backwards as a player since his first full season and yet seems to be growing as a player in the eyes of everyone.

After his rising star year he was average in his last year At the Hawks and and has been solid in his 2 at Port.

I still like him but Scrinshaw has shown as much in the past 2 years as Burton. Both tidy ball users, good over head and can rebound the ball. Hopefully both keep improving but losing Burton is not going to be keeping me up at night at this stage.

 

[Hot Diggity]

Head coach after what 2 or 3 years?

Hope note. Poor man manager.

 

[F_therest]

I thought Lewis' thoughts were interesting, it's not often you hear Clarkson questioned or challenged by the media.

Just thinking on from whether he does have the hunger to build them up to a premiership contender again, as they look a few years away from it for mine. After 15+ years at the helm, it's a good question, at what point do the players and club need a fresh look and a new voice? At what point does a coach become stale in his environment and need a fresh start himself to get the best out of himself and the club he leads?

Not sure if just me, but to me he seems to be getting more and more frustrated and grumpy publicly...kinda like Mick Malthouse.

He's achieved all there is to achieve in the game and produced an amazing feat of 3 premierships in a row...no higher high than that. Since then tried to buy immediate success with the likes of JOM/Mitchell/Wingard/Impey/Scully/Patton. When you've been to those heights and have that 'revered coach' status I think he's become impatient and wants to be contenders...i don't think he'd be able to go through the whole rebuild again, nurture all those relationships etc. And that's understandable.

Hawks have a lot of old players they'll need to move on and while they have a few promising kids, it doesn't look premiership contending worthy.

 

[Scotland]

Still think they let go of Lewis, Hodge and Mitchell too early when they did.

They weren't that great in 2016 with all 3 and missed the finals in 2017 with Hodge still playing (and retiring for a few days). Tom Mitchell and O'Meara were both top 5 in their B&F in 2018 when they next made finals so had a short term impact. You can definitely argue they got nothing for those 3 guys except cap space but if they kept them on they wouldn't be any better or worse off right now and on 2016 form they wouldn't have challenged in 2017-2019.

 

[FairKouta]

Hawthorn has a good core
Omeara mitchell worpel day sicilly impey wingard scrimshaw. They are Jeremy cameron harris Andrews and tom papely away from contending.

 

[ChappyUK]

Hawthorn has a good core
Omeara mitchell worpel day sicilly impey wingard scrimshaw. They are Jeremy cameron harris Andrews and tom papely away from contending.

Cats are getting Cameron so that's one off the list.

 

[Scotland]

Hawthorn has a good core
Omeara mitchell worpel day sicilly impey wingard scrimshaw. They are Jeremy cameron harris Andrews and tom papely away from contending.

But do they have the currency and cap space to acquire any of those players?

Cameron is the only free agent in that lot.

 

[RudyBlue]

I think Hawthorns list strategy was a viable option. Going after Mitchell and o meara at their ages (22ish) to replace the aging stars rather than take a risk on a draft pick that may be half as good was a clever move. Especially with FA - having the team still strong was the right gamble in an environment where you can get talent for free.

Don't have an issue with Scully and Patton either as they were basically free. Some say they take list spots but those spots would have gone to 4th nd 5th round draft picks who usually don't even play a game so they're ahead there.

Where they went wrong IMO was with the philosophy that you fulfil your commitment to a player regardless of cost because 'that will make players want to work for you' (ie attract free agents). Other clubs leveraged that commitment which saw Hawthorn pay way too much for O Meara and Wingard. They needed to be able to walk away from those deals. Was a misnomer anyway as FAs have not picked Hawthorn- they don't care about the 'environment' that much - players care about the likelihood for success and contract and we have not been very convincing on the first of those.

Mitchell and O’Meara were good moves.

Wingard is quality but the deal was shithouse.

Should’ve attacked the 2018 draft like you attacked 2001 (somehow). Trade a Breust/Gunston?

This is not a hindsight call, I said it at the time.

 

[FairKouta]

But do they have the currency and cap space to acquire any of those players?

Cameron is the only free agent in that lot.

No they don’t my point was if they can fill those voids then they contend.

 

[Scotland]

No they don’t my point was if they can fill those voids then they contend.

But you can say that about most teams. If we replaced Kennedy, Hurn and Jetta with 3 AA-calibre equivalents in their prime we'd be a very short priced favourite in 2021. But that's not feasible. We've put a lot of eggs in the 2020-2021/22 basket with trading for Kelly, signing up Gaff, Darling, McGovern etc.

Footy is funny because other than player ages and contract lengths (and opinions on how good they are), no one really knows a teams salary cap position beyond that it's 95-105% of the total amount. You can be garbage in the NBA but if you have $120m worth of contracts with half of them expiring there is optimism about signing new players. Plus their top draftees are usually ready to go from day one.

That aside, Hawthorn will win this week and be back ahead of 50-50 W-L. Mark it down. 4-5 goal margin, which in 2020 is more like 6 or 8 goals.

 

[WWSD]

But do they have the currency and cap space to acquire any of those players?

Cameron is the only free agent in that lot.

Yes.

There’s 27 Hawthorn players out of contract at the end of the year.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Mitchell and O’Meara were good moves.

Wingard is quality but the deal was shithouse.

Should’ve attacked the 2018 draft like you attacked 2001 (somehow). Trade a Breust/Gunston?

This is not a hindsight call, I said it at the time.

No one is going to give up a first rounder for gunstons or breust in the draft age.
When hawks traded out the likes of Thompson and hay (2004, not 2001), the draft was the top up option, and not viewed like it is now.
Hell, the same yr, hawthorn traded pick 10, and got pick 7 and a player in return.

 

[FairKouta]

But you can say that about most teams. If we replaced Kennedy, Hurn and Jetta with 3 AA-calibre equivalents in their prime we'd be a very short priced favourite in 2021. But that's not feasible. We've put a lot of eggs in the 2020-2021/22 basket with trading for Kelly, signing up Gaff, Darling, McGovern etc.

Footy is funny because other than player ages and contract lengths (and opinions on how good they are), no one really knows a teams salary cap position beyond that it's 95-105% of the total amount. You can be garbage in the NBA but if you have $120m worth of contracts with half of them expiring there is optimism about signing new players. Plus their top draftees are usually ready to go from day one.

That aside, Hawthorn will win this week and be back ahead of 50-50 W-L. Mark it down. 4-5 goal margin, which in 2020 is more like 6 or 8 goals.

Yup absolutely agree. My point really is they have a good enough core now if they can fill the void in time however that may be either through free agency/ trade/current players coming on, again that is unlikely but they can contend. It’s a huge ask. It’ll be interesting how they go about it. Hawks have missed a few free agents/ trade targets so it won’t be easy. This will be a test for this highly well run organisation and perhaps the greatest modern day coach.

 

[Vindicater]

Will Scrimshaw actually become a good footballer? I see him touted here as a future A grader. Screams Trent Mackenzie to me. Soft half back flanker

He has looked good when he has played.

Problem for Hawthorn is that he looks like he will breakdown after only a game or two.

 

[Pessimistic]

Cats are getting Cameron so that's one off the list.

‘another team topping up. That is a problem with the approach. Too many teams doing thesame thing. Not too many off loading players in their prime

 

[boncer34]

No one is going to give up a first rounder for gunstons or breust in the draft age.
When hawks traded out the likes of Thompson and hay (2004, not 2001), the draft was the top up option, and not viewed like it is now.
Hell, the same yr, hawthorn traded pick 10, and got pick 7 and a player in return.

10 + 37

 

[juss]

‘another team topping up. That is a problem with the approach. Too many teams doing thesame thing. Not too many off loading players in their prime

I reckon there has been a shift in the mantra of AFL clubs recently, more towards the American NFL/NBA and even local NRL model at times, where teams will look to top up and "win now" at the expense of long term development. Mid level teams will often spend big money or trade draft assets for older, established guns with a handful of years in them. Theyll try and get 2-4 over a couple of years and try a quick smash and grab at a championship even if they need to sell a 10+ year top draft prospect to do it.

Increased player movement of FA and trading future picks gives the flexibility for this strategy. We haven't quite seen it for long enough in the AFL to see if it works, but in other sports teams can become contenders in one big off season.

 

[Back Pocket Rocket]

10 + 37

And the player was Bo Nixon. He was a God!

 

[ChappyUK]

‘another team topping up. That is a problem with the approach. Too many teams doing thesame thing. Not too many off loading players in their prime

I doubt we get him but if GWS keep playing s**t and starving him of entries it may just happen.

We also have 3 1st rounders this year so hardly just topping up.

 

[Pessimistic]

I reckon there has been a shift in the mantra of AFL clubs recently, more towards the American NFL/NBA and even local NRL model at times, where teams will look to top up and "win now" at the expense of long term development. Mid level teams will often spend big money or trade draft assets for older, established guns with a handful of years in them. Theyll try and get 2-4 over a couple of years and try a quick smash and grab at a championship even if they need to sell a 10+ year top draft prospect to do it.

Increased player movement of FA and trading future picks gives the flexibility for this strategy. We haven't quite seen it for long enough in the AFL to see if it works, but in other sports teams can become contenders in one big off season.

Isn't it the case that draftees in US sports are first team ready due to college systems?

13 of the hawks most experienced players are trade ins, it's a couple too many and natural progression will fix that. Its rare to find any AFL team with less than 7, even teams which have used a lot of draft picks.